DR RAMASHALA
Mr Fatyela, good morning can you hear me?
MR FATYELA
Yes, I can hear you.
DR RAMASHALA
Okay.
MASINDA FATYELA Duly sworn states
DR RAMASHALA
Chairperson to facilitate the testimony of Mr Fatyela is Adv Denzil Potgieter.
ADV POTGIETER
Thank you Dr Ramashala, Mr Fatyela I see - I noticed it’s afternoon, good afternoon to you and welcome here.
MR FATYELA
Good afternoon.
ADV POTGIETER
You are from Richmond, is that correct?
MR FATYELA
Yes, it’s like that.
ADV POTGIETER
Can you just very briefly just tell us who you are, something about yourself before we talk of the incident that you want to tell us about.
MR FATYELA
Thank you, my name is Masinda - my full name Masinda Phifakela, my clang name is Xhati, I live in Richmond in Sabello. I like music and sport and I play rugby - I am not married.
ADV POTGIETER
Well thank you very much for that, what do you do at the moment. Are you employed or what - what do you do?
MR FATYELA
I’m there at home, I’m doing part time jobs there at a local crèche which is controlled by the residents - there is no other work I do.
ADV POTGIETER
The story you want to tell us relates to 1985 at a time when you were still at school. In fact you were then at Ixaya Combined Junior Secondary School in Richmond, is that correct?
MR FATYELA
Yes, it’s like that.
ADV POTGIETER
What standard were you doing there?
MR FATYELA
I was doing Std 6 then.
ADV POTGIETER
And [indistinct] you were then a member of the SRC at the school ?
MR FATYELA
Yes, that’s true, I was a member of the SRC then there at Ixaya.
ADV POTGIETER
And the incident happened around October of that year - of 1985 - is that correct?
MR FATYELA
Yes, it’s true.
ADV POTGIETER
And you were in fact arrested at school by the police and removed from the school premises, is that so?
MR FATYELA
That’s true.
ADV POTGIETER
And can you tell us what happened when you were arrested at - by the police and taken away?
MR FATYELA
Thank you sir, at Sabello school we had a meeting together with parents. We were the SRC, our parents who were there at the location. We had this discussion that was to be in town and these parents were no going be there and this discussion was going to be in town, so we were still discussing where - which day we should go to the white school and talk about certain matters of Ixaya because Ixaya was backward there - there were no facilities and people were not helping.
So whilst we were there parents came because they had been called by the teachers because there were 3 teachers that were not wanted there - 2 of these still teach there in Richmond but one is not teaching. Whilst we were still talking policemen came into our school.
Firstly they wanted to find out what we were busy with as student, then we said no these - this is a problem that was effecting our parents and us only. Then we got an instruction from one of the teachers who was present there at the time - this was a teacher by the name Zongezile Mtona and he said the police were looking for 3 teachers because they were the teachers who were teaching politics in that school.
This does not matter, there at school they asked to get inside, then we answered as the SRC - we said no they were not allowed to come in because we were holding a meeting. And the one who gave that answer is Alfred that I’m going to mention earlier - later on. Then they said they were not only talking to him but even to other students as well. I was angry and I was for it that they should not come in. Then they asked that we should shift this venue for the meeting, then we refused because we did not have transport to get to town.
Then they hired a car belonging to the late Galolo which was a blue Kombi - some of us - of the students got into this Kombi and they were waiting outside - of these students were taken to Stadssaal - City Hall - where you were going to have this meeting. 12 of us could not get transport and some of the members remained behind, so we walked to the place but on our way next to the coloured - in the coloured area next to a shop owned by Mvengo - and next to this shop there was a clinic - we stood just between the clinic and the shop and we saw a blue car - Mazda car stopping there - it was stopped - parked at the clinic.
And next to it was a Special Branch who - policemen who had a shambok with him. He shouted as we were coming, inviting us to come close to him - he was a coloured man - and he was saying it in Afrikaans that we should all come to him and I became doubtful as I came nearer the clinic. I bent down as if I was getting ready to run away because I didn’t know why he was calling us and he was even shaking this shambok. And I even told the others that I was going to run away. Then he could see what my intentions were and he said I’m looking at you even if you were to run away I’m going to shoot at you and he showed me the gun.
Then I decided to dismiss this idea and follow the others - so I followed the others and went to him into the clinic. This Mazda was parked somewhere and then he asked us to stand in a line - you could see they were unfriendly. We stood there in a line, they looked at our faces and one of them took a walkie-talkie whilst - and ask for a van and whilst we were waiting for the van one of us had a sticker reading [indistinct] and this Special Branch took - asked who is this dog and where do you know this dog from and the other one said this is Matthews Sgoniwe and then he asked how is he related to you and this one said he’s my brother and he asked where is he then he said he died, so the van come before they could continue.
Then he directed us into the van - we got into the van hurriedly, they drove us down to the Police Station and at the Police Station they asked us to wait behind the counter - they were there with us. Then two policemen - black policemen, Thabo and Adjutant and others came, they were Ruiters, Blom, quite a group of policemen. Two black policemen went out leaving the white policemen with us and instruction was that we should burn. And he asked who had burnt the clinic and this Special Branch was standing and listening and he said we were responsible for the burning and this persons was saying - was Adjutant and they wanted to ask who was responsible for the burning of the clinic and he called Boetietjie - who was a - he was of a Genini Kobo family and he responded and he said you respond and they asked for Koebo and there was no Koebo amongst us - it was just a slogan that was used in the location to mean that there was problems.
Now they were asking for Koebo and they hit one of us with a fist and they said here are the others sitting here, they were kicking us and they kept on kicking and hitting us. And then he would ask and address Sinqueua as Matthew Sgoniwe and he would stand up and he would ask: Do you know this person? Then he would say: No I don’t know. And he was crying at the time because they were hitting him against the wall at the time. Then he would ask him to sit down and they would call us. I didn’t know where these Special Branch came from, that was me and Windking - and they would ask where we came from and I was not prepared to speak Afrikaans because I didn’t even know it well.
Then I answered back, I said: No sir we come from the "Kafferland". And then he said to me I was a stupid and then he asked the other one where he came from and he said he had come - he was coming from a farm attending school and he didn’t know anything. Then he asked us to sit down, then he would call on the others that he felt they could beat up and they took them into different rooms. And then he said they were going to put these children straight because they don’t listen and I didn’t understand why they were going to beat us up because we didn’t know anything. As we were coming out we left those together with Adjutant and other policemen.
Then Adjutant said to the children they should sing the freedom song that sings about Thambo but these policemen were making a fool and saying it is about Thambo. They would hit - hit them against the wall and they were singing about Thambo, one of them was saying they should be put into a sack. Then there was a black sack and I was put into it and they asked us that we should run whilst in a sack and we couldn’t see - it was even suffocating - and we would hit against mirrors. Then they would direct us which way to run and then you would hit against a mirror, they would say it’s enough and they would even beat you with the batons. They would take you out and then put someone else and let you lie on you stomach. After a while they took us back to the cells, I was wishing that the end of the day should come because they had been hitting us all the way.
Then at the cell we were slightly happy and we chatted to one another. I was there in one corner in the cell and I was sitting there, I just heard a noise of opening of keys and they asked - they said don’t come and sleep here, this is Thabo who was saying it. Then I said: Oh, it’s a beating once more. And I was whispering. They asked for Matinda and Matinda ignored them and he was sleeping. Then they asked for Matinda, then one pointed at Matinda next to the door. I don’t know whether the interpretation - they’re going to interpret the insult but they insulted me about my mother and then they said: Here is Ali-ali who is standing here.
He was drinking Guava Juice and even poring it on my head and he asked me to stand up and follow this policeman and he locked the others there. I went round into a toilet - there was only 3 of us, it was me, Alfred and the 3rd. And Mongweni said to me: Here is Alfred that you think you are of the same edge because you don’t relate well together. I kept quiet - I didn’t have anything to say. He hit me with the fist and I fell down, he - another one kicked me and I fell on the other side until Alfred said: I think we are slow, let’s take this person and make this person drink water from this toilet tub. And then he held me by the waist saying that I was stubborn and they forced me into the tub - toilet tub. And I suffocated and he forced me and I tried - they kicked me and he force me down saying that I was going to stop being stubborn.
They would take me out of the toilet - the others were not aware of all this and they would make me stand in front of the cell where there was dirty water with leaves. I would sometimes think of jumping, then I jumped over and they asked me why I was jumping.
They would take me back and held me with my legs and the other one was holding me at the back. They forced me into this dirty water, they hit me with their fists and one said: Lets forgive him. And that was Thabo saying that. Then they said: Lets take him to show to the other people. And the cell was full of water, they ask me to sit down and they said they were not through with him - they were - with me they were coming back. Adjutant came and his name - Jonk came in and he again beat some others.
At about 4 o’clock they called us and they asked us to get into one office and they said: You are not going to insult Mongweni again, you must leave now. If we were to get you on the way we are going to injure you and beat - we are going back to the City Hall and if we get someone there we’re again going to beat that person. So we went out running followed by the police van and the one who would be at the last would be beaten. When we got to the coloured location, we saw a group of people coming - apparently they were coming to take us. So we went to the location, the people tried to investigate from us whether they had beaten us and we told everything that - when we told them we were beaten by so and so, I pause there.
ADV POTGIETER
Thank you Mr Fatyela, how old were you when you went threw this terrible experience?
MR FATYELA
I was 15 years old at the time and I was at home.
ADV POTGIETER
And for how long have you been in the police custody, how long did this whole incident last from the time that they took you to the police station until you were let loose, how long did it take about?
MR FATYELA
I would say the meeting was to be held at 9 o’clock and at 11 they arrested us. It was not a very long time but the way we were beaten up it indicated that if people had not phoned they were still going to continue to beat us up. I don’t know whether I’ve answered your question.
ADV POTGIETER
Let me ask you was it around - did you say it was around 4 o’clock in the afternoon when you were eventually released?
MR FATYELA
That’s right.
ADV POTGIETER
[indistinct] police custody from about 11 in the morning until about 4 o’clock in the afternoon?
MR FATYELA
Yes.
ADV POTGIETER
[indistinct] busy beating you up and assaulting you and carrying on as you’ve - as you’ve described to us?
MR FATYELA
Yes, from morning to the afternoon they were doing the same thing to us.
ADV POTGIETER
[indistinct] Alfred and you have referred to Thabo and we’ve heard those two names earlier in testimony as well. They’re two police - policemen, is that correct?
MR FATYELA
Yes, they are policemen but one is no longer in Richmond. There’s only - Alfred there.
ADV POTGIETER
Were they amongst the perpetrators - amongst the people that assaulted you?
MR FATYELA
They are the very people - there were 3 of them together with the Special Branch that had been brought in by them.
ADV POTGIETER
[indistinct] the third one, you said there were 3 of them together with a Special Branch - the third one, who was it? It was - one was Alfred, one was Thabo and who was the third person?
MR FATYELA
The third was Adjutant Jonk but he was not there outside when all these things happened but he did all these things right there in the police station.
ADV POTGIETER
[indistinct] the Station Commander the police - he was in charge of the police?
MR FATYELA
Yes, he was in charge and he is the one who started the beating.
ADV POTGIETER
[indistinct] was that person from Richmond or was he from else where?
MR FATYELA
I wouldn’t lie but I don’t know where they came from, all I know is that they were driving in a blue Mazda. Most of the time they were working together with the Beaufort West people.
ADV POTGIETER
Do you - have you or any of the other people that were with you, have you laid any charges against these policemen?
MR FATYELA
No, there was no time for that as Mr Lolwana stated that if you were to do any of that you couldn’t even consult a doctor, you couldn’t go to Adjutant because he was the leader who would get into the location and take who ever he wanted.
ADV POTGIETER
There was no - there was no sense - what you really saying if I understand you correctly, there is no - there was no sense in going back to the same people who assaulted you to lay a charge against that very same people?
MR FATYELA
Yes, it happens that after you have been injured by people like them and they take you bad, Adjutant would tell you that he didn’t have time for that. Then where would you get to because there would be no other place to get to because all these people who are friends together with doctors.
ADV POTGIETER
You seemed to have just been picked up and just beaten up for the entire day for no apparent reason, how did you feel after going through that experience?
MR FATYELA
They did all this from school as I mentioned that they alleged that we had burnt the clinic and they were beating me all the time and in - all they did to me has effected me and I can’t hear properly and if - when you talk to me it takes time for me to answer and I had to go out of school because of being beaten up. And when I got class I can’t hear and I fall asleep.
ADV POTGIETER
[indistinct] you were not charged with anything, you were not charged for having committed any offense, you were just released - you were let loose - you were - they just told you to go home?
MR FATYELA
Yes, there was - I was not cruel but according to them they found us talking and then they just decided to take me because of that. Let me explain this way, most policemen if you were talking to them the policemen wouldn’t like you to point at them where as they would be doing the same to you.
And they would begrudge you that if they arrest you they would do something to you - that is what was happening.
ADV POTGIETER
Just in conclusion it there - is there anything that you would like to ask the Commission to pay attention to, to look into for you?
MR FATYELA
My requests - I have a request - my request is that every time I see him in our location I feel he’s going to do something to me ever if he got to know that I was here before this Commission he’s going to come and ask me. But if he starts pulling me I would have to retaliate. Now I have a request to this Commission: there at home - I’m going to say briefly - at home I have a mother, a sister - who’s not working - there are others who are married, one is a young man who’s working in a school.
My mother is a pensioner and here I’m just sitting at home, unemployed. I did try to get a job but I can’t get one, I went to Postmansburg to get work at a mine but I could not work because I don’t hear. So I would be lacking behind so I had to go back home.
I’m doing this part time job at the crèche and there is just no salary there. We’re just helping the residents, it is just at a time where I just make some drawings then I get that little money for the drawings.
My request is - I am - I had intentions that I would continue as a musician as I’m talented in that field but I can’t sing - I can’t hear properly - I can’t sing, I just sing because there is no work here in Richmond therefor I’m asking that there should be a driver organized for the crèche because I can drive but I don’t have the Drivers License. How - what can I do to get Drivers License because my mother cannot take the little money she has and send me to a Drivers School.
Then after that I will be happy and I would have - bear no grudge for any one.
ADV POTGIETER
You said - can I just come back to what appears to me to be a concern that you’ve raised, who are you revering to that might come and ask you about having been to the Commission here to give evidence?
MR FATYELA
Yes, I - I was just mentioning this that this particular person I’m talking about we asked each other there at home - they would ask what happened and then we would give them information and that particular person would be satisfied.
I’m talking about a person who’s still begrudging me trying to investigate what are my intentions against him because I must say there’s still some begrudging of one another there. I’m now talking about Alfred.
ADV POTGIETER
Is he a policeman?
MR FATYELA
Yes.
ADV POTGIETER
What is his - is Alfred his surname of his first name?
MR FATYELA
Alfred is his first name and his surname is Mongweni - his full name is Alfred Mongweni.
ADV POTGIETER
Is he still a policeman in Richmond?
MR FATYELA
Yes, he is here - he’s still a policeman.
ADV POTGIETER
[indistinct] just very clearly and in public that the Commission would obviously take a very serious few if anyone who comes to us and testifies, tell his or her story is approached and intimidated or acted against because of that very fact that he or she has approached the Commission.
We - as I say - would regard that in a very, very, very serious light and we would obviously act quite swiftly against a person who were to - to consider doing that or were to do that. So I just like to - to take note of that and to have that assurance from us.
MR FATYELA
Thank you.
MS SEROKE
Mr Fatyela when did you [indistinct] your hearing problem. Was it before you were arrested or after you were arrested?
MR FATYELA
This is just recent - in this recent years after I was arrested.
MS SEROKE
Do you think that it’s a result of the beating or is it totally unrelated?
MR FATYELA
What I think is, it was a result of the beating because I was beaten by a boxer, Alfred, and he did not just give me one beating - he beat me several times. I went as far as Std 6.
MS SEROKE
[indistinct] arrested?
MR FATYELA
We’re released and then I went to school to continue with my education but I decided to stop. There was no High School there.
MS SEROKE
But you’re still interested in continuing your education?
MR FATYELA
Yes - no, I think I have a problem though I am interested but I have a problem now.
MS SEROKE
Tell us about your problem or is it personal - private? I’m trying to pursue it your interested in getting some kind of training so that at leased you can improve your chances of getting a job. Is the problem very private, you don’t want to reveal it here?
MR FATYELA
If I were to - it is a secret if I were to talk to you in camera I would tell you about it.
MS SEROKE
And you say Alfred is still in your community?
MR FATYELA
Yes, he’s still there.
MS SEROKE
Have you [indistinct]
MR FATYELA
We had a club in the past years which was called the Masakani Boxing Club and he was the coach together with someone from DA. Then when this boxing cart dissolved I never saw him nor talked to him. I don’t even see him, I think he lives in town, there is just a different place where he lives because he left the location.
MS SEROKE
What makes you think that he might come after you, after finding out that you’ve testified to the Commission?
MR FATYELA
There - I don’t think that he could do anything, but that was just a question I had - it’s only that I spoke about it.
MS SEROKE
You would like to meat with Alfred and talk about this, would you?
MR FATYELA
This is easy - it would be easy for us to meet but it would take time because they’re still doing many things there in the location. Even these weeks it would be very difficult for us to come together and talk.
MS SEROKE
Are there any tensions in the township because of the presence of these people who were harassing you and everybody else?
MR FATYELA
What do you mean - you mean these ...[intervention]
MS SEROKE
[indistinct] arrest people and - people like Alfred.
MR FATYELA
No there’s no conflict amongst these incidence. We’re just staying the usual way because it used to be politics that caused this conflict. Where you would bring out the truth and they would - didn’t accept it and then they would decide to destroy you and not to listen to you.
MS SEROKE
Richard - some people who had testified before you, like Ms Nonight they made mention of some conflict that makes you unhappy where you live. They were saying the policemen are responsible for it - was Alfred amongst those policemen who caused this conflict?
MR FATYELA
I would say when they went into this location first, Alfred was amongst them - he was driving in one of the vans. He was with Captain and from the Police Station and other policemen.
MS SEROKE
Now because this incident is recent, now is it the reason why you don’t have hope that there is no difference from what it used to be. Could you please repeat your answer. Now because of this conflict which was mentioned by people earlier on which has led to that shooting of this child. You feel that this is the cause why you don’t have hope that Alfred and others may have changed from they’re intentions that they had long ago.
MR FATYELA
I would say it would be very difficult to meat them and be united once more because they come to our locations, small as it is, and once they see you or they see a drunk person they arrest that person and then how would you be charting with such people. If they see you walking up and about they make a display of people.
MS SEROKE
Is Jonk still there?
MR FATYELA
No.
MS SEROKE
You made mention of a clinic that was burnt, why was it burnt?
MR FATYELA
I really don’t know who burnt it, I don’t even know the reason why it was burnt. It was only the door that was slightly burnt, it’s not the whole building that was burnt.
MS SEROKE
You mentioned many policemen, Alfred, Thabo and Ruiters and Blom and one female witness said that in addition to this policemen who were used, there used to be some reserves who came from the farms. Have you ever seen such reserves during these incidents that you had, that is that time?
MR FATYELA
Yes, that is the - true, I could give this as an example: when my father died on - on - in the location there were De Vries, who is the owner of Oasis - he was one of the reserves - and one lawyer from our residential area and many others who were from the farms. These people who had just been taken to come and help in our - in the beating of us. And those were supposed to be doing the main job, were hiding behind these people.
MS SEROKE
And these reserves were beating?
MR FATYELA
Yes, they were beating us.
MS SEROKE
Thank you.
MS BURTON
Mr Fatyela you have given us a picture of a very hard time in the middle 1980’s and we see that there’s still a great deal of conflict and suffering in our area. Thank you for helping to understand some of that. You have made a very modest request and I hope that it will be possible for you to acquire a skill and find employment. Thank you very much for coming today.
MR FATYELA
I also thank you.
