Amnesty Hearings

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Molete, may I remind you you're still under oath?

MIRIAM MOLETE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Strydom.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM: Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, my attorney is still in the process of finalising that bundle which was referred to. It will be ready soon but I thought that I cannot delay the proceedings any further. Statements which I'm going to use to cross-examine this witness has been handed to all the parties on Friday so I will continue with my cross-examination and in due course that bundle will be ready. So the statements I'm referring to are statements made by this witness, Miriam Molete and a statement made by Florence Molete. I was informed the party has been handed these documents. My learned friend now shakes his head so he hasn't got a copy. I'll try to get a copy to hand over to him.

MR LAX: Mr Strydom, we don't have Florence Molete's statement. We've only got a hand-written one by Miriam and a typed one by Miriam.

MR STRYDOM: Oh, thank you Mr Lax, what I will do is I won't start with Florence until the bundle is available.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what is the situation, is the situation that this statement by this witness will form part of the bundle that's been prepared?

MR STRYDOM: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, okay very well.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, for the record we don't have any statements, either of Florence Molete or Miriam Molete.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I will start with my cross-examination without reference to these statements and when they become ready I will deal with the statements. Thanks Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes you may proceed.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you.

Ms Molete just as an introduction I want to inform you that I'm not going to cross-examine you about the tragedy that happened at the house. Apart from certain issues you stated that the person who attacked you and Mita was a White person, so I'll ask you certain questions in that regard. You also said that you saw two people in camouflage uniforms. I will ask you certain questions about that and then you stated that you saw a Koyoco driving towards the factories. I'll ask you about that.

Now firstly, you stated that your husband was shot. I want to put to you and maybe you can comment on this statement that according to the post-mortem report and other documentation in my possession, your husband died as a result of stab wounds. Are you prepared to accept that?

MS M MOLETE: No I don't accept that.

MR STRYDOM: Why do you say your husband was shot?

MS M MOLETE: I said that my husband was hacked with a panga while he was in the house and then ultimately he was shot from behind on the upper shoulder.

MR STRYDOM: Were you there when he was shot or not?

MS M MOLETE: No, I wasn't present.

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Strydom, are you saying that, let me just clarify this, are you saying her husband wasn't shot at all or that he didn't die as a result of the gunshot because there's two quite different propositions.

MR STRYDOM: What I'm putting is according to the post-mortem report no bullet wounds were marked.

MR LAX: That's different.

MR STRYDOM: Or was found.

What I want to know from the witness on what basis do you say that your husband was inter alia shot?

MS M MOLETE: The reason why I say that is because my brothers and sisters were left behind and then after that the corpses were examined. The people refused, the police refused people to see the corpses and they removed the bullet and when I arrived at the hospital I was told that my husband died as a result of gunshots. He had three gun wounds that is why I say he died as result of gun wounds.

MR STRYDOM: You just mentioned that the bullets were removed or some reference to that. Can you just explain what do you say about that?

MS M MOLETE: That is what I was told by my brothers because they were there. When they arrived at the hospital they told me that.

MR STRYDOM: So you've got no personal knowledge about the fact that your husband was shot?

MS M MOLETE: Mr Strydom, I said when I arrived at the hospital I asked my brothers whether my husband is dead. They told me about the problems that they had and they said it to me my husband had died as a result of three bullet wounds.

CHAIRPERSON: We understand what you were told at the hospital. What counsel wants to find out is, of your own personal knowledge do you know whether you husband was shot?

MS M MOLETE: That is what they told me but the only thing that I saw was that he was hurt while I was with him in the house. I only heard about the shots the following day when they told me that my husband was shot three times.

MR STRYDOM: I want you to look at Exhibit J, that is a plan of Boipatong including Slovo Park. I want you to indicate approximately where 17 Slovo Park is. Do you see the township itself and on the right hand side of Exhibit J you see drawings of which purport to be houses or shacks?

MR BERGER: Can I assist?

MR STRYDOM: Yes please.

Do you understand the map?

CHAIRPERSON: Any progress.

MR BERGER: The witness is indicating something about Slovo Park near the corner of Bapedi Street.

MS M MOLETE: Yes, that is at the corner of Bapedi from the shops, it is just near the corner.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, if one will take the route from the shops going towards Slovo Park you get to the houses there at Slovo Park, is that correct?

MS M MOLETE: Yes that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Now number 17, the place where you were that night. In relation to the corner of Bakwena and Bapedi Street, can you just indicate where that position is, or that house?

MS M MOLETE: Bakwena Street is not indicated here, I can't see it.

MR STRYDOM: The street that runs between the Boipatong Township and Slovo Park, do you see that? That's the last street.

MS M MOLETE: Unfortunately it's not a good photostat copy but you can see Bakwena is the last street.

MS M MOLETE: I cannot see clearly from this map, it's dark.

MR STRYDOM: But just accept the last street is Bakwena Street and obviously then it intersects with Bapedi Street, it forms a T-Junction. What I want to know ...(intervention)

MS M MOLETE: Yes I can see it now.

MR STRYDOM: From that T-Junction between Bapedi and Bakwena Street, can you indicate from that position where your or house 17 more or less is or was?

MS M MOLETE: Yes I do.

MR BERGER: Ms Molete is indicating but I don't know if it's helpful because I don't know on your map but ours 17 is indicated. Is it indicated on yours as well?

MR STRYDOM: No, maybe just give me your indication.

MR BERGER: It's near the corner of Bapedi and Bakwena and it's - there's a row of houses, can you see that?

MR STRYDOM: Yes?

MR BERGER: And then just below it there's one, two, three, four?

MR STRYDOM: Yes?

CHAIRPERSON: Is there a 15 on your map? Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Yes there is a 15, the one that I thought was indicated as 17 is actually 97.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, alright.

MR BERGER: And then there's a 73 I think

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that's right here.

MR BERGER: I just want a broad indication where the witnesses house or where she was, not the exact spots.

MR BERGER: And Ms Molete has also indicated 15 as to where her husband was shot or was killed.

MR STRYDOM: How far from that house where your husband was killed was the shack you were in that night? Was it close by?

MS M MOLETE: They were neighbours.

CHAIRPERSON: So 15 and 17 were neighbours? Alright.

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So house number 17 is in the vicinity of the corner of Bapedi and Bafokeng but would be more along Bakwena Street which is where number 15 is indicated.

MS M MOLETE: That is correct, it's at the corner of Bakwena and Bapedi Street.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, not Bafokeng, Bafokeng is right at the top of the township, just below.

CHAIRPERSON: I beg your pardon, it's Bakwena I'm referring to.

MR BERGER: Bakwena and Bapedi.

CHAIRPERSON: But it would be more ...(intervention)

MR BERGER: To the north of that corner?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, along Bakwena just where number 15 is indicated. Thank you.

MR STRYDOM: Now in your evidence in chief you made reference to Apollo lights. From that position of that house, where will you find the closest Apollo light?

MS M MOLETE: The nearest Apollo light is at the corner of Majola Street.

MR STRYDOM: The corner of Majola and which street?

MS M MOLETE: It's at the corner of Majola and the street next to Slovo.

MR STRYDOM: That's Bakwena Street?

MS M MOLETE: Yes that is correct, it's Bakwena.

MR STRYDOM: I want to put to you that that's not correct. The two closest Apollo lights you will find firstly on the corner of Bakwena and Mashweshwe Street, that's towards the right hand corner of the map in front of you, Exhibit J so it's two streets lower than Majola. Corner Mashweshwe and Bakwena.

MR BERGER: If you can just let me find Mashweshwe I'll indicate it.

MR STRYDOM: That's the last street.

CHAIRPERSON: I think Mashweshwe is the one that runs parallel Baralong.

MS M MOLETE: Yes it's at Mashweshwe Street, next to the tuck shop, it's just facing Florence's kitchen.

MR STRYDOM: And the other Apollo lighting, that vicinity or let me put it, the other one is not too far away, is the Apollo light on the corner of Bapedi and Morkari Avenue. Do you know if there's an Apollo light as well?

MS M MOLETE: Yes I know.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, do you have comments?

MS M MOLETE: No.

MR BERGER: Ms Molete wants to explain to me, can you ask her to explain to everyone what's she's indicating about the Apollo lights?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, let me put it this way, I pointed to you according to my information you will find the two Apollo lights just to make it clear on the corner of Bapedi and Morkari Avenue and on the corner of Bakwena and Mashweshwe Avenue, do you agree with that or don't you agree? Can you explain?

MS M MOLETE: It is not in Mashweshwe but it's in Makwena, just next to the tuck shop.

MR BERGER: No, she said Majola. The interpreter translated it as Makwena but the witness said Majola.

MS M MOLETE: It is between Baralong and Majola on the side of Slovo Park.

MR STRYDOM: You've mentioned the tuck shop, maybe you must indicate where is that tuck shop?

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, as far as the witness is concerned, the nearest Apollo light is at the corner of Majola and Bakwena is that right?

MS M MOLETE: No, Baralong Street.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, Baralong and Majola don't intersect, they run parallel to one another.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.

MR BERGER: So what the witness is indicating is that the Apollo light is on the side of Slovo Park, I would assume that by that she means in Bakwena between Baralong and Majola.

CHAIRPERSON: Where's Majola?

MR BERGER: Majola is one below Bapedi and Baralong is one below Majola so if one follows the two of them towards Slovo Park one hits Bakwena.

CHAIRPERSON: Bakwena.

MR BERGER: And she says that the nearest Apollo light is between Baralong and Majola. Is that right? Somewhere here?

CHAIRPERSON: So it is not at the corner of Majola and Bakwena? Okay.

MS M MOLETE: It is not in Bakwena because Bakwena runs from Bapedi.

MR BERGER: Let's just get clarity here?

CHAIRPERSON: Look, well I'm a bit lost here. Let me just go through this process once again. What I have recorded here which was interpreted was the nearest Apollo light is at the corner of Majola and Bakwena Streets?

MS M MOLETE: This street runs from Bapedi. When you walk with Bapedi from the shop and then you turn left, but when you turn on the right hand there is an Apollo which is between Majola and Baralong and there is a tuck shop and that Apollo light is just behind that tuck shop.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, how far is this light from Slovo Park?

MS M MOLETE: The people who live in Slovo Park buy from that tuckshop. You just cross the main road. It is not a distance from the tuck shop. That street that runs from Bapedi to Baralong is known as Bakwena and then on the other side there is no street, you only see the houses on the Slovo Park side.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know where the beer hall is?

MS M MOLETE: Yes there was an old barber which is no longer there, I know that one.

MR STRYDOM: And that was on the corner of Mashweshwe and Bakwena Street, is that correct?

MS M MOLETE: It is on the same street as Bakwena but there is no street from Bapedi towards that bar.

MR STRYDOM: You see I want to inform you and Chairperson, I'm going to refer to Exhibit EE on page 19 of the report about the elimination situation in Boipatong. It is stated in this report that there are seven Apollo lights distributed around the Northern Township and then they are tabled in this report and the fourth - page 19 Chairperson, it's marked on the bottom corner. The fourth Apollo light, there seems no argument about that is situated at corner Bapedi Street and Morkari Avenue, it seems to be opposite house 208 Morkari, I think it should read. Then the other Apollo light which I referred you to is number 7, the reference there is Beer Hall, corner Mashweshwe and Bakwena Streets. Now what I want to put to you, according to this report which was compiled shortly after the Boipatong incident, there is no Apollo light where you indicated to be in Bakwena between Majola and Baralong Streets so if we accept for a moment that this report is correct, I'm putting it to you that you are wrong?

MR BERGER: The witness said that it's not in Bakwena, she's indicated that it's near Slovo Park behind the tuck shop and to get to the tuck shop you just cross the road and she said it's between Baralong and Majola.

MR STRYDOM: No, you don't understand, so it's just more to Slovo Park than to Bakwena Street.

MR BERGER: No, I think it's just slightly in towards Boipatong, just across which what would be Bakwena.

MR LAX: Just to put it in terms of direction, it's marginally north of where this report seems to indicate it is, perhaps a block or a half a block north, that's what she's indicating.

MR STRYDOM: Well, what I'm putting to you is according to the report there is no Apollo light where you indicated it to be, that's what I'm putting to you?

MS M MOLETE: I do not agree with that report because I know there is an Apollo light there.

MR STRYDOM: Tell me, the Apollo light you are referring to now, was it also there on the night of the attack?

MS M MOLETE: Yes it was there and it was late.

CHAIRPERSON: Which is this Apollo light that's in this street here?

MR STRYDOM: I think the one in issue ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: That's she's referring to.

MR STRYDOM: I've put to her that there's an Apollo light on the - very close to the corner of Bakwena and Mashweshwe.

CHAIRPERSON: Right?

MR STRYDOM: And she says no, it's higher up in a Northern direction between Majola and Baralong Streets.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, as I understand the evidence you put it to her that - I think you said the nearest Apollo light is at the corner of Mashweshwe and Bafokeng Street and the answer is yes.

MR STRYDOM: No, no in Bakwena Street and not Bafokeng, it was Bakwena Street.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Bakwena Street, yes and the answer was yes.

MR STRYDOM: Yes that is initially the answer and then I asked her to elaborate and then she changed the position and she said no, the Apollo light, the closest Apollo light is between Majola and Baralong Street.

CHAIRPERSON: I suppose the question really has been phrased somewhat differently because as I understand it, the question was the next nearest I think it was you canvassed with us now, let's clear this up.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, sorry, when the yes was Molete was listening to Mr Strydom when he was positioning the lights, so she was saying yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Well she is not saying that she agrees when it was put to her that the nearest Apollo light is at the corner of Mashweshwe and Makwena.

MR BERGER: No, she's not agreeing to that.

CHAIRPERSON: Well ma'am, would you please tell us what Apollo lights you know and where they are in relation to Slovo Park?

MS M MOLETE: There is an Apollo light at the corner of Morkari and the other one is between Majola Street and Baralong and that's all that I know.

CHAIRPERSON: That's at the - I think you mentioned the corner of Morkari and what streets?

MS M MOLETE: It's between Morkari and Bapedi, that is the intersection of Morkari and Bapedi.

MR STRYDOM: Now I'm not going to take this point further off, I'm just going to put to you that where you say the Apollo light is situated which would be the closest to you is now between Majola and Baralong Street is not the correct position because if my information is correct that Apollo light is lower down in a southern direction towards the corner of Bakwena and Mashweshwe Street?

MS M MOLETE: You said I should explain the nearest Apollo. That one you're talking about is in Mashweshwe and it's not near Slovo Park.

MR STRYDOM: According to you is there another Apollo light at the corner of Mashweshwe and Bakwena Streets close to the old beer hall?

MS M MOLETE: It is in Mashweshwe Street, it is not on Slovo Park side.

MR STRYDOM: At approximately 10 o'clock that night was there still smoke and fog hanging over Boipatong?

MS M MOLETE: No.

MR STRYDOM: You testified that your husband and Mita went to bed already, Florence also got herself ready to go to bed and you still wanted to bath. What source of light did you still have on, if any, in the house?

MS M MOLETE: We were sitting around the fire and we used a paraffin lamp and in the bedrooms we used the candle light.

MR STRYDOM: Now the place where you were when the attacker came into the house, what was the situation about the light in that room?

MS M MOLETE: I was not sitting I was still in the bath then.

MR STRYDOM: Yes but in the place you were in the bath then, what did you have a candle there or a paraffin lamp or any light?

MS M MOLETE: It was candlelight.

MR STRYDOM: When you were attacked were you still in that same room or bathroom with the candlelight?

MS M MOLETE: When they hit at the door I went out of the bath and put on some clothes and went out of that room.

MR STRYDOM: Yes. Did you go to the room which will take you - with the door that will take you outside? The front room?

MS M MOLETE: They were already inside then. After they had taken my husband I tried to protect Mita. His head was facing the wardrobe and these people were busy smashing the wardrobe so I was trying to protect Mita.

MR STRYDOM: What I want to establish is this, the light in the room that you were when you were attacked?

CHAIRPERSON: When you left the bathroom where did you go to?

MS M MOLETE: I was trying to take Mita to another room then I met these people who were attacking.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was this?

MS M MOLETE: It was just next to the door leading to the kitchen.

CHAIRPERSON: So from the bathroom did you go to the kitchen?

MS M MOLETE: It is inside the shack, there are only two and a half rooms. I was from a bedroom and then from the bedroom there is a door leading to the kitchen and there is another door that is leading to the small room so I was preparing myself to go to the small room to go and take the child.

CHAIRPERSON: This house, how many rooms does it have?

MS M MOLETE: There's one bedroom, a kitchen and a small room that was used like a storeroom.

CHAIRPERSON: Right and you were taking a bath in the bedroom?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: The bedroom door, does that open into the kitchen?

MS M MOLETE: Yes from the bedroom the door is leading to the kitchen.

CHAIRPERSON: Right and then to go to the small room which is used as a storeroom?

MS M MOLETE: Each door is also leading to the kitchen.

CHAIRPERSON: So you cannot access this small room from the bedroom?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well. When you heard the sound of the attack you left the bedroom?

MS M MOLETE: I was just peeping through a small hole and then I called Florence to come and see. I showed her that people were attacking on the neighbourhood and at that time they were already smashing the shack.

CHAIRPERSON: And where were you at the time?

MS M MOLETE: I was still in the bedroom, that is when I was trying to protect Mita.

CHAIRPERSON: And was Mita in the bedroom already?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you Chairperson.

So when you were attacked were you attacked in the bedroom then?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Now at the stage when you were attacked what was the situation with the light in the bedroom?

MS M MOLETE: When they entered and started attacking there was also more light, they had already smashed the window. When they took out my husband all the candles fell down but there was still more light in the house, we could see.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not with you ma'am. Will you just, you know, speak slowly and then just take it step by step, okay? Now what counsel wants to find out is when they entered the bedroom, this is where you were, was the candle still on?

MS M MOLETE: Yes it was still on but it fell down.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it still burning?

MS M MOLETE: No it fell down and went off.

CHAIRPERSON: It went out as they entered the bedroom?

MS M MOLETE: When it fell down and then my husband tried to wake up. I was also trying to protect the child and when it fell down it went off.

CHAIRPERSON: And were they dragging your husband out of the room?

MS M MOLETE: They hurt him first and dragged him out of the bedroom. They had already smashed the shack from the eastern side of the shack and dragged him out of the bedroom. They had already smashed the shack from the east, from the eastern side of the shack.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR STRYDOM: So to conclude from all this at the time you were attacked there was no light except for what you say moonlight?

MS M MOLETE: There was still light in the kitchen, so there was light from the kitchen through the door leading to the kitchen and also the moonlight and the Apollo light from outside so we could see because they had already smashed the door and the window so it was easy for us to see inside.

MR STRYDOM: What source of light was in the kitchen?

MS M MOLETE: The paraffin lamp was still on in the kitchen.

MR STRYDOM: That paraffin lamp, did it still stay on through the attack?

MS M MOLETE: Yes it was still on.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, the question was did that paraffin lamp still stay on after the attack?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take the adjournment ...(indistinct)

MR STRYDOM: Thank you Chairperson.

How many windows did this shack have in the bedroom?

MS M MOLETE: There was only one window in the bedroom.

MR STRYDOM: That window, I just want to know the direction, if you looked out of the window would you have looked down to Mashweshwe Street or towards Boipatong or towards the factories. If you looked out of that window?

MS M MOLETE: It was facing in the direction of the Apollo that is between Majola and Barula Street.

MR STRYDOM: The attackers that first came in and hacked your husband, can you give any description of those people?

MS M MOLETE: No unfortunately I won't be able to do so.

MR STRYDOM: Why not?

MS M MOLETE: We were trying to hide, I was trying to protect my child because I saw these people attacking my husband so when they smashed at the window it was on the side where my child was and they smashed at that wardrobe so I was trying to protect my child.

CHAIRPERSON: In relation to the window that was smashed where was your child?

MS M MOLETE: It was just from this machine what I've just pointed to where Advocate Sigodi is sitting, that's where the child was in relation to the window.

MR STRYDOM: Now the windows, did they have curtains or the window, sorry, the window in the bedroom, you referred to one window, did it have a curtain?

MS M MOLETE: Yes it had curtains.

MR STRYDOM: Were they drawn?

MS M MOLETE: The curtain was closed.

MR STRYDOM: So that must have prevented the light from coming in to some extent, is that correct?

MS M MOLETE: No.

MR STRYDOM: Why not?

MS M MOLETE: Because it was only lace it could not prevent the light from coming in.

MR STRYDOM: When these window panes were broken, what happened to the curtains including the lace curtains, sorry.

MS M MOLETE: They removed that curtain and threw in the stones while they were shouting and telling us to remove our weapons.

MR STRYDOM: Now after the candle in the bedroom fell over and died down, it must have been pretty dark in that room, isn't it so?

MS M MOLETE: No it is not so, in the shack whenever you touch something everything falls down, so now because they threw in stones, so almost everything fell down and then they entered from where they smashed the shack. A shack is not like a well built house so it was easy for the curtain to fall as well.

MR STRYDOM: How many people would you say entered that shack and started hacking your husband and injuring Florence and then dragging your husband out?

MS M MOLETE: Florence was in the kitchen. In the bedroom where I was there were three people who came to attack my husband and then from there I was busy trying to protect the child if I could not see other people. I only saw those three people.

MR STRYDOM: And the person that then started to attack you, was he one of the three or was it a fourth person?

MS M MOLETE: He was the fourth.

MR STRYDOM: Did you see how he entered the house or the shack?

MS M MOLETE: I've already stated that I was trying to remove the child to another room so he entered from the kitchen.

MR STRYDOM: Now at what stage did you see that he's got a white area, uncovered area close to his eyes?

MS M MOLETE: I have already stated that there moonlight and Apollo light. The door had already fallen and we could see and also the paraffin lamp was still on in the kitchen so we could see clearly.

MR STRYDOM: But when did you see it, when he started to attack you or before he attacked you or when?

MS M MOLETE: The time when he was trying to hack me and when I was holding his hand and I was holding the child on the other side and then he stabbed me with that sharp object and also on the eye so when I tried to turn around, that's when he hacked the baby.

MR STRYDOM: You made mention of a door that fell down, was that the kitchen door between the kitchen or bedroom or which door?

MS M MOLETE: Both doors fell. The first one that fell is the kitchen door that is leading to the outside and the door between the kitchen and the bedroom and in this small room there was no ...(indistinct) it was only lace and there is no one that entered into that small room.

MR STRYDOM: Could you see the attacker's hands? Well your attacker?

MS M MOLETE: He had hand gloves, I only saw his face. He only had that balaclava but I could see his nose and the eyes and he was just near me. He was fighting me and I could see him clearly while I was holding the baby.

MR STRYDOM: Do you remember the colour of his eyes?

MS M MOLETE: He had blue eyes.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know what he was wearing?

MS M MOLETE: He put on a Balaclava but I could see his nose and the eyes and it was clear that he was white. In his hand he had hand gloves.

MR STRYDOM: Now apart from that can you give a description maybe just the colour of the rest of his clothing?

MS M MOLETE: No I cannot.

MR STRYDOM: I must put it to you that under the circumstances of an attack like this you must have been - well I take it that you must have been very scared. Do you say that you still managed to look him in the eye to see the colour of his eyes?

MS M MOLETE: Yes that's true, he was just next to me, I was trying to protect the child, I was looking at him, I was not fighting, he was fighting, I was just holding the baby. I was also surprised.

MR STRYDOM: Did you speak to him at all?

MS M MOLETE: No I did not.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know what the colour of the Balaclava was?

MS M MOLETE: No I don't remember.

MR STRYDOM: You see the reason why I'm asking these questions ...(intervention)

LEGAL REPRESENTATIVE: I must just place on record Chairman that the question was do you know what the colour of the Balaclava was, the answer that was interpreted is "don't remember" and I don't think that was what the answer was from her, the answer was "no".

MS M MOLETE: I said no, I don't know.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I see it is half past, would this be a convenient time?

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a break now and come back at 12 o'clock.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Molete, may I remind you that you're still under oath?

MIRIAM MOLETE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: We will take the lunch adjournment at quarter past 1. Yes Mr Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: (continues) Now after the man which you discovered was a White man attacked you, did he leave the shack again?

MS M MOLETE: Yes he left the shack.

MR STRYDOM: Could you see in which direction he went?

MS M MOLETE: No.

MR STRYDOM: Apart from that White person, did you see any White persons thereafter?

MS M MOLETE: The other two were standing at the door.

MR STRYDOM: Is that the door giving entrance into the house?

MS M MOLETE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: When was the first time for you to see them?

MS M MOLETE: When I threw myself on the ground. When I lifted up my head I saw them at the door.

MR STRYDOM: How did you see that they were White?

MS M MOLETE: They did not put on Balaclavas. They wore camouflage clothes and caps.

MR STRYDOM: Did they have any weapons with them?

MS M MOLETE: They had guns with them.

MR STRYDOM: When you were on the ground or on the floor and you saw these people, what were they doing?

MS M MOLETE: They were just standing there looking at the house, the inside.

MR STRYDOM: Did they say anything?

MS M MOLETE: No.

MR STRYDOM: At what stage did they move on or leave the house?

MS M MOLETE: After they shouted uSotho they left.

CHAIRPERSON: After who shouted USotho?

MS M MOLETE: It was from outside, there were many people who shouted USotho outside.

MR STRYDOM: Apart from stating that they were White and they wore this camouflage clothing and a cap, can you give any further description of these two people?

MS M MOLETE: No.

MR STRYDOM: In which room were you lying on the floor when you saw them?

MS M MOLETE: I was at the door leading to the kitchen from the bedroom that is straight from the door that is leading outside.

MR LAX: Sorry, could you please repeat that please, there was a bit of interference from the back, I couldn't hear you properly?

MS M MOLETE: I was next to the door leading to the kitchen from the bedroom. They were standing at the door leading to the shack from the outside.

MR STRYDOM: When you saw them or at the stage you saw them had the other, the person that attacked you left already?

MS M MOLETE: He left when he threw myself on the ground, that is when he heard people shouting USotho from outside and they all left.

MR STRYDOM: When they left did you remain on the ground for some time?

MS M MOLETE: No I stood up.

MR STRYDOM: After you stood up did you see these people again which were standing in the door?

MS M MOLETE: After they heard people shouting USotho, they left.

CHAIRPERSON: What you're being asked is, you threw yourself onto the ground?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: When you stood up again were these people still there?

MS M MOLETE: No they had already left.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. These are now the two men who were at the door and one who had attacked you?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: How many attackers or how many people did you see in the vicinity of your shack? We know now of the people that came in initially, the three people, we know of the person that attacked you and the other two that stood in the door, apart from those did you see other attackers?

MS M MOLETE: There were many people outside.

MR STRYDOM: The other people outside can you give any description of what they were wearing?

MS M MOLETE: No.

MR STRYDOM: Didn't you see headbands?

MS M MOLETE: I saw them the first time when I was peeping through the window while they were still smashing the windows next door, that's when I saw them. They had red headbands and others had white headbands.

MR STRYDOM: But when you came outside after the attack, did you still see many people in that vicinity of the shacks and of your shack?

MS M MOLETE: They were not far away from our shack, they were being followed by a Hippo in the direction of the firms.

MR STRYDOM: So when you got out of the shack, the people had already left and there was a Hippo in between you and them, is that what you're saying?

MS M MOLETE: I was behind the shack, they were at a distance from the shack.

MR STRYDOM: If you look at Exhibit J and bearing in mind where you indicated where your shack was can you give an indication where you saw this Koyoco and you just mentioned, you said Hippo?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Can you just point out more or less that we can establish the position?

MS M MOLETE: I don't understand this because I cannot see clearly. They were moving along Bakwena Street, I was standing behind the shack.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, now if you accept that at the top of this map you'll find the factories, you see the top street running on this map is Amatola so beyond Amatola you'll find the factories and you remember where you pointed out the position of your shack, now can you in relation to your shack and the factories if Bakwena Street is shown to you, point out where in Bakwena Street did you see the Koyoco or the Hippo?

MS M MOLETE: We were moving in the direction of the firm in Bakwena Street but at the moment there are taps and a tree there, it's no longer like it was before, that's where I saw that Hippo because other people had left that place so I can no longer remember how the place is now.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know where the church is at the end of Batswana Street?

MS M MOLETE: Are you referring to AME Church? Yes I know it.

MR STRYDOM: I'm referring to the church that's indicated there at the end of Batswana Street. Can you just point that out?

MR BERGER: I think it is the AME Church you're referring to.

MR STRYDOM: Now that Hippo was it close to that church or where?

MS M MOLETE: No that place is far from our shack so we are unable to see when you are at my shack.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the AME Church far from the shack in which you were?

MS M MOLETE: It is far. When I look at this map there was a caravan there before.

MR STRYDOM: But looking now at the map, can you give an indication where you saw the Koyoco in relation to your position?

MS M MOLETE: I was at number 17 behind the shack and that Koyoco was next to the place where there was a caravan. It was moving slow and there were people behind it moving in the direction of the firms.

MR STRYDOM: Yes I understand that but do you see Bapedi Street and do you see Batswana Street? In between these streets, along street block is formed. Now I want to know if you can indicate where you saw the Hippo?

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't she say she saw the Hippo near the caravan?

MR STRYDOM: She said that but I'm not sure where the caravan is Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it not indicated on the map?

MR STRYDOM: No Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I think it's opposite house 133 I think it is. Is it Bakwena Street?

MR STRYDOM: I'll find it here.

MR BERGER: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: What I want to put to you, in that area you won't find any Apollo lights, is that correct?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Now from your position behind your shack to that position where you say the Hippo was, how was it able for you to see that vehicle?

MS M MOLETE: I said this Apollo light in Slovo Park and there was also moonlight so we were able to see everything.

MR STRYDOM: The lights of this vehicle was it on or off?

MS M MOLETE: Yes they were in front of this vehicle and it was moving slowly and the Apollo lights were also on. You could see that there were people in front of this Hippo although you could not see who they were.

MR STRYDOM: Apart from the front lights could you see any other lights on this vehicle?

MS M MOLETE: No.

MR STRYDOM: So you did not see the tail lights which normally will be red, of this vehicle?

MS M MOLETE: I could not see them.

MR STRYDOM: Can you give any explanation why you did not see the tail lights of this vehicle?

MS M MOLETE: I said I only saw the front lights. When you are at Slovo at night you could see the people in front of this vehicle. You could see that people are moving in front of it because it's headlights were on.

MR STRYDOM: I want to put to you that the applicants I appear for said they were in Boipatong that night, well the majority of them were in Boipatong that night and whilst they were in Boipatong and some of them in Slovo Park, they never saw any police or military vehicle close to them but you still maintain that you saw people and this vehicle?

MS M MOLETE: Yes, I still maintain.

MR STRYDOM: And they have also testified already that when they attacked houses there was no Whites accompanying them?

MS M MOLETE: They were there.

MR STRYDOM: What I want to put to you is that either you are making a mistake about these people you thought to be Whites or you're not telling the truth?

MS M MOLETE: Mr Strydom, may I ask you a question? If I'm allowed to ask you a question, I don't know whether I'm allowed?

CHAIRPERSON: No, you're not allowed ma'am.

MR STRYDOM: After the attack ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You can just answer the question, what he's putting to you is that you are either making a mistake when you say that you saw this motor vehicle and Whites or you are not telling the truth. So what's your comment on that?

MS M MOLETE: I am telling the truth.

MR STRYDOM: How soon after the attack did you make a statement in regard to what you saw that night to the police or to any other institution?

MS M MOLETE: I only remember one statement when we were first by the police and they took us to the Civic Centre at the court. That is the only statement that I remember. I was sick at that time, I did not want to make that statement but they told us they just want to help us.

MR STRYDOM: I just want to get clarity. Now was that the statement taken at the Civic Centre you didn't want to make but you eventually made?

MS M MOLETE: I only remember that statement that I made at the Civic Centre.

MR STRYDOM: Is that the Boipatong Civic Centre?

MS M MOLETE: There is no Civic Centre in Boipatong, it's here in town.

MR STRYDOM: In Vanderbijlpark?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: And the person who took the statement, was that a policeman or a representative of some other institution?

MS M MOLETE: They were policemen, they were White and Black policemen.

MR STRYDOM: Why didn't you want to make a statement?

MS M MOLETE: I was angry at that time and I was also sick after the attack, that is why I didn't want to make the statement.

MR STRYDOM: I know it's very difficult to say but can you remember how long after the incident did you make this statement, was it still the same year or year thereafter?

MS M MOLETE: It could be four to five months if I'm not mistaken.

CHAIRPERSON: Four to five months after the attack?

MS M MOLETE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you tell the person who took down the statement about the White man that injured and attacked you?

MS M MOLETE: I told him everything.

MR STRYDOM: Including the Hippo you saw?

MS M MOLETE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the second question?

MR STRYDOM: Including the Hippo she saw.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and the answer was?

MR STRYDOM: Yes. Chairperson, I've got the exhibits ready.

CHAIRPERSON: Now would there be any objection if at some point somebody makes available to us speaking for myself, the photographs of these various motor vehicles, the suitcase, the microwave, the Koyoco?

CHAIRPERSON: Chairperson, we would have no objection, in fact we've been speaking amongst ourselves and we thought that Mr da Silva might be the correct person to bring along a chart of these different vehicles or perhaps the police, I don't know. But we would welcome that, definitely.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairman, I'll try and make enquiries and I'll try and make a chart or documents available.

CHAIRPERSON: This one has a sense of - you don't have to worry about Nyala, I know Nyala.

MR DA SILVA: I'll try and do them Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Will there be any objection on this side?

MR STRYDOM: Not from our side Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Yes, okay very well. Alright then.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson I just handed out a document, unfortunately it's not paginated but it's got an index and I think we'll endeavour to paginate it during the course of the day but I'll try to point to places without paginating at this stage. This document contains statements of witnesses my learned friend intends calling.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well shall we mark this bundle of statements by various witnesses who might be called by and on behalf of the victims GG? Yes very well?

MR STRYDOM: Thank you Chairperson. The first statement I'm going to refer to is the statement of this witness which is the middle of this bundle, Miriam Molete. There are three statements made by this witness in this bundle. On the right hand corner of this first statement, you'll find the numbering 150 to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Does the first one follow the one by Petrus Manyika?

MR STRYDOM: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, you'll see that some of these statements have got lines through them, that is how we found them in the docket, I think these witnesses weren't called, it's just sort of a - I think it's marked to indicate that they were not going to be called, that's why there's a line through some of these statements on the first page.

MR LAX: Mr Strydom, is this a three page statement, the first one you're referring to?

MR STRYDOM: Yes Mr Lax.

MR LAX: Because my second page is cut off unfortunately.

MR STRYDOM: Yes unfortunately all of us, we will have to find the original again, I only realised this this morning that we've got a problem with that one but we'll try to get the original again out from the docket and then replace it in due course.

MR LAX: Can I just ask something, is the next one something like 1607 or something to that effect? 1609, it's cut off at the top.

MR STRYDOM: Ja, that's the first one I have Miriam Molete in the bundle.

MR LAX: I've got two so one comes after?

MR STRYDOM: Ja. I want to...(intervention)

MR BERGER: If I could just - Ms Molete has indicated some problems with some of the statement so if you could just confirm which ones are and which ones are not?

MR STRYDOM: Let's start with the - I've got three statements here, the first one I want to refer you to is the statement that's only on one page which has got I think 1609 at the top.

It's a one pager.

MR BERGER: It doesn't appear 1609 at the top I think it's been just cut off.

MR STRYDOM: Ja but it's a on page hand-written statement.

MR BERGER: Perhaps if you could go by date of statement at the bottom?

MR STRYDOM: Ja, that statement is dated the 20th April 1993. Do you see a signature on that page? Is that your signature? MS M MOLETE: Yes it's mine.

MR STRYDOM: Now if you turn to the next page that's a further statement that's got 1502 on the top and it has three pages, it's a statement taken according to this statement on the 25th March 1993. You see although but vaguely, but you see the your signature on that page as well, the third page?

MS M MOLETE: It is not clear.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it's the one that's below paragraph 6?

MR STRYDOM: That is so Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Molete, can you see that, it's very faint but can you make out that signature?

MS M MOLETE: I cannot see the first letter but the surname is mine.

CHAIRPERSON: But can you tell whether that is your signature or not? Mr Berger, will you make sure that she's looking at the same? We're looking at paragraph 6, there's a very faint signature below that.

MR BERGER: Yes, she's looking at that very one.

CHAIRPERSON: Now can you tell us what appears there is your signature or not?

MS M MOLETE: Yes I can see the surname clearly but the name is not clear, yes it's mine, where there is written Molete is my surname.

CHAIRPERSON: But is it your signature? If you can't say let us know.

MS M MOLETE: It is because it's not clear but on the first page yes it's mine.

MR BERGER: The witness is talking about the first statement.

MS M MOLETE: Yes indeed.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, we have the original available, it's just my attorney, I see he's not in the hearing now, we'll show her in due course the original.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay very well.

MR STRYDOM: Then I want you to have a look at a further statement which is a typed statement dated the 9th November 1993. On the second page of that statement just underneath paragraph 10 there's also a signature, would that also be your signature?

MS M MOLETE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Wait a minute. You see after the statement which is dated the 25th March 1993, alright, what follows here is yet another statement dated the 20th April 1993?

MR STRYDOM: Yes Chairperson, that's unfortunately the same statement has been included twice so that's the first statement and the third one would be the same.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps the first statement should not have been included as I see it they were intended to follow the date order.

MR STRYDOM: Ja so I will ask the first statement be deleted from the bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright and then this statement is then followed by the typed one?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright. Okay.

MR LAX: Sorry what was your answer? Did you ask her about her signature on the top one?

MR STRYDOM: Yes and I think she confirmed that, let's make sure?

MR LAX: Just to get the answer clearly?

MR STRYDOM: Do you confirm your signature on the last typed statement?

MS M MOLETE: Yes that's mine.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Now before I cross-examine you in more detail, I just want to put it to you that in neither of these three statements do you make mention of the two people which you said were Whites with the camouflage clothing. Can you give any explanation for that?

MS M MOLETE: I don't know whether they have written that here but I told them everything that happened even though I was sick but I could remember everything. Even now I still remember everything but I did not read the statement.

MR STRYDOM: And I also want to put to you that the Hippo you saw and the people walking with the Hippo does not appear in any one of these statements?

MS M MOLETE: It is so, I don't know what is written here because I did not read the statements.

MR STRYDOM: Why did you sign the statements?

MS M MOLETE: I see another statement which indicated that it was made in Vereeniging, I have never been to Vereeniging, that is the one that is typed. I have never made a statement in Vereeniging.

MR STRYDOM: Why do you say that the typed statement was taken in Vereeniging?

MR BERGER: Ms Molete is pointing to the address of the Commissioner of Oaths.

MR STRYDOM: Oh, just the address. Have you ever made a statement in Pretoria?

MS M MOLETE: Those are the same statements that we made in Vanderbijlpark that were sent to Pretoria.

MR STRYDOM: Were you taken to Pretoria at any stage in connection with this matter?

MS M MOLETE: I went there twice except when we were called by Mr Steenkamp. I went there twice and then thereafter we were called by Mr Steenkamp.

MR STRYDOM: Now you referred to Mr Steenkamp. Now he was the investigating officer of the criminal trial. Did he take a statement of you in Pretoria?

MS M MOLETE: I made a mistake, we made a statement in Vanderbijlpark to Mr Steenkamp so the other times we went to Pretoria, we went there twice, when we were called by you, Mr Strydom.

MR STRYDOM: You went there twice?

MS M MOLETE: So when I included that day I went there three times.

MR STRYDOM: You never testified at the criminal hearing is that correct?

MS M MOLETE: No. We were just asked questions.

MR STRYDOM: Did you at any stage refuse to testify at the criminal hearing?

MS M MOLETE: No, I never refused.

MR STRYDOM: According to the third statement, the typed statement, it was taken on the 9th November 1993 at Pretoria. Do you deny that?

MR LAX: With the greatest of respect, Mr Strydom, it was signed on that day before this person at Pretoria. It wasn't taken there, that's not clear from the statement anyway.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, yes, as you please.

It was signed, yes it was signed. Do you deny signing that statement in Pretoria?

MS M MOLETE: I do not deny that I signed the statement but I say that the statement we made to Mr Steenkamp we were in Vanderbijlpark so when we were taken to Pretoria we were just asked questions.

MR STRYDOM: I want to refer you to the statement that according to the statement, that's the second statement, well the three page statement which was taken on the 25th March 1993 at Vanderbijlpark. The three page statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Why don't we, you know to avoid any confusion, why don't we refer to the statement if it's the 25th March to be the first statement and then the statement dated 20th April 1993 the second statement and the typed written statement the third statement? Did you get that Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Yes I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.

MR STRYDOM: Now in this statement you said as follows ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Which statement?

MR STRYDOM: The first statement.

CHAIRPERSON: The first statement, 25th March?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct, on the first page thereof.

CHAIRPERSON: Right.

MR STRYDOM: I'm going to read from more or less the middle of the page.

"At that time I saw the window being broken and the door was broken. These people entered into the house and two of them assaulted my sister Florence with sticks. I saw another people pulling my husband out of the house. I then tried to remove my daughter from the room. Then before I could remove the child a member of that group started to chop the child with a panga."

Now the question I want to ask you, the person that attacked you and the child, was he one of the people that came into the house initially?

MS M MOLETE: I said he was a White man, he entered alone from the kitchen door.

MR STRYDOM: So he was not one of the people who came in initially with the three people you testified about now?

MS M MOLETE: He was not one of them because those other people did not use the door to enter, they entered from the opening where they have smashed the shack.

MR STRYDOM: Now I also asked you today if you can give any description as to the clothing of the person that attacked you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Strydom, the part that you began reading, just read that sentence again?

MR STRYDOM: "At that time I saw the window being broken and the door was broken. These people entered into the house and two of them" ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well is that "these" I can't see, it looks to me like a t-h?

MR STRYDOM: It is three, ja. It looks like three to me as well.

"Three people entered into the house and two of them assaulted my sister, Florence, with sticks."

CHAIRPERSON: Right. Okay?

MR STRYDOM: And then later on it said

"Then before I could move the child a member of that group started to chop the child with a panga."

MR LAX: Just to put it in context, the next sentence is quite crucial it would seem because it says

"I saw other people pulling my husband out of the house"

So it seems there were quite a lot of people in the house according to what this statement says but obviously you will clear that up?

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, what does the witness say in regard to the first sentence that you've read? Just reconfirm that, the first sentence?

MR STRYDOM: May I just put that question again? I've read to you that sentence. Do you confirm the correctness of that sentence? Just for clarity I'll just repeat it quickly.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, let me just explain to her.

Ms Molete, what counsel is going to do now, he's going to read to you what appears in a statement dated 25th March 1993, do you understand that?

MS M MOLETE: Yes I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Remember, this is the statement where in regard to which you've told us that you cannot say whether that is your signature because it is not clear, do you understand that?

MS M MOLETE: Yes I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, now as he reads the sentence by sentence of the statement, would you tell us whether you confirm that or deny the statement that's been read to you? Do you understand that?

MS M MOLETE: Yes I do.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you.

The first sentence I want to put to you:

"At that time I saw the window being broken and the door was broken. Three people entered into the house and two of them assaulted my sister, Florence, with sticks."

Is that correct?

MS M MOLETE: Well I did not see happening to Florence, I may not agree with that.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, right, the only portion of that statement that you confirm is that you saw three people entering the house?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know with what weapon your sister Florence was assaulted?

MS M MOLETE: No.

MR STRYDOM: And then the statement continues to read as follows

"I saw other people pulling my husband out of the house"

Is that correct?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: And then it continues

"I then tried to remove my daughter from the room. Then before I could remove the child the member of that group started to chop the child with a panga."

Is that correct?

MS M MOLETE: No, that is not correct there.

MR STRYDOM: Which portion is incorrect or is everything incorrect?

MS M MOLETE: Everything that you have just read is incorrect.

CHAIRPERSON: What he has read to you is

"I then tried to remove my daughter from the room and before I could remove the child a member of that group started to chop the child with a panga."

You say that whole statement is incorrect?

MS M MOLETE: It is not correct because I did not say it the way it is written there.

MR STRYDOM: When you made this statement an interpreter was used, is that correct?

MS M MOLETE: I made this statement to a Black person, he was talking to Mr Steenkamp. That person spoke Sepedi.

MR STRYDOM: Did you understand him?

MS M MOLETE: Somewhere I was struggling, I even requested him to used seTswana, maybe I would understand him.

MR STRYDOM: Do you remember if his name was Lucky Samuel Kekana?

MS M MOLETE: Yes, I do remember.

MR STRYDOM: But at the end of your statement you were happy enough with the statement to sign the statement is that correct?

MS M MOLETE: Can you please repeat the question Sir?

MR STRYDOM: You've signed the statement and - let me put it the other way around, were you prepared to sign a statement you're not happy with?

MS M MOLETE: I have already explain the conditions at that time when we were making these statements.

MR STRYDOM: The question is still, would you sign a statement you're not happy with?

MS M MOLETE: If they had read the statement to me I would have told them that I'm not satisfied about this statement because after they have asked me questions they told me just to sign, that is why I signed the statement.

MR STRYDOM: I'm going to continue reading the statement and want your comments?

"I then tried to intervene. He chopped my left thumb"

and it goes on:

"he stabbed me with a self made"

I think it should read:

"sharp instrument"

which is mentioned here to be a "Injumnetjo" is that correct?

MS M MOLETE: I never tried to intervene, I was just holding the baby, this was a small baby.

MR STRYDOM: But this portion of the statement is this correct?

MS M MOLETE: It's not correct where you say I tried to intervene.

MR STRYDOM: But didn't you try to protect the child?

MS M MOLETE: I tried to use my hand to protect my child, I was not fighting back. This person was not fighting me, he was just hacking randomly.

MR STRYDOM: It goes on

"When I looked deeply at him I could see that" ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: There's a portion here which says "he chopped my left thumb".

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: I then I've read you that portion

"When I looked deeply at him I could see that his eyes are blue and his nose was pink. I could not see his hands because he was wearing a polo neck and black hand gloves."

Is that portion correct?

MS M MOLETE: It is correct.

MR STRYDOM: I'll ask you today if you can give any description of your attackers clothing and you said no you can't. In your statement you said that he was wearing a polo neck. Why did you state it like that?

MS M MOLETE: You asked me what he had in his hands and he said he had hand gloves and you asked me about the gloves. Then I said he wore a Balaclava and that's all. You didn't ask me about the colour.

MR STRYDOM: No I asked you about any description of any other part of his clothing and you said no you can't give me any further description but in your statement you made mention of a polo neck. Can you give any explanation?

MS M MOLETE: Can you please repeat that question again?

MR STRYDOM: What's been put to you is that when you're been asked what clothing the person who attacked you was wearing your answer was you can't say.

MR LAX: Chair, just if I may? The question was can you remember what the colour of the rest of his clothing was and your answer to that was no, I cannot, but that's how the question was framed, it's wasn't framed on what other clothes he was wearing.

CHAIRPERSON: A description of other clothes.

MR LAX: It was the colour of the other clothes that was asked, or description. Fair enough.

CHAIRPERSON: You were asked whether could you give a description of any other clothing that he was wearing and the answer was no, you are unable to do so. Do you understand that?

MS M MOLETE: Yes I do.

CHAIRPERSON: In your statement to the police you told them that this person was wearing a polo neck and black hand gloves. I think all that counsel wants to find out from you is when he asked you about what is the description of the other clothing that this person was wearing, why didn't you tell him that this person wore a polo neck?

MS M MOLETE: I heard him asking me about the gloves and the Balaclava so when he referred to other clothes and then I said I cannot say.

MR STRYDOM: But the question is, do you remember now that he wore a polo neck or not?

MS M MOLETE: I don't remember, it's a long time ago and I already said that when I made the statement I was sick. It's now seven years since this took place.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the position that as you're sitting there you cannot remember whether this man was wearing a polo neck?

MS M MOLETE: It can be true because I could only see his nose and the eyes.

CHAIRPERSON: But do you remember now that this man was wearing a polo neck?

MS M MOLETE: Yes I remember now.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know what the colour of the polo neck was?

MS M MOLETE: All his clothes were dark.

MR STRYDOM: At a certain stage, someone, one of the attackers said "take out your firearms" or words to that effect. When was that, before the attack on you or after the attack on you?

MS M MOLETE: That is before the attack.

MR STRYDOM: If you can just bear with me for a moment, I'm just getting the original here to make it easier? Unfortunately, the original is not forthcoming.

I want to continue. The statement:

"I realised that he is a White person although he had a Balaclava"

is that correct?

MS M MOLETE: I don't understand now?

MR STRYDOM: I'm reading your statement, I just want to confirm if it's correct or not. I assume the first word is "I"

"I realised that he is a White person"

MR BERGER: Perhaps if you could just put it in read before, put it in context again.

MR STRYDOM: Ja, well I've read that portion wearing a polo neck and black hand gloves.

"I realised that he is a White person even though he had a Balaclava."

Is that portion correct?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: During this whole pandemonium I saw other members of the group at the window saying "Kepani isimbamo zeno" - take out your firearm. Is that correct?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: According to this statement, if one looks at the sequence this was said after the attack on yourself, is the sequence correct?

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not sure whether that apparent because one gets the impression as I read the sentence, it would appear that - well I can't see what the word is there but it would appear that during this whole pandemonium, "I saw other members of the group at the window."

MR STRYDOM: Yes I think I'm going to leave that because maybe that's a bit too much splitting hairs. I going to leave that, I withdraw that question.

CHAIRPERSON: But also here, is there a paragraph 3 here? I can't see the paragraph 3?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I've got a copy now that's not cut off. I'll make copies during the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Is there a paragraph 3?

MR STRYDOM: No, it's not paragraph 3, just goes from paragraph 2 unless it's at the bottom here cut off here but there's no indication of paragraph 3, it just carries on.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.

MR STRYDOM: Paragraph 4 starts ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: According to my watch it's approximately 2 minutes to now, I'm sure whether my watch is ...(intervention)

MR STRYDOM: Ja, it's 14.41 so it's basically quarter past. Will this be convenient because I'm getting onto the next point now, the next paragraph.

CHAIRPERSON: And you're going to be fairly long on the last part?

MR STRYDOM: Well I'm carrying on with the statement so the whole statement will take some time but not too long hopefully.

CHAIRPERSON: I mean the aspect that you want?

MR STRYDOM: No, I'm going to leave the previous aspect, I'm going on to the new one now.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. We will take the lunch adjournment now, we'll come back at 2 o'clock.

MR LOWIES: Mr Chairman, before we do so could I request indication from you as to until what time we're going to sit, I want to arrange a consultation later this evening. If you could just give us an indication regarding that please?

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, okay. If we come back at 2 o'clock, we should be able to take a break round about 3 o'clock with about 15 minutes break and then perhaps go on until about you know, 5? Yes.

MR LOWIES: We're in your hands.

CHAIRPERSON: I think there's a general consensus that we can go toward 5.

MR STRYDOM: If we have to Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a break at about 3 o'clock for about 15 to 20 minutes.

MR LOWIES: Thank you Chairman, I'm indebted to you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes alright.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ms Molete, may I remind you that you're still under oath?

MIRIAM MOLETE: (s.u.o.) Yes, thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM: (continues) Thank you Chairperson.

I'm going to continue reading certain portions of your statement and want your comment please?

"I then grabbed my child and I told them that I would rather die than my child. I fell onto the ground. They then left the shack saying "USotho, USotho."

MS M MOLETE: Yes that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Then thereafter you say

"After their departure we ran towards the dumping site for safety."

Is that how it happened?

MS M MOLETE: I don't understand that one, can you repeat the question again?

MR STRYDOM: You said that you fell to the ground, then the people left, they said "USotho, USotho" and then you went to the dumping site, is that sequentially correct?

MS M MOLETE: It is not all correct, there are portions that are not correct.

MR STRYDOM: What portion is not correct?

MS M MOLETE: After they had left they shouted their slogan. I tried to apply first aid to my child, then I went outside to look for my husband so that part does not appear on what you have read. Then after this we went to the dumping place.

MR STRYDOM: Is that the only portion that is left out in the sequence of events that night?

MS M MOLETE: Yes that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: What about the two people, the two White people in camouflage clothing that you saw? When was that then?

MS M MOLETE: When I threw myself on the ground I pretended to be dead. When they shouted "USotho" all the people left even this one who was inside the shack left.

MR STRYDOM: What I want to point out to you is that you don't make mention in this statement like in your evidence here before the Committee about these two people in camouflage clothing. Can you give an explanation?

MS M MOLETE: I said that I mentioned that but I don't know why it is not written there.

MR STRYDOM: And even if I asked you now to tell us what happened at the stage when you fell to the ground if there's anything left out and you again did not mention these people in camouflage clothing? Why do you keep on forgetting them?

MS M MOLETE: We had not yet arrived at that question.

MR STRYDOM: But you testified today if I remember correctly in your question in chief, when you fell to the ground you saw these people with the camouflage clothing. So why didn't you mention them when I asked you what happened in sequence at the stage when you fell to the ground?

MS M MOLETE: I heard you asking me whether when after I fell down and left for the dumping place, you asked me to comment on that and I said there is something that is left.

MR STRYDOM: You saw these people with the camouflage clothing before you went to the dumping ground, is that correct?

MS M MOLETE: I said when I threw myself on the ground with the baby I saw them standing at the door so when this other man left the other people outside shouted "USotho" and everybody including these two guys left.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see these two White men before you fell to the ground or after that?

MS M MOLETE: I threw myself on the ground and then when I lifted my head and then I saw these two men standing outside but I could see them, I was inside then.

MR STRYDOM: This dumping site, you must indicate a direction, is the dumping site towards - further east from Slovo Park, that's away from Boipatong township, you can have a look at Exhibit J?

MS M MOLETE: The place is just behind Slovo Park.

MR STRYDOM: Yes but if you say behind is it further away from - let me put it this way, is it Boipatong side or the other side towards the east?

MS M MOLETE: It is behind the Slovo Park shacks.

MR STRYDOM: Is it possible to indicate on Exhibit J where you will find that dump?

MS M MOLETE: I cannot.

MR STRYDOM: Is it off the map towards the right as you will look at it?

MS M MOLETE: I'm unable to see.

MR STRYDOM: Just start as a starting point with your house number 17 or the house you slept in that night, 17. Can you see it?

MS M MOLETE: Yes I do.

MR STRYDOM: Well if you look at your house, this dumping site is that towards the right as you look at it?

MS M MOLETE: Can you repeat again, the question?

MR STRYDOM: Do you see your house, number 17 on the map?

CHAIRPERSON: No, I don't think it's but as I understand her evidence, he pointed out in the area of number 15 I think that's what he ...(indistinct).

MR STRYDOM: Yes, let's just take number 15, the 15 that's marked on the map. Do you see house 15?

MS M MOLETE: Yes I do.

MR STRYDOM: All I want to know, this dumping site, if you must take in relation to that position of that house, where would you find it, towards the right or more towards Bakwena Street and Boipatong?

MS M MOLETE: It's very far, that place is behind the shacks at the back. You move through that passage at number 15 and number 17 and there are also other shacks that you have to pass through before you arrive at that dumping place.

MR STRYDOM: But the question is which direction would you move, would you move towards the right as you look at it on the map? Or do you go to Boipatong side?

MS M MOLETE: It's not in the direction of Boipatong.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have to move further into Slovo Park?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MR STRYDOM: At what stage did you see the Hippo before you went to the dumping ground or after or on your way there?

MS M MOLETE: Before you enter to the dumping place.

MR STRYDOM: Because in your statement you said that the people left after saying "USotho, USotho" and then you said you went towards the dumping site for safety. So the point I want to make is this important aspect about the Hippo is also not in this statement?

MS M MOLETE: I said after all this I applied first aid to my child and then I went outside to look for my husband and then when I was at the back of my sister's shed I saw this Hippo.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, now on the third page of your statement you said

"I will not be able to point out any of the suspects because it was dark. I was confused and they were too many."

Is that statement a correct statement?

MS M MOLETE: No, it's not correct.

MR STRYDOM: What's wrong with that portion of the statement?

MS M MOLETE: The portion that is incorrect is where you say I said could not point out those people because it was at night and that portion that reads that I said I was confused I did not say that I could not be able to point them because I was confused. That's not what I said.

MR STRYDOM: Do you remember what you said?

MS M MOLETE: I don't remember.

MR STRYDOM: But if you can't remember what you said how can you remember what you did not say?

MS M MOLETE: I am referring to that portion that you have just read, I don't remember me saying that.

MR STRYDOM: Tell me, during the attack just thereafter, weren't you confused?

MS M MOLETE: After how long?

MR STRYDOM: You know, during the course of that night, during the attack and during the course of that night before the next day weren't you confused?

MS M MOLETE: I don't know because I was at a hospital on a bed.

MR STRYDOM: Yes but before you went to the hospital, were you confused?

MS M MOLETE: We went to the hospital after the attack, we boarded the ambulance so I don't understand how should I answer that question because we were at that dumping place. I was afraid at that stage.

MR STRYDOM: Can you point out any one of the attackers? Say for instance the attackers come in front of you now will you be able to point them out?

MS M MOLETE: I said that man had a Balaclava, I won't be able to point him, it was at night as well.

MR STRYDOM: Yes but some of the other people, attackers, would you be able to point them out?

MS M MOLETE: I was not fighting against many people, it was only one man against my baby.

MR STRYDOM: So this portion is actually correct, I will not be able to point out any of the suspects, is that correct?

MS M MOLETE: Yes, it's correct.

MR STRYDOM: Now why were you not able to point out any of the suspects or attackers?

MS M MOLETE: I said I was attacked by one person, me and my baby and it was at night, he was a White man, that is why I am unable to point other people.

MR STRYDOM: Yes you are saying it was night and it was dark, isn't it so and you were confused and there were too many, isn't that correct?

MS M MOLETE: I didn't say I was confused and I didn't say there were many, I have already indicated that that portion is incorrect.

CHAIRPERSON: What counsel is putting to you, you've told us that you aren't able to point us to any of the suspects, is that right?

MS M MOLETE: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What he wants to find out from you is the reason for that, not that it was at night and that it was dark.

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And that these people were many?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And that you were confused?

MS M MOLETE: When this statement was written I was sick, since the attack even today I'm still sick, if that portion refers to that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you.

MR STRYDOM: When you made a statement you said you were sick, was that as a result of the attack or was it at that time that you made the statement that you had some ailment?

MS M MOLETE: As a result of the attack.

MR STRYDOM: The statement goes on to read

"Four cooking pots and my wrist watch as well as my husband's watch were stolen."

Is that correct?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: "The door wardrobe is also damaged, the total cost can be R2000. Nothing has been recovered."

Is that correct?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: So it seems to me there was no problem with the interpreter when you told him these things about what was stolen and what was damaged, is that correct?

MS M MOLETE: Yes, there was no problem.

MR STRYDOM: Now it was indicated to you that this statement was taken on the 25 March 1993. Now subsequent to that you've signed a further statement and it purports to be a statement taken or signed, over that I can't tell you, but on the 9th November 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you able to look at the original to the first statement?

MR STRYDOM: My attorney is looking for the original, what we have has another photocopy which was not cut off but the original is still not with us but I hope to get it soon.

MR LAX: Are you going to give us that uncut page?

MR STRYDOM: I can also ask my attorney to make photostat copies of that. Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.

MR STRYDOM: I want to move onto the I think, Chairperson, it's the second statement, that's the typed one.

MS PRETORIUS: Chairperson, may I just be excused just to see if I can locate the original copy? May I be excused for a couple of minutes, I'll try and look up the original copy.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Now the date that appears on this statement is November 1993, 9th November 1993. I can put to you that's during the time when the criminal trial was in progress. Do you remember that you went to Pretoria? You already said that you went to Pretoria in connection with the criminal trial at a certain time, is that correct?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Do you speak Afrikaans, do you understand it?

MS M MOLETE: I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you understand Afrikaans?

MS M MOLETE: I don't know it well.

MR STRYDOM: When you spoke to the police officer Steenkamp, did you communicate with him in Afrikaans or can't you remember?

MS M MOLETE: I never spoke to Mr Steenkamp. There was a Black guy who was interpreting for Mr Steenkamp.

MR STRYDOM: Now when this statement was then taken during November did you still feel ill about the attack?

MS M MOLETE: I have been ill since the 17th June 1992 till today.

MR STRYDOM: I don't understand what you mean by that, do you mean that therefore you can't give a proper account of what happened during that day of the attack or why do you keep on saying that you are ill?

MR STRYDOM: I became ill thereafter, I had a problem with stress and I've been frequently going to the hospital and I was told that I have heart problems, even today I still have those problems.

MR STRYDOM: I understand that but I just want to find out if that effects your ability to explain to us what happened on the day of the attack or not?

MS M MOLETE: Like this lady who is sitting next to me, they know that I can have fits, I sometimes get fits. That is since this happened to me, like now I don't feel well because now we are recounting what happened on the 17th. I fell during the Truth Commission hearings and I was sent to the hospital.

MR STRYDOM: I will leave it at that. I just want to ask you certain questions about this statement. I'm going to refer to certain portions of paragraph 4. I'm going to translate as I carry on, if I'm incorrect just correct me.

"Two male persons looked into the window and said in Zulu, we are looking for weapons."

Is that correct?

MS M MOLETE: I did not say there were two and they never asked for weapons, they said we should take out our guns.

MR STRYDOM: So how many people did you say said that?

MS M MOLETE: On the window I could see three people.

MR STRYDOM: "Whilst I was on my way to speak to the two other males, took off a corrugated iron on the side of the house" or "torn off a piece of corrugated iron on the side of the house and came into the room."

Is that correct?

MS M MOLETE: That is not correct, that is not true.

MR STRYDOM: So what's the untrue part of that?

MS M MOLETE: Everything that you have read is not correct, I never told about corrugated iron.

MR STRYDOM: And that the impression that I gain from this is that there were two people initially and then another two so we're talking about four people. You testified here about three people. Is that the difference between your evidence here and the statement?

MS M MOLETE: Yes, that's the difference because you asked me about the people who were standing at the window, you did not ask me about the people who were removing the corrugated iron.

MR LAX: Did I hear you correctly, did you talk about corrugated iron now being removed?

MS M MOLETE: I was saying what Mr Strydom has said, I never said that they were removing corrugated iron, I said they told us to hand over our weapons.

MR STRYDOM: So at no stage did they remove corrugated iron to gain entry into the house?

MS M MOLETE: I don't know about the people who were standing at the window, I said that there were many people outside so I don't know who removed the corrugated irons.

MR STRYDOM: So corrugated iron was in fact removed is that what you're saying but you don't know by whom?

MS M MOLETE: Yes, hardboards were used to build the shack and they were removed, not corrugated irons.

MR STRYDOM: I'm going to read you a bit lower down.

CHAIRPERSON: Did anyone remove corrugated iron?

MS M MOLETE: They removed those hardboards but I don't know who actually removed those hardboards.

MR STRYDOM: But in your statement to Mr Steenkamp you didn't tell him that someone removed corrugated iron?

MS M MOLETE: I was not talking directly to Mr Steenkamp, I was talking to this policeman who was interpreting for Mr Steenkamp and I mentioned that my sister's shack was not built by corrugated iron but hardboards. All corrugated irons were on top of the shack, they were not used to build the shack.

CHAIRPERSON: The shack that you're talking about in which you were was that your sister's shack?

MS M MOLETE: Yes, that's my sister's shack.

CHAIRPERSON: Florence?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the one whose roof was made out of corrugated iron?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: But you did not tell the police officer, the Black police officer, who was interpreting for you that someone removed the corrugated iron?

MS M MOLETE: I said there is someone who removed those hardboards and they entered from that opening but I cannot say who removed those hardboards because there were many people there.

MR STRYDOM: Did you see the people who removed the hardboard?

CHAIRPERSON: I thought she said she couldn't say who removed it. Is that right?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: I want to move onto another portion of your statement.

"The door between the kitchen and the room was in the meantime being forced open and I want to flee outside with the kid. At that stage the candle that burned in the room died or went out and the lamp which was burning in the kitchen fell and broke and there was no light in the house."

Is that portion of your statement correct?

MS M MOLETE: It's not correct. I said the candle fell in the bedroom but the paraffin lamp in the kitchen was still burning, it was on top of the cupboard in the kitchen.

CHAIRPERSON: And this lamp burned throughout the attack?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: So can you give any explanation why this portion appears in your statement that the lamp fell and broke and there was no light in the house?

MS M MOLETE: Well I don't know.

MR STRYDOM: I want to suggest to you that is what you told the person that took the statement?

MS M MOLETE: I told you that I don't know Afrikaans well and you said it's Mr Steenkamp who wrote that statement. I had an interpreter so I don't know why that appeared on my statement.

MR STRYDOM: The next portion of the statement, just tell me if that's correct?

"In the door between the two rooms a person with a Balaclava over his head, a polo neck jersey and gloves stormed me."

Is that correct? He stormed towards you. "Hy het my afgestorm."

MS M MOLETE: Can you please repeat that question again?

MR STRYDOM: "In the door between the two rooms a person charged me. The person had a Balaclava over his head, a polo neck jersey and gloves."

MS M MOLETE: He was not trying to attack me, he was really attacking me.

MR STRYDOM: I want to put to you is that ...(intervention)

MS M MOLETE: May I have a break? A short break please?

We can go on.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you not want to have a short break?

MS M MOLETE: Yes there was something that was disturbing me.

May I please go outside for a while?

CHAIRPERSON: We will take an adjournment and come back at 10 past 3.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

MIRIAM MOLETE: (s.u.o.)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM: (cont)

Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, in the meantime a better copy of the second page of the first statement was added to all the copies. I also have now available the original statement if I can just show this statement to the witness to identify her signature on the third page.

Do you identify your signature on the last page of that statement?

MS M MOLETE: Yes I can see it.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you Chairperson, will it be necessary to hand in the original?

CHAIRPERSON: Are we talking about the second statement/

MR STRYDOM: Ja, the first statement, the one dated the 25th March 1993 where she testified that she cannot see her signature properly.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: The first statement.

CHAIRPERSON: That's right, the first statement. Okay.

Yes, very well.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, we'll put the statement back in the police docket, it will be there.

I'm returning now to the second statement, that is the typed statement on the second page, paragraph 7.

MR LAX: It's the third statement.

MR STRYDOM: Third sorry, I must write that.

I'm not going to read the full statement to you but what I want to put to you is that again in this statement no mention is made of the people in camouflage clothing and there's also no mention of the Hippo or the Koyoco which you saw accompanying a group as they were leaving towards the factories. Now do you have any comment why this again does not appear in the statement?

MS M MOLETE: I would not know because this statement has been typed using a typewriter. When this was done I was not there, they might have added to what I said, I'm not sure about that.

MR STRYDOM: Yes but you signed the typed statement?

MS M MOLETE: The statement was hand-written. The typed one I only see now at these hearings.

MR STRYDOM: You see in this typed statement you said that after or thereafter, that's paragraph 7, the second sentence

"Thereafter I went outside but I couldn't see my husband. I looked around but I couldn't see my husband. I shouted vigorously and Saldana came from the direction of his house and told me I mustn't make so much noise because the attackers will hear me."

Is that correct, did you say that to the person who took the statement?

MS M MOLETE: The whole portion you read is not correct.

MR STRYDOM: ...(inaudible) so I'm sure the person who took the statement did not know the name Saldana, it must have come from you, isn't it so?

MS M MOLETE: When I first gave the statement I mentioned the people who were in the house. I never shouted. I went to Saldana's place for help.

MR STRYDOM: And when you went to Saldana's house did you see that that house was in total disarray?

MS M MOLETE: That is at my sister or brother's place there, at Saldana's place, there was no fence at Florence's place, I went through the gate into the house carrying the baby, I did not shout.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is Saldana?

MS M MOLETE: Saldana is my sister's husband.

MR STRYDOM: Is his surname Mnisi?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: And your sister is Poleng Mnisi?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And did they live in Slovo Park at the time of the attack?

MS M MOLETE: Are you referring to the Mnisi family?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Was their house opposite the shack that was attacked where you were in?

MS M MOLETE: Slovo Park is an area of shacks, the whole area.

MR STRYDOM: Yes but my question is this, the shack of the Mnisi's close to the shack or opposite the shack where you were when you were attacked?

MS M MOLETE: That is opposite to number 17 and that place is number 19, it's next door.

MR STRYDOM: Yes. When you left the shack where you were attacked when was the first time after that when you saw Florence again?

MS M MOLETE: After the attack I went to hospital, I saw them as they came to me at the hospital.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry. Subject to my interpretation being correct, this sentence says

"I screamed hysterically"

Is that a proper interpretation?

MR STRYDOM: I translate it as "vigorously" or very, very loudly. Or the hysterical may also be correct, it's very close.

MR BERGER: I don't think it's hysterically, I screamed terribly.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Now what was the response to this statement?

MR STRYDOM: She said she never shouted.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. You never screamed?

MS M MOLETE: No Sir, I did not.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay and Saldana did not come from his house and tell you "Do not make such a noise otherwise the attackers will hear you"?

MS M MOLETE: He did not come out of his house, I went to his house.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, thank you Chair.

And it's stated here:

"We went to Saldana's house where we saw that everything was in a total disarray"

Is that portion correct?

MS M MOLETE: No.

MR STRYDOM: What's wrong there?

MS M MOLETE: Where you read that everything was in disarray at Saldana's house.

MR STRYDOM: Now wasn't the situation that things were turned upside down there?

MS M MOLETE: Things were not in the normal state, windows were broken.

MR STRYDOM: And inside the house, was everything in order?

MS M MOLETE: I had just arrived on that day on the day of the attack. What I found wrong was the broken windows.

CHAIRPERSON: Just before you go on, there is a sentence here. Can you remember I just read to you the portion of the statement which indicates that you screamed, Saldana came out of his house to warn you not to make a noise, do you remember that portion?

MS M MOLETE: Yes I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Right. Now after this statement continues and it says

"I said to Saldana there was no one because they had already left."

And I think by "they" here reference is being made to the attackers. Did you say this to Saldana?

MS M MOLETE: I went to Saldana's place and I said to him I need help. I cannot see Pule.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, so you did not say to Saldana "well there was no one else" that was all of them, I mean "everyone is gone"?

MS M MOLETE: That is so, I never said that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. And you went to his house as I understand your evidence?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And then did you find him? That is Saldana?

MS M MOLETE: I found them all in the house.

CHAIRPERSON: They were inside the house?

MS M MOLETE: Yes inside the shack.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Yes Mr Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: At the stage you went to Saldana's house had you already seen the Hippo?

MS M MOLETE: I had finished that portion, I saw the Hippo whilst I was behind the house before I went to Saldana's place.

CHAIRPERSON: When you arrived at Saldana's house, was he with someone there or was he all by himself?

MS M MOLETE: He was with his wife and child.

CHAIRPERSON: Well see the statement that I've been reading to you continues to say

"In response to my question as to where my sister was he said he did not know."

I beg your pardon:

"In response to my question as to where my sister and her child were, his response was he did not know."

Do you know anything about that?

MS M MOLETE: No, that's nothing I know.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, can I just clarify something with you? The shack number 17 that you sent to, whose shack was it?

MS M MOLETE: Florence Molete.

ADV SIGODI: And the other one, Saldana's house?

MS M MOLETE: Number 19, that is one who follows me, Jeanette Molete.

ADV SIGODI: So both of these shacks belonged to your sisters, your two sisters.

MS M MOLETE: That is correct, the two shacks belongs to my sisters.

CHAIRPERSON: Is Jeanette and Pule one and the same person?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh okay.

ADV SIGODI: So when you arrived at Saldana's house you say you found him with his wife and with his child, Is that correct?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct, madam.

ADV SIGODI: What did you say to him, did you ask him anything or did you say anything to him?

MS M MOLETE: I said to him I'm looking for Pule, where is Pule, my child has been injured and Saldana said no, leave for the dumping place so that I can get an ambulance. He never answered me where my husband was.

MR STRYDOM: When you got to Saldana's house did you tell him that you just saw a Hippo driving up the street towards the factory?

MS M MOLETE: There was no time for such statements. I told him I need help, I was carrying a child, I asked him where is Pule, that is when he said we must leave for Madiki so that he can arrange for ambulance.

MR STRYDOM: And did you find - sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: When you went to Saldana's house you had already seen the Hippo?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: The Hippo, was it clearly visible so that many people could have seen it driving in Bakwena Street?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Apart from the attackers did you see when you went outside when you saw the Hippo, other people from Slovo Park or Boipatong in the streets?

MS M MOLETE: There was nobody it was just that Hippo and those people alone.

MR STRYDOM: And what was the colour of the Hippo?

MS M MOLETE: The Hippo's colour was mustard yellow.

MR STRYDOM: Was it a camouflage or not?

MS M MOLETE: I said it was yellow.

MR STRYDOM: No but I just want to find out if it was a bright yellow, you know this bright yellow that the police paint their vehicles with, like the vehicles that sometimes stand outside here. Was it a bright yellow colour or was it you say a mustard yellow, is it a darker yellow or what?

MS M MOLETE: It was this light because it was clear outside.

MR STRYDOM: I want to put to you that I've got a statement in my possession of Poleng Mnisi, that forms part of the bundle more towards the front, Chairperson, and what I want to put, I'm not going to read this statement to you but I want to put to you that Poleng Mnisi never made mention of any Koyoco or any Hippo in her statement and I've also got a statement of Florence Molete, your other sister, and similarly she does not state in this statement that at any stage she saw any Hippo or Koyoco.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is the second person?

MR STRYDOM: Florence Molete, yes.

So it seems to me that you were the only sister that saw this vehicle, is that according to your knowledge also the situation?

MS M MOLETE: Each one of us made in the statement in the manner they observed the events and this is how I observed the events.

MR STRYDOM: These people with the camouflage clothing, did they have overcoats on or not?

MS M MOLETE: No.

MR STRYDOM: And I think just to make it clear, also not Balaclavas, they had caps on? Is that correct?

MS M MOLETE: That is not correct. They had camouflage overalls and caps.

MR STRYDOM: You see because according to Florence Molete in her statement at page 2 of her statement, on top of the statement appears the figures 1610, the second page of Florence Molete's statement.

MR LAX: Mr Strydom, where about on that page, can you just refer?

MR STRYDOM: At the bottom of the page.

MR LAX: Is that paragraph 4, is that right?

MR STRYDOM: Yes the last portion. It stated

"When I got outside it was full moon, the light bright and I saw a White male person wearing a (camouflage) and an overcoat which was unbuttoned and it made it possible for me to see the clothing. He was having a rifle which was pointed towards the shack. Even though he was wearing a Balaclava, his face was fully visible and I could clearly see that he is a White person. I then ran back into the shack and called Pule."

So this could not have been the same person you have seen, is that correct?

MS M MOLETE: I do not know because Florence was at another point and that's her statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you still - when you called Florence into the bedroom can you still remember where she was?

MS M MOLETE: She was in the kitchen.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. You wouldn't know what she was doing, would you, at the time?

MS M MOLETE: I said she was preparing to sleep, as visitors at her house she decided to move to the kitchen and sleep there.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay and did she respond to your call?

MS M MOLETE: We did not shout, I was whispering. I said to her come and see, they are attacking Pule. That is when they were breaking this door as she tried to come to me.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.

MR STRYDOM: And lastly I want to put to you something, I want also to put to you what Poleng Mnisi said in her statement, that's the one after Florence's statement, Florence Molete's statement, Poleng Mnisi on the third page of that statement and we know now she was in a house just opposite yours and she stated on page three of her statement

"During the attack I did not see nor hear any vehicles. No one was injured in my family."

And then she went further to describe the damage. Now I just want to put to you that she didn't see the vehicles and she was very close to your house nor heard. Let me ask this way, apart from seeing ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: She was at house number 19, was it?

MR STRYDOM: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.

MR LAX: Just one other thing Mr Strydom, you used the plural of vehicle, the statements singular, be that as it may.

MR STRYDOM: Yes it is. Did you at any stage hear any vehicles apart from seeing them, or apart from seeing it?

MS M MOLETE: I'm not aware of Puleng's statement. I'm much aware of my statement now you are referring me to Jeanette's statement.

MR STRYDOM: No, what I'm asking you now is did you hear a vehicle during the attack or just thereafter or before?

MS M MOLETE: No, I never heard a vehicle.

MR STRYDOM: When you came out of the hospital did you lay a charge in relation to the injuries you sustained and Mita sustained?

MS M MOLETE: I did not lay a charge.

MR STRYDOM: Did you give a statement to the peace desk in Boipatong and told them what happened to you and Mita?

MS M MOLETE: I'm not sure to which body you are referring to, I do not understand the peace desk you are referring to.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know what the Independent Board of Enquiry is?

MS M MOLETE: No, I do not understand.

MR STRYDOM: Let me just put it this way, apart from the time you gave the statement to the police you never gave any other person a statement, you never told your story what you saw about the police vehicles and about the Whites to any person that took a statement from you?

MS M MOLETE: I cannot recall at that time.

MR STRYDOM: Because if I look at the statement it appears the first time you told a person that took a statement about White people being involved was about eight months after the attack or nine months?

CHAIRPERSON: Where would that occur?

MR STRYDOM: That's the date of the first statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.

MR STRYDOM: What I want to ask you isn't it something you made up at a later stage for reasons known only to you, that White people were involved in the attack?

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not too sure what is the basis of the proposition because as I understand it this is the very first statement that she made to the police, there is nothing which indicates at least of the record that she had made a previous statement in which no mention of the police is made so once it is accepted that the very first statement she made she mentioned the police, how does one jump from that and conclude that it is something she made up at a later stage.

MR STRYDOM: Maybe I'll just put it a different way.

CHAIRPERSON: If she made it up, she must have made it up from the very beginning of the first statement that she made to the police?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, but she never made a statement as far as we know at this stage at an earlier time, but nine months thereafter she said that White people were also involved.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but do we know what statement she made earlier on?

MR STRYDOM: Well that's what I asked her.

Did you make a statement to any other person before the first statement you made to the police in stating that you saw White people?

MS M MOLETE: There is no previous statement that I made except the one I made to Mr Steenkamp.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's put it this way, we know that she made a statement to the police. Is that right, do you confirm that?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Apart from those statements that you made to the police, prior to that did you make any statements to any person as far as you can recall?

MS M MOLETE: The statement I made was the recent one except this one as we came to the Truth Commission and there's no way that I made a statement before this one.

CHAIRPERSON: Prior to making statements to the police you have not made any other statement?

MS M MOLETE: I have not done so except when I went for the Truth Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and at the Truth Commission did you give evidence?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: I've got no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM

CHAIRPERSON: The next person is you, Mr Lowies.

MR LOWIES: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We were supposed to have taken a break at about 3 o'clock but unfortunately we had to break much earlier so shall we take a short break now until about 10 past 4?

MR LOWIES: I'd appreciate, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Right. Ms Molete, I understand from your earlier evidence that you do not feel, well that you still have some ailment?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Whenever you feel that for some reason you cannot continue giving evidence, that you need a break, would you indicate to us?

MS M MOLETE: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we will take a short adjournment and we'll come back at 10 past 4.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Molete, may I remind you that you're still under oath?

MIRIAM MOLETE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Lowies?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LOWIES: Is it possible Mrs Molete that the person who assaulted you could have been an Albino?

MS M MOLETE: No, it was a White person.

MR LOWIES: Why do you exclude the possibility that the person could have been an Albino?

MS M MOLETE: He did not look like an Albino.

MR LOWIES: Now how does he differ from an Albino?

MS M MOLETE: I do not know, Sir.

MR LOWIES: Is it not so that the only part that you according to you saw was his nose which could mean that he could have been a coloured for that matter as well, a coloured person with a light complexion?

MS M MOLETE: It was not only the nose that I could see, I also mentioned the eyes.

MR LOWIES: And if you had a look at the eyes and the nose could he have been an Albino or a Coloured person?

MS M MOLETE: Coloured people have brown eyes.

MR LOWIES: Now can you describe the opening of this Balaclava?

MS M MOLETE: I said the person who attacked me, the eyes and the nose were not concealed.

MR LOWIES: Now what I want to know from you was just in this Balaclava were there just two holes for the eyes and the hole for the nose or was the whole Balaclava open?

MS M MOLETE: There were two circles around the eye area and I think at the nose it was not covered. I did not see the witness pointing the nose or not. Round the eyes he had circles on the Balaclava and she's pointing around the nose where it was not concealed or the Balaclava did not conceal the nose.

CHAIRPERSON: Now was there just an opening for the nose?

MS M MOLETE: Yes.

MR LOWIES: So it's not as if the whole face - sorry, the whole area where the eyes and the nose are were open with a square? Two holes and a hole for a nose, in actual fact three holes in the Balaclava, correct?

MS M MOLETE: That is how I saw it.

MR LOWIES: And there was no attempt made to paint this part of the nose black according to your observation?

MS M MOLETE: No, on that score I do not know.

CHAIRPERSON: The part of the nose that you saw was not painted black?

MS M MOLETE: I said it was not painted because I could see this was a White person.

MR LOWIES: The two people in the camouflage uniforms that you described, you could see their faces, yes or no?

MS M MOLETE: Yes.

MR LOWIES: According to Mr Nosenga the people who he saw who were White had their faces painted. Now these people that you saw and that were White on your version, did they have painted faces? I'm not talking about the attacker now, I'm talking about the other two chaps.

MS M MOLETE: Their faces were not painted.

MR LOWIES: Can you describe the caps that they wore?

MS M MOLETE: They were camouflage type caps and the clothing went along with the caps, looked much the same as the caps.

MR LOWIES: And you say what they were wearing was overalls, not a shirt and a pair of trousers?

MS M MOLETE: Their clothing looked like overalls, these that you would have a belt around your waist and they had caps.

MR LOWIES: Now were these peak caps, in other words, that come out to the front or was it more like a beret such as you are wearing?

MS M MOLETE: Those were caps not berets, they never look anything like berets.

MR LOWIES: Your attacker, the one that stabbed you, what was the colour of his Balaclava?

MS M MOLETE: I did say that I do not know the colour to the Balaclava.

MR LOWIES: Yet you could see that his eyes were blue?

MS M MOLETE: I did see the eyes because the Apollo light was cursed into the house and the moonlight and this light next to the table.

MR LOWIES: ...(inaudible) light next to the table?

MS M MOLETE: Paraffin light.

MR LOWIES: If the paraffin light was not on, would you still have been able to see his eyes, the colour of his eyes?

MS M MOLETE: No.

MR LOWIES: Now when did you observe him for the first time. Let me explain what I mean. According to you the person stabbed you in the eye with a sharp object. At that stage were you already aware of the fact that he was a White person, as you say?

MS M MOLETE: I was aware that he was a White person before he stabbed me with a sharpened instrument.

MR LOWIES: What weapons did this person carry?

MS M MOLETE: I saw the person who attacked me, a panga he was carrying and a sharpened instrument, so called Umjamenjo.

MR STRYDOM: In both hands?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: What is the length of the sharpened object, could you just indicate to us?

MS M MOLETE: I cannot estimate the length and I won't be correct because I saw a person stabbing me. If I did not stab backwards he would have poked out my eye.

MR LOWIES: No but can't you indicate to us the length with your hands?

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the length of the?

MR LOWIES: The sharpened object.

CHAIRPERSON: Umjamenjo. Yes.

MR LOWIES: Thank you Chair.

MS M MOLETE: No Sir, I would not know how other Umjamenjo's lengths are.

MR LAX: Sorry, Mrs Molete, you're being asked to - not about other Umjamenjos, you're being asked about this particular one that stabbed you. If you can't remember that's fine but you're not been asked about other ones, you're being asked about this one.

MS M MOLETE: I cannot estimate it's length, Sir.

MR LOWIES: Is there a specific reason why you can't? Didn't you see properly or what is the reason?

MS M MOLETE: I could see but I tried to protect myself with my hand.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the position that because you were trying to protect yourself from this onslaught, you didn't pay much attention to this Umjamenjo so as to be able to give us the size of the blade or the Umjamenjo itself?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct and I thank you for the question you've raised.

MR STRYDOM: When you saw the person entering the premises or your shack with these weapons, were you afraid?

MS M MOLETE: I was not that afraid.

MR STRYDOM: Now obviously when you saw him you had to make sure whether he was in possession of a weapon, not so?

MS M MOLETE: Please repeat the question?

MR LOWIES: When you saw the person obviously you had to make sure whether he had weapons, not so, whether he was carrying weapons with him?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

MR LOWIES: And even at that stage you were not able to discern what the length of this weapon was, the sharpened object?

MS M MOLETE: I have already stated my answer.

MR LOWIES: And I take it you did not have much time to look at this person and the weapons he was carrying, not so?

MS M MOLETE: You are correct.

MR LOWIES: All in all, how long would you say were you in the presence of this person?

MS M MOLETE: It was a few seconds or minutes.

MR LOWIES: Now wasn't there a situation where somebody else tried to grab the child from you and I'm referring to Mita?

MS M MOLETE: There was nobody else, it was myself and the attacker alone. The rest I did not see. Her father was already taken out, they had taken him out.

MR LOWIES: And Florence, at that stage?

MS M MOLETE: She was busy with her attackers also.

MR LOWIES: Because Florence says in her statement, it's the eleventh page, Mr Chairman, paragraph 4, approximately in the middle thereof

"I managed to reach Miriam who was having Mita in her arms. At the time when I was to take Mita, one of the attackers chopped me on the head with a panga."

Did this not happen?

MS M MOLETE: That never happened to me, I am not aware of the facts contained in Florence's statement.

MR LOWIES: And then she goes on to state

"Miriam cried that her child Mita was killed."

Is that correct?

MS M MOLETE: That is not correct.

MR LOWIES: Did you not cry when your child was hacked by this person?

MS M MOLETE: At the time he stabbed me I did not cry, I cried afterwards as we went to the dumping place and after the child had fainted.

MR LOWIES: Did you not shout at all at that stage when the child was injured?

MS M MOLETE: I did not shout, I was trying to save her life.

MR LOWIES: And at that stage when the child was hacked and when you got injured on your thumb as you described, Florence was not in your immediate vicinity, on your version?

MS M MOLETE: Sir, I could not see her, I was trying to help my daughter and myself also.

CHAIRPERSON: But you don't know exactly where she was at the time?

MS M MOLETE: She was busy with her attackers. I was right at the door, that is where my fight ended, at the door.

CHAIRPERSON: And where was Florence with her attackers?

MS M MOLETE: She was right there in the kitchen, to watch the door as you move out of the house, she was not next to me.

MR LOWIES: But there was never a situation whereby she attempted to grab the child or take the child from you and then you were hacked or the child was hacked by this person?

MS M MOLETE: The child was hacked in my hands not in Florence's arms.

MR LOWIES: No, that's not the question, she didn't even try to take the child from you, that's what I'm asking?

MS M MOLETE: No.

MR LOWIES: Did you at any stage become hysterical?

MS M MOLETE: Since the 17th I've been like that, the very day or night of the attack.

MR LOWIES: I don't follow, if could just explain? Do you know what hysterical means? Crying, sobbing, uncontrollably.

MS M MOLETE: That was the situation when I came from hospital.

MR LOWIES: Not on the night of the attack?

MS M MOLETE: The day of the attack I went to the hospital after we were attacked. I was there until I was discharged, that is when now my problems began and then I was disturbed.

MR LOWIES: What do you mean disturbed?

CHAIRPERSON: I am told that what was conveyed to her by way of interpretation is that she was deeply disturbed or something to that effect.

INTERPRETER: Chairperson, Mr Lowies stated that was she not hysterical, I therefore interpreted that to mean she was deeply disturbed as you say seSotho, I said ...(indistinct).

CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr Lowies has just indicated what he means by hysterical, that is crying uncontrollably, do you understand that Mr Interpreter, as opposed to being deeply disturbed?

INTERPRETER: Yes I did get that and I corrected that version of the question.

MS M MOLETE: I do not understand whether he means on that day or thereafter?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, the witness also said that after she left the hospital, my instructions are that she was suffering from nerves and but that wasn't what - I was going to object to the depth of this cross-examination and I wonder whether it's strictly necessary to go to such depth to prove a point that is not readily apparent to me. Perhaps if my learned friend can put the point rather than going to these depths it might save the witness some anguish.

CHAIRPERSON: Well Mr Berger, you've got to understand that Mr Lowies has instructions. It is unfortunate but these matters ought to be probed to the extent that there might be relevant and issues of credibility.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I do understand that and that's why my hand has been sitting here and I haven't objected because I understand this.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's clarify this aspect first, let's go back to this question whether she cried uncontrollably, you know, after this incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you ask the question, Mr Berger?

MR LOWIES: Chair sorry, I have to apologise, I did not hear you.

CHAIRPERSON: We now know that the - what was conveyed to her was not accurately conveyed to her.

MR LOWIES: I'll go through the process again with your permission.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LOWIES: Ma'am, the night of the incident there at the scene, did you cry uncontrollably or sob uncontrollably because of the fear and because of the brutalness of the attack?

MS M MOLETE: No, that is not correct.

MR LOWIES: However, if I do understand you correctly that as a result of the attack you now suffer from nerves?

MS M MOLETE: That is so.

MR LOWIES: Does that have an influence on your recollection as to what happened on that night?

MS M MOLETE: It is not always that the same happens, this only comes out when we have hearings of this matter or if it happens that I look back at my life since 1992 to date.

MR LOWIES: Yes but my question is, the fact that you suffer from your nerves and that you are well as you testified earlier on, does that have an influence on your ability to recall the incidents on that night? Sorry to have to ask you this.

MS M MOLETE: I do not understand your question.

MR LOWIES: The question is this, you've told us that when you testified about these events that occurred to you, you suffer from the nerves amongst other things. Okay, what counsel wants to find out, the nerves that you suffer from, does that effect your ability to recall the events?

MS M MOLETE: No, they do not.

MR LOWIES: We've heard your evidence earlier on when cross-examined by Mr Strydom next to me that you said that at the time when the statements were taken you were sick. Did you refer to your nerves, the nerve situation that you have?

MS M MOLETE: I said since this incident I have been an ill person, I've got a heart situation at the moment.

CHAIRPERSON: What you are being asked is this, you know, when you were asked about the statements that you made to the police, you mentioned amongst other things that when this statement was taken you were sick. Do you recall that?

MS M MOLETE: Yes I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what counsel wants to find out, were you referring to the nerves that you suffer from amongst other things?

MS M MOLETE: Yes, I was referring to the nerves.

MR LOWIES: When Mr Strydom cross-examined you regarding the contents of the written statement, he explained that when the statement was written, I was sick. In the process arguing that you could not think properly from the gist of your answer at that stage, is that not correct?

MR BERGER: No, that's not what the witness said.

CHAIRPERSON: What did she say?

MR BERGER: She said she was sick, she didn't elaborate on it, as my learned friend has.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lowies?

MR LOWIES: Chairman, that was used as a reason why she could not properly recall what happened there and could not properly relate to the police what happened there which is just another word of stating what I have - another manner in stating in what I have just stated.

CHAIRPERSON: I beg your pardon?

MR LOWIES: Which is just another way, Chairman, of stating what I have put to her, but I can rephrase the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LOWIES: You see, ma'am, when you specifically mentioned this and I've got a quote here, when the statement was written "I was sick", you did so in reply to questions put by Mr Strydom regarding differences and omissions in your statement to the police. My question therefore is the following, did your illness, your nerves, have an effect at the time or had it an effect at the time when the statement was taken by the police?

MS M MOLETE: No.

MR LOWIES: So when these statements that Mr Strydom referred you to were taken, you were in the same position as you are today, regarding the recollection of what happened on the night of the incident, correct?

MS M MOLETE: Are you referring to the day I gave in the statements to the police?

MR LOWIES: Ja, the days, ja.

MS M MOLETE: I was not that ill that I could not speak, I was able to walk as is the situation today.

MR LOWIES: And your recollection was the same more or less as it is today, that's what I'm trying to find out.

MS M MOLETE: Well, I wouldn't know on that one, no it wouldn't be the same.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me put it to you this way, you will tell us whether that's true or not. As far as you are aware, cast it in your mind back at a time when you gave the statement in to the police, as far as you are aware, was there anything which effected your ability to recall the events that took place on the 17th June?

MS M MOLETE: That is so, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, what is it?

MS M MOLETE: The ability not to fend for myself because my left hand is the one that I use.

INTERPRETER: Chairperson, I was asking her to repeat what she said earlier, I missed that one also. She said something about her left hand being her right hand but I wanted to get the accurate one.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS M MOLETE: I said my hand, my left hand is the one I use and my child is confined to a wheelchair. She's growing up, I cannot hold her up like the time I used to and all this in my mind effects my life and that the father who used to fend for her is now dead.

CHAIRPERSON: Now did all of this effect your ability to recall the events?

MS M MOLETE: Like Mr Lowies asked me those were all the things that effected my life that I cannot prosper or fend for myself, those are the things.

MR LAX: I'm still unclear about the way you've answered these questions. You're talking about things that have effected your life and your future. What you're being asked is this, these terrible things that have happened to you and this experience that happened to you that has left you with nerves and other ailments, has that effected the way you are able to tell the story, the way you're able to remember what happened on that night in any way? That's what you're being asked, do you understand?

MS M MOLETE: Yes I do. No, they are not.

MR LAX: Thank you Mr Lowies.

MR LOWIES: Thank you Mr Lax.

So ma'am, it did not effect you then when you made the statements to the police and it does not effect you here today to tell the story and remember the events?

MS M MOLETE: That is so.

MR LOWIES: So if you said to Mr Strydom that the reason why you omitted certain items and why there are discrepancies in your statements and your evidence today and you blame that on your illness, that should not be read as such?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, she did not say that, in fact her evidence was to the contrary, she said "I did say those things but the interpreter was speaking Sepedi and I was speaking SeTswana and I don't know it wasn't recorded." That was her evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: There are some other occasions where reference was made by her to the effect that when she gave the statement she was sick.

MR BERGER: Yes but ...(intervention)

MR LOWIES: Your answer?

MS M MOLETE: May you please repeat the question, Sir?

MR LOWIES: On at least two or three occasions you stated to Mr Strydom the reason for certain omissions were as a result of your sickness and the omissions, I refer to the omissions in the statements.

CHAIRPERSON: It did not say it directly as you're putting it. Perhaps what you should do is maybe her ask her whether is that what she was suggesting?

MR LOWIES: That's it Chair, that's actually how it should be read, my question should be read.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LOWIES: Were you suggesting to Mr Strydom that your illness had an effect on your ability to tell your version of the events on the night of the attack to the police?

MS M MOLETE: No, I did not say so.

MR LOWIES: Okay. Now these people that you've described as the White people, did they wear headbands?

MS M MOLETE: No, Sir.

MR LOWIES: Now besides them, did everybody else on what you saw that night, wear headbands or were there other people that you saw without headbands?

MS M MOLETE: I did not see them all, those that I'd seen had red headbands and white headbands.

MR LOWIES: Now do you know the difference - sorry Chair?

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't quite catch the answer to the last question.

MR LAX: Those that she saw had red headbands or white headbands. She didn't see all of them but those that she did see ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, let's put the question again. Just put the question again?

MR LOWIES: Thank you.

Now, besides these White people that you described, did everybody else that you saw that night wear headbands?

MS M MOLETE: Those who were at my sister's place they had red and white headbands.

MR LOWIES: All of them except the Whites, as you say?

MS M MOLETE: Those that I have seen, Sir.

MR LOWIES: Yes testified that you requested Mr Kekana to speak SeTswana?

CHAIRPERSON: Just a minute, by "my sister's place" you're referring to Florence's house?

MS M MOLETE: As I peeped through this place they were at Jeanette's place number 19, not 17.

CHAIRPERSON: So the persons that you saw who had either red or white bands, they were at Poleng's place?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, yes.

MR LOWIES: Thank you Chair.

And the people that you saw at the place where you were attacked except for the three people that you say were Whites, did they wear headbands?

MS M MOLETE: I say so.

MR LOWIES: Now to come to Mr Kekana, why did you request him to speak SeTswana?

MS M MOLETE: It is because I can understand SeTswana, that's my husband's first language. However, I cannot understand properly Sepedi therefore I said to them if he can not speak SeSotho, better speak SeTswana for me to understand.

MR LOWIES: So Kekana was speaking Sepedi?

MS M MOLETE: He mixed languages.

MR LOWIES: Which languages?

MS M MOLETE: He spoke in SeTswana and his SeSotho was not that fluent and he leaned much to Sepedi language.

MR LOWIES: Sorry, I couldn't catch the last part?

MS M MOLETE: He leaned much more to Sepedi in his speech.

CHAIRPERSON: So Mr Kekana spoke a mix of SeTswana and Sepedi?

MS M MOLETE: His SeSotho was not fluent, you could hear that his language leaned much more to Sepedi.

MR LOWIES: But in your statement it reads at page 10, the 10th page, your first statement, said that it was a statement in Sotho? Now did you speak Sotho with each other as reflected in the statement?

MS M MOLETE: Yes I spoke in SeSotho.

MR LOWIES: Oh, my mistake, I'm at page ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand what you're saying, just correct me if I'm wrong, you spoke to Kekana in SeSotho, is that right?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: But he could not speak fluent Sotho?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: His was a mixture of SeTswana and Pedi but there was more Pedi to it than Sotho?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay and that is why you then you ask if he could speak SeTswana?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

MR LOWIES: I have to just correct a question that I put to you. On the 29th page, your first statement, it states that the statement was taken in SeSotho? First sentence, states in SeSotho under oath, page 29 of the bundle. So it appears to me that both of you spoke in SeSotho?

MR LAX: No, she speaks SeSotho, that's what it states.

MR LOWIES: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: The witness has just explained how this occurred. They were supposed to Sotho as I understand it. Mr Kekana was not fluent in SeSotho, he spoke a mixture of Tswana and Pedi but there was more Pedi than there was Tswana which is why she then requested him to speak in Tswana.

MR LOWIES: Thank you Chair.

But you were telling him what happened on the night, not he telling you?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct, Sir.

MR LOWIES: So he was actually just asking you questions to get your version of what happened, is that correct?

MS M MOLETE: May you please repeat the question please?

MR LOWIES: So he actually just asked you questions as to what happened and then you related to him what was the situation and what transpired that night?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

MR LOWIES: And do I then understand correctly, you couldn't understand his questions to you?

CHAIRPERSON: When did she say she didn't understand the questions?

MR LOWIES: She did not say that.

CHAIRPERSON: She did not say? Then what are putting.

MR LOWIES: She said - sorry Chairman, the way I had it is the following, she said that he was only asking her questions to relate to him what happened, therefore the conclusion, this is the question, that she did not understand his questions. I'm asking her that, because her version is she only asked the questions as to what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: I can't understand, I mean how do you come to that conclusion in light of her direct evidence to the effect that this man spoke in Tswana and Sepedi and a little bit of Sotho?

MR LOWIES: I'll leave it at that.

CHAIRPERSON: Well unless there is something to that that I can't see?

MR LOWIES: I'll retract the question, Chair.

Now according to this statement, the first statement, you acknowledged that you knew and understand the contents of this whole statement?

CHAIRPERSON: Which statement is this?

MR LOWIES: Page 29, the first statement.

CHAIRPERSON: The first statement, yes.

MR LOWIES: Do you deny that this happened?

CHAIRPERSON: You've just read to her what appears on the statement and what you've read is a certificate wherein she says she understands the contents of the statement and acknowledges, now the question?

MR LOWIES: The question is, in the light of this statement by Kekana, where it appears from the document that you have acknowledged that you know and understand the contents of this declaration, did something like this happen, in other words did Kekana ask you do you know and understand the contents of this declaration?

MS M MOLETE: After I have gained the statement he never read it to me.

MR LOWIES: And he didn't ask you either? Do you understand the statement, do you acknowledge that you know what is in the statement, words to that effect?

MS M MOLETE: I cannot remember, Sir.

MR LOWIES: Did he ask you to take the oath?

MS M MOLETE: What do you mean, Sir?

MR LOWIES: Whether you have any objection to the taking of the oath and whether you consider it as binding on your conscience and to say so help me God?

MS M MOLETE: That was never stated to us.

MR LOWIES: Now Chairman, my attention is drawn to the time, I don't know whether it's an appropriate time ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: How far are you from finishing this witness?

MR LOWIES: It's difficult to say, I'd say 10, 15 minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: If we could, maybe we should break at this stage, Mr Lowies?

MR LOWIES: I'd appreciate it Chairman because I have a problem with the witness that I want to consult with but again I'm in your hands.

CHAIRPERSON: No, we are in your hands. If you finish early, if you don't finish, we don't go. Alright but I think it's been a fairly long day. Okay very well, we will adjourn at this stage. You will reconvene at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.

Ms Molete, would you make sure that you are here by 9 o'clock tomorrow morning?

MS M MOLETE: I will be here Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, just before the adjournment, I indicated to you Chairman that tomorrow I have a problem, I'll see if I can come during the course of the day but there will be - Mr Fredrech will be here for me. Thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: Who else will be absent tomorrow?

No one? Very well.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS