COMMISSIONER: Mr Molehe, you are in one way making abit of history today, because you are the first witness ever to appear beforethe Commission in the Free State. Some of your colleagues and friends have appearedin Durban, but you are the first in the Free State, and we welcome you mostwarmly. It's not easy to be first, and you're probably feeling a little bitnervous, but I hope that you can relax and realise that the Commission, appointedby the President, is here on behalf of the nation, and cares about you and yourown pain. We identify with you. You have come to tell us about the death ofyour son, which is a very, very hard thing to do and a very heavy burden tocarry. Before you do that I must ask you to take the oath, and I'd be gratefulif you would please stand now.
MR MOLEHE: (Sworn, States)
CHAIRMAN: Mr Molehe, we always ask one of our Commissionersor Committee Members to be of assistance to witnesses and survivors, and inthis instance my colleague, Mrs Virginia Gcabashe, is going to lead you andto assist you in any way, but she knows, and I know, and we all know, that it'syour story and it belongs to you. I am going to ask her to take over now. Thankyou.
MRS GCABASHE: Mrs Molehe, we greet you. I hope thateven if you've come to relate a very painful story you are prepared to tellus all that you know about losing your son. We sympathise with you in your loss.In short I will request you to try and explain and give us a background as towhat happened to your son, that is the circumstances surrounding his disappearance.We would also like to know about your family background in brief. --- My name is Mr Molehe. My son went away in 1980. It wasafter the burial of Makotho in Pahameng. The police arrived at my place at 1o'clock. They were driving in eight vehicles and four dogs. They knocked andI opened the door. On the table there were peanuts, and they accused me of sellingdagga. They opened everything on the table and they discovered it was peanutsand they took it. The next day two policemen arrived to fetch me. They wantedme to go to the Special Branch, and they told me that, "Your son is in Lesotho.He ran away. We are now giving you this letter so that you go and fetch him."They gave me a letter and I was given a special passport. I left with my wife.We went to Lesotho. And then we found our son in Europa, Lesotho, and he saidto me, "I will not come back because the police are looking for me." The manwho was on the gate said to me, "Your son is old enough." He was over 18 andhe decided to leave the country. And I came back home, I informed the policethat he is now in Tanzania. Towards the elections I joined the ANC and I gota card. Mr Motsabe came to me and he said to me, "Your son is dead, but we don'tknow where, and you don't have to expect anything from the ANC." That was thefirst point. And the second point, I remember Mpanjani, who was one of the peoplewho tortured my son. The white man I don't remember any more. Mpanjani usedto come and fetch my son. My wife was at home and I was at work. Mpanjani wouldcome to my house via our next-door neighbours. My son realised that it was Mpanjaniand he jumped over the fence and he ran. When Mpanjani got into the house myson was not there. I was deeply hurt, and I even got a heart attack. I willnever forget Mr Motsabe's words. He was together with Mr Maleke from Johannesburg whenhe told me that my son was dead, and he said I shouldn't expect anything fromthe ANC, there will not be help of any sort. And I said to him, "I wasn't expectingany help. I just wanted to know where my son died, because I do not even knowhis grave." Since my son left I have never cut my hair, because we believe whendeath has befell your family you have to cut your hair, but I cannot becauseI don't know whether my son lives or has he died. I really don't know.
Thank you, Mr Molehe, from hearing of your testimony. I wouldlike to ask you just a few questions so that you can elaborate on your story.You said you got a letter that said you must go to Lesotho. Who gave you thetransport or the fare? When you got to Lesotho you met with a Commissioner ofRefugees. Who arranged this meeting? --- When we got to Europa they showed us- when I got there I came across a person who was holding a gun. He is the onewho told me that my child is at Monthaka.
You said an SB arrived at your home. Do you know his whereabouts,this Mpanjani? --- I normally meet Mpanjani in town. I think he is still around.
You said that the ANC told you that your son had died. Didyou get any death certificate? What means have you done to get a death certificate?--- Mr Motsabe told me that my son died and they don't know where he died, andI just lost hope, I didn't know where to go. Because I was told that his deathcertificate will be sent to the Premier and the Premier will pass it over tome, but I didn't even know the Premier then, and I lost hope and I didn't do anything. While I was listening to the newson the radio I heard that the Commission is going to be in Bloemfontein, andI went to the St John Presbyterian Church to submit my statement.
Have you ever had any visit from the ANC after that? --- No,not after that.
Mr Molehe, we are listening to your story. Is there anythingelse that you would like to know, besides the fact that your son is dead andwhere is he buried? Do you think there is any assistance that the Commissionmight give you, even though that there isn't much that we can do? --- No, Ihave a request. I don't know what to ask from the Commission. The Commissionwill see what kind of help will they offer.
Thank you very much. I want to say once more we sympathisewith you, we really sympathise with you.
DR MGOJO: Mr Molehe, according to your statement hereit would appear that you son, when he was in standard eight had a type of experience.Is that true, that he was still in standard eight? --- Yes, that's true.
Thank you. And then he left to join the ANC in exile, is thattrue? --- That's true.
And it would appear that later you too joined the ANC. Is thattrue? --- Yes, that's true.
Before this happened you were involved with the Security Police.Was there anybody in your family who was an activist? --- No, nobody.
So were you surprised that you and your family had to get thistype of treatment from the Security Police? --- Yes, I was really surprised. Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Molehe, just one small question forclarification. You mentioned that two people from the ANC visited you to informyou of your son's death. One was Mr Motsabe. I didn't catch the other namevery clearly. If you wouldn't mind just telling it to us again please. --- Theysaid it was Mr Maleke from Johannesburg.
Mr Molehe, we thank you very much for coming here. We alsothank your effort of having come to give your testimony. As I have already pointedout when I was praying, we ask the Lord to comfort you. May He be the one whogives His holy spirit to strengthen you. We shall try by all means to act accordingto your wishes so that we may try to solve your problems, so that we may seeor find out as to where your son has been buried, as to what has happened where.We thank you very much.
COMMISSIONER: Mrs Mhlabende, can you hear my voice inyour earphones?
MRS MHLABENDE: Yes, I can hear you.
COMMISSIONER: I want to say good morning to you, andto welcome you very warmly to the Commission. We are very glad that you tookthe trouble to come to the Commission and to tell your story to our membersof our staff, but now to tell it to the Commission itself and to the peoplewho are in this City hall, and to many more people outside. It's very importantthat people tell stories of what happened to them, whatever that may be, andwe are very grateful to you for coming. You are going to tell us about the timewhen you were in great distress when your own was burnt down, but before youdo that I would like you to please stand for the oath.
THIWE MAGADALENA MHLABENDE: (Sworn, States)
COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much. Please be seated.Dr Mgojo is going to take over from me and lead you as you tell your story.Thank you.
DR MGOJO: Mrs Mhlabende, I want you to relax and tellall what is causing your pain as far as the burning of your house is concerned.Don't fear anything, just say everything. But before I do that can you justtell us about your family, the background about your family? --- Can you pleasetell me - say what to do.
Do you speak Zulu? Okay. If you speak Xhosa you will understandme, because Zulu and Xhosa are close. You will help Mrs - please tell us allthat you went through. Tell us the pain you felt when your house was burnt down,but before you tell us that could you just give us a brief background of your family. Who are you, wheredo you come from, etcetera? This is a very painful experience that you wentthrough, having your house burnt down. Especially if you are a black personit takes a long time for you to rebuild that house . --- You have taken quitea long time to build that house, and at the end of the day you have it burntdown. We sympathise with you very much. I request you to tell us who you are,where you are coming from, etcetera. --- My name is Thiwe. I am from Butsabelo.My name is Thiwe. I am from Butsabelo. I was staying at Butsabelo. That wassection K in Butsabelo. They burnt my house in 1993. They started throwingstones at my house. That was in November. It was on a Friday. On a Saturdaywe slept in the house, and the Sunday we slept in the house, and then on Mondaythey threw the petrol bomb. Only the bedroom got burnt. We were able to runaway, but we came back to try and extinguish the flames. All that was in thebedroom got burnt. Thereafter we were sleeping outside because we didn't haveany place to sleep, and we were keeping a vigil as to what was happening. Aweek thereafter my husband, as well as my brother, were staying outside so thatI could get inside and sleep because I was looking after my father-in-law. Theyburnt my place for the third time. That is they heard one of the perpetrators- there are trees in my hard, so he was hiding in the trees. So when he gotin there they don't know how he came in there, they just heard noise in thebushes. When they looked they caught a young man. When they asked him what hewanted he ran away. They chased him. At that time I heard there was some noisebecause I was inside the house. Then I went outside to investigate. Theyasked him who he was. He ran away and they actually chased him. When they gothim they assaulted him. We later called on the police that night. When we calledthe police the police came, but I said they mustn't come into my house becauseI am afraid the Comrades would burn us later and they would also kill my childrenbecause they were burning the houses. The policemen came. They took us to thepolice station. They took this would-be perpetrator to the police station. Wealso went there. My husband opened a docket, but that docket didn't really materialisebecause he did not appear in court. The docket got lost, and my husband wassentenced because they said he had assaulted the would-be perpetrator. Theywere sentenced to two years inside - outside, and one year. They spent six monthsin prison, and nobody was working at that time. They were the breadwinners.I sold my house because I couldn't make ends meet. My husband got out in Julyof that same year. (Pause)
Have you finished giving your testimony? --- I feel as if Iam suffocating. I am getting dizzy.
Bring her forth. (Pause) --- It was like that. That's how itwent on. It was very difficult for me to make ends meet. It is still like thateven now when my husband had come out of the prison. I believe I have finished.
Thank you. I'll ask you just a few questions. Please tell meif you can't hear any of the questions. In your statement you said the peoplewho burned your house were Comrades. Who are the Comrades? --- It was Mahloand Mainline, as well as Maputhi. No, I am not asking the names, but I am just asking what arethe Comrades? Is it - it's ANC? --- Yes, it's ANC.
How old are these people who burned your house down? --- Theother one was quite old. The other ones were just juveniles. But they were quitegrown up, but I don't know how to explain their ages. I just know their ages,but ... (incomplete)
When you think that amongst all those houses in Butsabelo whydid they choose your house? What do you think was the reason? Did you have analtercation with the Comrades? --- My husband never collaborated with them whenthey wanted to arrange or stage stay-aways. We were working and we never wantedto take any part in stay-aways because our bosses were promising us that theywould chuck us away if we don't turn up for work. So we never used to go totheir meetings. Maybe they took offence because we didn't.
In your statement you said your husband was arrested becausehe wanted to revenge. How did he want to revenge? --- He was arrested when hewas trying to revenge. He was arrested when they were trying to burn our housefor the third time. The first time they threw stones, the second time on a Mondaythey burnt the house down. A week thereafter I believe - I should think it wason the third week - they had come to try and burn the house down again, butthey couldn't really do it, so my husband got arrested at that stage.
We don't seem to be seeing eye to eye. In your statement MsMagdalena it says your husband wanted to revenge. Now what I am trying to say,what was he using when he wanted to revenge that caused him to be arrested? ---He never wanted to revenge. I think the person who wrote the statement did notunderstand me because I speak Xhosa, and the person who was writing the statementspoke Zulu. I'll put it in that way that we didn't actually understand eachother.
Thank you.
DR BORAIN: Mrs Mhlabende, just to try and clarify thatlast part, I think you mentioned that on the third occasion there was someonehiding in the bushes or in the trees, and who obviously was wanting to attackyour house again, and I think your husband chased him. Did you say that he assaultedhim, and for that reason he was arrested. --- (Inaudible)
(Inaudible) ... for assault of someone who was trying to attackyour house, and was sentenced for two years, and served for six months in prison.Did the police ever catch the people who tried to burn your house down, or assaultyou or stone your house? --- (Inaudible) ... arrested them.
They did arrest them? They didn't arrest them? --- Yes.
Your husband was defending the house and he is arrested, andthe people who tried to burn your house go free. Is that what you're tellingus? --- Yes, he was arrested for that.
One last question. You mentioned that there was a docket thatyour husband must have laid charges against the people who burnt your house.That docket was lost. Who lost the docket? --- I don't know who lost this docket because this docket was not available, because whenthis guy went there and then he told the police that he was assaulted by myhusband. My husband stabbed him, and this guy said my husband was trying totake his watch, but my husband's docket wasn't there.
Thank you very much.
MRS GCABASHE: I've got a question ... (incomplete -end of Side A, Tape 1) ... we all sympathise with you. We want to encourageyou as well as in your pain. We sympathise with you and your family. We shallwait and see whether we can actually help your or assist you in your wishes,but you should know that the Commission doesn't have the authority or the powers.We will have to tell the President, come up with suggestions or recommendationsas to how to help you, then at the end of the day he is the one who passes thisto the Parliament, and it's the Parliament that makes the final decision asto what assistance we should give you if you are going to get any assistance.
We thank you for being present. We ask the Lord to anoint yourwounds and also help you in your difficulties. Thank you.
COMMISSIONER: Mrs Mohali, just let me make sure youcan hear me, and that I can hear you. Can you hear me through the earphones?
MRS MOHALI: Yes, I can hear you, Sir.
COMMISSIONER: All right. To help me, and to help theCommission, and also to help the people who are here to hear your story, I wouldask you to try and speak as loudly as possible, because everybody wants to hearyou. May I, on behalf of the Commission, welcome you very warmly to this hearing.You have not one, but two very distressing and sat stories to tell, which involvedyour two sons, Bokile and Christopher, and we're going to listen to that ina moment. It's a very heavy story, but you are amongst friends, and we willhear you and we will sympathise with you as you tell that story. Before youstart will you please stand so that you can take the oath?
GLADYS MOSIDI MOHALI: (Sworn, States)
MR BORAIN: Thank you very much. Please be seated. Mrs Mohali,you have been sitting and waiting for your turn, and it can make one very nervous,but this is not a dentist's room, not even a doctor's room, it's a Commissionappointed by the President to hear your story, and I hope that you will be veryrelaxed as you tell it, as much as it is possible to be under the circumstances.I am going to try and help you to tell that story, and I may well have somequestions for you, but first tell us your story, tell us who you are, whereyou come from something of your background, and then tell us first about thedeath of your son, Bokile, and when we have finished there you can tell us aboutthe torture of your son, Christopher. We would like to hear from you now. --- My nameis Mrs Mohali. I come from Rockland. When I start relating this story of Bokkie.Bokkie's my son. He was at high school. At all times when he was still at schoolthe police used to come and trouble him at home. They used to arrest him andsay he's an ANC member. And at some stage it happened that he was arrested whenhe was with Christopher. They arrested him and they kept him in a flat, andat times he would come back and at times I would run after him. Thereafter in1978 Bokkie skipped the country. I didn't even know that he had skipped thecountry. I looked for him. I even went to the charge office to go and tell themthat my son has disappeared and I don't know where he's gone to. It was on aFriday. The following Monday a policeman came to my house. The policeman wasfrom the Special Branch. Then he came to tell us that my son had skipped thecountry. As we were still sitting, not knowing where our children are, theytold us that our children had gone to West Germany, only to find that they werenot in West Germany, they were in Lesotho. From there they came and told usthat we must go to Lesotho to look for our children in Lesotho, and we mustcome back with them. They made special passports for us and we went to Lesotho.When we got to Lesotho we found them in a camp. There was nobody at that camp.When we told them that the police had told us to bring them with they told usthat they cannot come back to South Africa because the policemen were assaultingthem and were troubling them, so they were not prepared to come back home. Aswe were still there he attended the school at Lesotho. When he finished hismatric they said he had got a scholarship. I didn't even know where this scholarship was.He was still in Lesotho. We stayed without them, and on a certain day we wentto Lesotho once more. He phoned, he said the Maseru Cafe. He said I will getthem at the Maseru Cafe. Then he told me that he was still in Tanzania. Thenhe came back home. Thereafter the police since 1978 never stopped troublingus. They would wake up in the morning, kick the doors. When they get into thehouse they would cause confusion, break everything. We didn't know what theywanted. They didn't even want to see Mr Mohali. That is when I opened up a case,because I realised that they were going to kill my husband so I took it uponmyself to continue with the case. From there in 1986 there came another ladyby the name of Ma Stilo, Ginelwe Stilo. When she got me at home she said tome, "Bokkie has died." I was surprised as to where was Bokkie when he died.She told me that he died in Thaba Nchu. I asked her what had killed him. Shetold me it's the Thaba Nchu police who killed my son. I went to Thaba Nchu.When I got to Thaba Nchu I asked at the charge office in Thaba Nchu as to whowas killed. They told me it was a terrorist from Lesotho. They further toldme that I should come on the following Monday. I asked them where my son haddied. They told me about the Thaba Nchu location by the name of Ramahale. Iwent to Ramahale. I asked this lady as to where does the person come from whodied. She told me that it was Steve's friend. Steve Bonganchu is my friend.Then they said he dumped - he left them and he said he was going to pick themup later on. Thereafter I told her that according to my knowledge that was mychild, and as I am speaking you must look at this person because he looks exactly like me, he is my son.On a Monday I went back to the Thaba Nchu charge office to ask them about myson. I met with Captain Buckall. Captain Buckall is an Afrikaner and he shoutedat me. He kept on telling me that I shouldn't come and ask him about murderers,I must go out of the office. I was very surprised as to what he meant. I didn'tknow what to do. I went out of the charge office. As I was going out of thecharge office I went to Mr Motsabe. When I got to Mr Motsabe I told him thatMr Buckall had chased me out and told me that that wasn't my son, it was a terroristfrom wherever he came from. I went back to where he had died. When I got towhere he had died they told me that he was in the house and somebody came andtold him that he must stay right there. The people who must come and fetch him,that is the ANC people, will be there. Then he remained there. As he was stillsleeping, according to the way the son of that house was telling us, he saida man arrived in a car and told him to just stay there because they were comingto fetch him. Only a few moments thereafter two cars came. Then he said, "Hereare the two cars that have come to fetch you." When he got there it wasn't twocars, it was many cars that had come. When he tried to escape through the backdoor there were more cars with white people inside, and most of them were Ladybrandcars having Ladybrand registrations, as well as Bophutatswana cars. At thattime when he tried to escape they shot him, and he rolled and rolled on thefloor until such time that he got into the toilet of the back opposite house.When he got in there they came and finished him off right inside the toilet.They shot him, but he managed to get out still. As he was going out they threw himwith a bomb, and the bomb exploded. When this bomb exploded he was in tatters.That is from the chest, the arms. He looked very terrible. At that time I wentback to the police when I heard this message. I told the police that may theyplease give me the corpse so that I can go bury my own son. They never everwanted to talk to me, they didn't even want to give me the corpse. They didn'teven know that I knew about the corpse, I had already heard as to what had happened.They refused to give me my son's corpse. I went there several times seeing myson's corpse. I couldn't get my corpse. Mr Motsabe said to me he is goingto get me an attorney. He went to Mr Kittens. Mr Kittens gave me his partner,who was Mr Holtshausen. Mr Holtshausen took me or went with me. We went to ThabaNchu. When we got there I actually showed him that, "There's the man who killedmy son. It is Mr Buckall." When we got to Mr Buckall Mr Holtshausen toldhim who he is and where he comes from. He actually chased him out of the officeand said he didn't want to speak to him. He chased him out of the office. Thereafterwe went with Mr Holtshausen to where my son had died to go and fetch some statements.We wrote the statements then came back. As we were coming back towards home- I stayed, I believe two days or three days - my cousin came to me and saidto me we should go right away. She has had news that the corpse - my cousinis Doreen Sibuko. When Doreen got to me she told me that they say the corpseis in Moroka Hospital. We went to Moroka Hospital to get the corpse. When wegot to the hospital we met with the sister in charge. We asked her as to whether they did have an unknown corpse. She said yes,they do. We asked her as to where he is the one who was killed by the police.She said yes. She said we should wait, she is going to speak to the superintendent,because the superintendent had given orders that if anyone comes to look forthe corpse they should wait until they talk to him. For about an hour waitingfor this sister. It was quite a long time, it could have been more than an hour.When the sister came back she was very hurt. Apparently she was not supposedto have told us that the corpse was there, and probably she was going to loseher job. She told us to go to the superintendent's office because the superintendentwanted to see us. We went out to the superintendent. When we got to him thesuperintendent told us that he is very sorry about us and the corpse, becausethat corpse wasn't my son's it was a YB's corpse. They were controlling it andthey had actually taken it. I told him that the sister had told us that therewas a corpse. He actually denied and said no, they had taken the corpse. Wewere very surprised as to the contrasts. We went out crying, very confused,not knowing what to do. I told Mr Motsabe. Mr Motsabe sent us to Red Cross sothat we may find the corpse. When Mr Motsabe came the Red Cross peoplethey took the case. They took it to the Thaba Nchu Police Station. They wentthere personally. They were told to go to the Bophutatswana headquarters. Whenthey were supposed to go there it was when they were told to go out to SouthAfrica because they didn't know what had happened to the corpse. I stayed. Lastyear we were told to wipe or take people who had died out of the house permits.Now I had a house where he had grown up. When I went to look for the death certificatefrom the ANC offices I was supposed to take it to the court. The Court saidthey don't want that death certificate, they want a real death certificate asto where the child had died. When I came from the ANC offices I went to ThabaNchu. From Thaba Nchu I told them that I am seeking my son's death certificate,and at Thaba Nchu they gave me a death certificate of unknown corpse. They didn'twrite anything. They even gave me a grave number as to where the child had beenburied. I brought it with. When I got to court the Court couldn't accept. Theyfurther sent me back and said they must make a proper death certificate, nota death certificate that have got a lot of unknown, unknown information. Thereafteran MK member, Blackie, had helped me to obtain the first death certificate thathad unknowns. Now, when I couldn't get it I kept on going back to Mr Motsabe.When I went to Mr Motsabe I told him that they had given me the death certificateat Thaba Nchu by Captain Mokubi. They had given me that death certificate aswell as the grave number. He said to me he will look for Colonel Erasmus, whowould go there, and I told him that I had told Captain Mokubi as to why he gaveme such a certificate because my son had a file there, and I had seen the file.When we got to Colonel Erasmus he took us to Thaba Nchu, where I wanted to showhim my son's file. And they refused to show me the photos as well as the post-mortemreport. The colonel went up and down with me. We even went to the grave. Whenwe got to the grave that grave had its own owner. It was written Maria Selamoni.It wasn't my son's grave. The colonel went back to look for the file but he couldn't get hold of the file. He left me and he told me thatBuckall is in Bethuli, so we must go and look for him in Bethuli. When we gotto Bethuli Buckall was shown where the file is and he came out with the file.Mr Motsabe said we should just leave the file as is, they'll see aboutit at the Truth Commission. I never knew where my son's grave was. I don't knowwhere his death certificate is. I don't have it in my possession.
I wonder if we could just pause there before we hear aboutChristopher. Just a few questions. You have told a very terrifying story, anda very sad one, but you have been very, very brave. (Pause) Are you okay? Justtake your time. (Pause) Can we continue now? --- Yes, we can continue.
Thank you. Your son, Bokile, how old was he when he went toLesotho in 1978? --- He was born in 1958.
So he was 20 years old. He was a young man. Was he very interestedin politics as a young man? --- Yes, he was very interested in politics.
Okay. And you went to see him in Lesotho. --- Yes, I went tolook for him in Lesotho and I found him there.
Did he go with his brother or did he go on his own? --- Hewas together with other boys who were schooling together with him. They leftin a group.
And whilst he was in Lesotho he went to school and he got hismatric, is that right? --- Yes, that's correct. He went to school and he passedhis matric. And I even asked him, "Who is paying for your school fees?" andhe said they are being subsidised by the interior.
Fine. And did you - were you in contact with him from time to time, either by telephone or letter or friends,in any way? --- I personally went to Lesotho to visit him.
Thank you. Now, in 1986 is that when he came back to the country?--- When he came back in 1986 he wanted to see his brother in Lesotho, becausehe was now an MK member.
Which brother is that? --- Christopher.
Thank you. Now, when your son Bokile - Bokkie, I think youcall him - when he came back to South Africa was he working underground or washe - what was he doing? Was he in touch with you? --- He came to Lesotho asan MK member, and then he wanted to see his younger brother. When he was supposedto go back the Lesotho Government was overthrown by Leganya(?) and they couldn'tget into any international plane, so he had to come to South Africa so thathe can go back.
I see. And you got a message that your son, Bokkie, had beenkilled, and that started a very, very, very long journey from police stationto police station, from mortuary, Red Cross, hospital, houses, townships, alldesperately trying to find out what had happened. Is that right? --- Yes, that'scorrect, because after receiving the news that he had died I went to the policestations and they didn't allow me to see him. I even went to Lesotho to findout whether had he been to Lesotho, and they said yes, he had been to Lesotho,but he is now back. And I said to them, "No, he is not back, he is now dead."They said, "No, we don't believe you."
And to this day you don't know where Bokkie was buried, buttell me a little bit more about the person who told you how he was killed by the Security Police. Who wasthat who told you that when you went to the house? --- This house I got whenI asked another policeman as to where my son had been killed. This policemantold me it's Haramakari(?), and I must look for Mrs Matheho. I went there, Ilooked for the place until I got the place, and I got Mrs Theko. That is wherethey told me what had actually happened. That is Mrs Theko as well as her son.They told me how Bokkie had died, how come the police killed him. And when thepolice went there they told me Bokkie, my son, had a bag, a travelling bag.That bag contained ammunition as well as bullets. And when I saw this file thisfile was with Mr Motsabe. He is the one who showed me.
(Inaudible) ... at all? --- No, I never saw the handbag, Ijust saw it in a photo.
(Inaudible) ... the Moroka Hospital because you heard thatyour son's body was there. Can you remember the name of the superintendent?--- Yes, I still remember, but Christopher, my son, can tell the name. I haveforgotten the name.
(Inaudible) ... that later. Thank you very much. Now, who isColonel Erasmus? --- Colonel Erasmus is the person that Mr Motsabe got. OnlyMr Motsabe knows who Colonel Erasmus is.
(Inaudible) ... to help you to find the file, and at last atBethuli you saw the file, did you, on your son? --- Yes ... (inaudible - endof Side B, Tape 1) ... so that Buckall may point where he put the file.
And did you get to see the file? --- Yes, I did see the file.It was the second time I was seeing the file. I saw it when they were refusing to give it to me. Theyjust showed it to me when I was at the Thaba Nchu charge office. This file hadmy son's photos, as well as how the bomb had actually ripped his body apart,but I couldn't see the face. At some of the photos he was sleeping on his tummy.I couldn't see his face, I could only see his back. His body was destroyed savagely.
(Inaudible) ... more questions. You mentioned that there wasa post-mortem and there was also an inquest, but was that also in the file,so you haven't got copies of the findings of the post-mortem? --- (Inaudible)... that file. There was this bag which they say had ammunition. There was alsowhere he fell, also where the bomb had exploded. It's just two or three photosinside that file that I saw.
(Inaudible) ... very much. You've given us quite a lot of clues,and the Commission is obviously going to try and contact the various policestations that you've mentioned to see if we can try and find out exactly whathappened, and very especially to try and find out where your son was buried,because I know that's very, very important for you and your family. But nowjust before - and you've been very brave, and I don't want to prolong this,but you did want to tell us, I think, about your second son, Christopher, whowas detained, and you said he was tortured. Could you tell us quite brieflywhat happened there. --- After Bokkie had gone they went after Christopher,my younger son. At each and every time they were just on Christopher's neck.They were trying to torture him because now his elder brother wasn't there.In 1980, when I realised that my child can't go to school properly any more, I went to Lesotho to try and seek a schoolfor him to attend. He attended the school, and they took him back to JC untilhe went to senior matric. He passed his matric in Cambridge. When he finishedhis matric in Cambridge he had already got a scholarship. They had given hima scholarship that they would give him a bursary because he had got distinctionsin all his courses. When the schools were closed Christopher came back home.When he came back home it was in 1984 now. When he came back home the schoolswere closed. We went to work, that is my husband and I. We left Christopherasleep. When Christopher was still asleep I got a call when I was at work. Theytold me that Christopher had been handcuffed by the police. They also put aBalaclava on his eyes. I didn't know what was happening. I went to tell my bossas to what was happening at home. My boss gave me money and she said I musthurry up and see what was happening. I never went straight home. Just as I wasfrom work I went to Fountain. When I got to Fountain I asked to speak to CaptainPrinsloo. They told me that Captain Prinsloo wasn't present at that moment.Then I asked them as to whether there wasn't any male who was arrested. Thepolicemen told me that there wasn't any person of that description. As I wasstill talking, standing there, they were taking him from the back. He heardmy voice and they took him out, they took him to the cars. He didn't see wherehe was going because they had put a Balaclava over his eyes. As I was standingthere once policeman who was at the door told me that I must go to Fuchswareto look for my son. They told me that that is where they always keep our children.I went home to my husband to tell him what had happened. He left his job at thattime. We went up and down trying to look for my son. We just couldn't get himanywhere. Others told us that he went to Oosvlei(?). We looked for him for aboutthree days in Oosvlei, but we couldn't get him. From there Christopher - thatwas after three days now. I got a trunk call from Lesotho from our family. Itsaid, Ma Mohali, please hurry and come and see your son. I hurried andI went to Lesotho. When I got there ... (incomplete)
INTERPRETER: The interpreting service shall resume assoon as the witness is ready. (Pause) --- When I got there Christopher was grievouslyassaulted. He said he was taken by Captain Prinsloo, as well as another policemanby the name of Marapo. He said they had been kicking and assaulting him. Theywere saying he must speak the truth because he was an ANC member because hewas attending school in Lesotho. He asked them - they said he must work forthem when he gets to Lesotho. He must look for the ANC members and inform them.He said he doesn't stay in Maseru, he is outside Maseru. He doesn't even knowwhere the ANC members are, he doesn't know anything about the ANC. They continuedassaulting him until he bled through his mouth, as well as his ears. Where thereare holes blood was spilling out. He said they told him to wash the pyjamasthat he was wearing because he had bled on them. He couldn't wash the pyjamasbecause he was swollen all over the place. Then they threw him outside the bordersof Ficksburg. As he was there he didn't know where to go. He was given an emergencypassport which says, "I am sick," so he was taken to Quintu Hospital in Maseru. So they made a passportthat he could go and see his mother, but I was looking for him. Because Christopherdidn't know where he was going he remembered the phone numbers of one of themembers of the family, that is the Maheta family. He phoned the Maheta familyat Apatamayi(?), where they took him to a doctor. They enlisted the help ofa doctor to come and - when I got there I made this passport in Takastad(?).I showed it to Captain Prinsloo. I said to him, "Look, I am still looking formy son. You are keeping him here. Where does this passport come from?" Theytold me that my son was an ANC member. I told them that my son was a studentand he wasn't an ANC member, and he wasn't going to tell me what was happening.He had already assaulted my child. I even said to him my child had died. Thenhe was - he took out my son's watch that he had taken earlier on and gave itto me. Then I told him my son was alive. And I told him that the doctor whohad examined him had told me that if I had the means I could open up a case,but now I am afraid. I am afraid of the forces that be. Then I left the caseas it was. One day Prinsloo sent me to my son. They said they wanted to seehim because I was asking to take my son back. When we got to the border - Iwas with Captain Prinsloo when we got to the border. They asked my son as towhether he still agrees with what they told him earlier on. They said they wantedhim to work for them. He totally refused. He said that he won't work for thembecause they were killers as they had done to him. He pointed out that assaultedhim and he will not do it to other people, or help them do it to other people.Then Prinsloo said to me, "You are going back to Lesotho. You are never ever
are never ever going to come back to Bloemfontein." So, since1984 my son has never been coming to Bloemfontein. He didn't have a passport,he was staying in Lesotho until when the President, Mr Mandela, came back. It'sonly then that he requested that he be made a passport to come back home. That'sonly then that he came back.
Thank you very much. I will not keep you very long. --- Oh,I'm sorry, there's something that I left out. My husband wasn't working becausethey were always troubling him. I took the case over because I realised thatthey were going to kill my husband. We were in such difficult times. Even nowmy husband isn't working. We are still pulling very hard because of the Afrikanerswho were always troubling us. He got work at the location at Mr Makofane's place.Mafisa and Mpanjani used to go there and go and insult him where he was working.They used to violate him. Mafisa also used to harass me at work. He wanted to- he kept on fetching me from work to ask me some questions. We pulled so veryhard as from 1978 until 1991. We didn't sleep at nights. We were being pointedwith guns. They used to refer to us as dangerous people of the ANC. They wouldknock at night, kick the doors. Some would even sleep outside. The neighbourswere keeping an eye because they were scared that they would throw a bomb ordo something to us. I don't know what was happening.
Tell me, your son, Christopher, where is now and what is hedoing? --- He is working for the ANC.
Whereabouts? --- He's in Sanlam Plaza.
(Inaudible) ... Bloemfontein? --- Bloemfontein. A final point. You mentioned that your daughter was
very disturbed by all the - the death of her brother, and thetorture and the harassment and so many other things. Has she been into hospital,or under a doctor or a psychologist? --- Yes, this child went to the doctors,that is physicians. The physicians referred her to Orange Hospital, but shenever came all right. My brother took her to Johannesburg at a mental hospital.That is where she became better. I had already spent a lot of money trying toget her to back to normal, but it didn't help.
Is she staying with you now? --- No, she doesn't stay withme. She got married in Gauteng.
Thank you very much. You've been through a horrible experience,and, as I said earlier, you've been very brave. I have no more questions, andI am going to ask the Chairperson to take over.
CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. Any further questions?Dr Mgojo.
DR MGOJO: Thank you very much, Ma Mohali. I am not goingto be long too because I feel that you have undergone a strain derived fromyour experiences. I just want to ask just a few things just to fill up. Somewherein your narrative you said that when Bokile was arrested he was kept in a flat.--- Yes, I said that.
Where was that flat, and whose flat was that? --- This wasthe Municipality flat in the township. It was called the Native Affairs flat.We used to call it flat.
Thank you. You said again that the police once asked you togo and fetch your son in Lesotho, and when you went there you found that hewas in a camp which had nobody, and he refused to come back. Did the police ask
you to give a report about your trip since you were sent bythem? --- When I got to the police station I never told them that I had gotmy son at the camp. I told them that I had got him from the street.
And did they ask you why he had refused to come back? --- Hesaid he was scared that they would kill him. He said he didn't want to comeback, he was scared that the police would kill him.
Mrs Mohali, you know that these police were very inquisitivepeople. The question I am asking, when you came back, since they knew that youhad gone there, they had encouraged you to go there, did they come back andsay that, "Why did your son refuse to come back?" This is what I want to establish.They never worried you about why he didn't want to come back? --- The police,when they said that we must go to Lesotho, they said I must go to Fountain andtell them as to how I went. Then they asked me as to where my son is. I toldthem that he refused. They asked me why. I told them that he was scared thatthey would kill him. They said they wouldn't kill him, he must come back.
(Inaudible) ... your narratives you have mentioned the SecurityPolice. I am not sure which Security Police they are. You mentioned those fromThaba Nchu and those from Ladybrand. Were they the SAPs or the BophutatswanaGovernment Police, or a mixture? --- According to what they said to me, thatis where he died, they said all the police came together. It was police fromLadybrand, as well as YB, as well as Bloemfontein policemen were there, butthe most were white people or white policemen. (Inaudible) ... now you know that the Truth
Commission is interested to the families too. How much hasthis affected you as a mother, these experiences? --- They affected us so terribly,because each and every time we were in pain. I even had diseases or sufferedfrom certain illnesses because of what had happened. We lost so much due torunning from pillar to post trying to trace my son.
Thank you.
You have already heard from Mr Borain how we sympathise withyou in all the troubles that you've been through. It's not easy to comfort people,but we are trying. Even if we are weak, but we always say let God be the personwho comforts you, let Him be the person who takes car of you, because the storythat you have told us today is a very sorrowful one that your son had been killedin that way, and thereafter you didn't even know where he was buried. To addto that the one coming after him was also tortured as you have indicated.
We want to thank all the women, because they are brave. Youwomen are very powerful women. You are forgiving, and that surprises us. MayGod be with you and your family in this time of trouble. We all know that Heis Emmanuel and He will be with you. We are free today, we have freedom today,because most people sacrificed themselves. Your children were also sacrifices.We thank you. May God bless you. We want to thank you.
MR BORAIN: Mr Kaloti, could you put the earphones onplease. You have your sister with you today.
MR KALOTI: Yes.
MR BORAIN: We'd like to welcome you both, and I knowyour name, Elvis Kaloti, is that correct?
MR KALOTI: Yes.
MR BORAIN: I am not sure about your sister's name. Perhapsshe could tell me, or you could tell me your name, or you could tell me yoursister's name.
MR KALOTI: She is Ellen Kaloti.
MR BORAIN: Thank you very much. Now, are you both goingto speak, or just you, Mr Kaloti?
MR KALOTI: No, she's speaking.
MR BORAIN: She's going to be speaking?
MR KALOTI: Yes.
MR BORAIN: And you as well?
MR KALOTI: No.
MR BORAIN: No. So it's just - okay. All right, that'sEllen Kaloti. I want to welcome both of you very warmly to the witness stand.Thank you for waiting. I suppose you wondered if you were ever going to haveyour chance. You can hear me all right on the earphones, no problem? Wonderful.Thank you very much indeed. This is a story about detention, torture and harassment.That is the story you're going to tell, but before you do I must ask you totake the oath, so I'll be grateful if you will please stand.
ELLEN KALOTI: (Sworn, States)
MR BORAIN: Commissioner Lyster is going to help youto tell the story, and I am going to hand over to him now.
/MR LYSTER
MR LYSTER: Thank you, Mrs Kaloti. I understand thatthe evidence that you will give relates to the assault and torture or your brother,Elvis, who is with you today, and that he has requested you to speak and tellus about this because you were there when this happened. Can you tell us thatstory, and before you do that will you just tell us something about where youlived, you and your brothers. Just give a short background to this incidentwhich you're going to tell us about. Thank you. --- We are staying in 1160 MogwaneStreet, Bathu Location. In that year when we have this pain it was in the eveningwhen the police came in. It was white police. There were also black policemen,but they were outside in the van. They knocked at the door, and when they openedthey said they were looking for Edwin. When they knock Edwin said we must hidehim. We did that. When they get into his bedroom we told them that, "This isElvis, not Edwin." They pulled him while he was still sleeping. He was beatenup. He was bleeding profusely through the mouth and the ears. In front of thedoor where they were beating him there was some pool of blood. He couldn't evenscream, he was so quiet. We thought that he was dead. One of the police cameinside the house and then he took a bucket of water. It was very cold in thatday because it was winter. He just threw the water over his body. They tookhim. They put him inside the van. When I was prepared to sleep I couldn't sleep,it was very painful, and then I woke up my sister and then I told her that wemust go to Philonomi Hospital, maybe they are taking him there. Then my sistersaid, "Let's go. There was no - the street was so quiet, it was very dark outside.Our parents said to us, "How "are you going to reach that place?" I said to my mother, "Godis there. He is going to accompany us." It was like that, and then we went there.When we arrived at the Philonomi Hospital there were security guards outside.By that time we were not allowed - if you are sick you are not allowed to getinside the hospital. I said to her we must just - we must plan as if I pretendas if I am sick. They allowed us to get inside. When we were in Philonomi therewere police in the passages of Philonomi Hospital. Then we came back. We metthis other girl on the way who is a nurse in Philonomi Hospital, who asked uswhat is it that we are looking for. I told her that - I asked if the policedidn't came with a boy who was bleeding. They said he is inside. And then Isaid I was afraid to go in and check, and then she said, "You must go in andcheck." When I tried to look one of the policemen was looking at us, and thenI had to go back again ... (inaudible - end of Side A, Tape 2) ... and I couldn'thear what was going on. I told my sister that, "This is not going to help. Rathergo back home." We went back home. He was in the hospital for three days. Therewas - he was unconscious, he was in a coma. We used to go there just to watchhim, and then we'd go back again because we couldn't communicate. After threemonths he was still in hospital. On that particular day when I went to see himI found out the police had taken him. I went back home and I told them thatthe police have taken him. We couldn't sleep at night, even during the day.Even where I was working the police were always coming too, but each time whenthey go to fetch me at work they said to me they are looking for Edwin. I usedto tell them that I don't even know where is Edwin. Since I last saw him during that particular nightI never saw him again. They were always giving me a hard time. One day theycame to my workplace, they said I must give them Edwin's photos, and I toldthem that I don't have Edwin's photos. They said to me ... (incomplete)
INTERPRETER: The interpretation service will resumeas soon as the speaker is ready. (Pause) --- They said to me they knew, theyheard where he is, he was in Lesotho. They said to me I must go to Lesotho andbring him back. I told them that I don't even know Lesotho and I am not goingthere. I don't even have relatives there. I told them that I am not going there.This Prinsloo came to me. He said to me he is going to arrest me. I said tohim, "Instead of arresting me, I don't even know because I am not always withthe kids, you'd better kill me because I am not going there." I never saw himagain.
MR LYSTER: Thank you, Mrs Kaloti. You said Elvis wasin hospital for about three months, and was he discharged after that, and whathappened to him after he was discharged? --- When we were in Philonomi lookingfor him we got the message that the police took him. I've been to each and everypolice station, I couldn't get him. But what was surprising, there was thisother lady whose children were also arrested. They said even Elvis was in theircase also with her children. She always tell me when she was going to court,and I went there with the hope that I will get Elvis. And then I asked wherewas Elvis. The Judge told the police that he is somewhere in Bathu. He saidthey must go and fetch him. They brought him. When I asked why didn't they broughthim before then he said the police were always taking him to assault him somewhereelse. They always asked him where was his brother, whether he belongs to anyof the political organisations, who were those people who were always recruitingthem in those organisations?
And eventually did Elvis come back to the family house? ---He came back on the day of the case. It was 14 or 16 of them. One of them wasreleased by the name of Madlathela.
(Inaudible) ... convicted of anything, or was he released bythe Court? --- He was released without any questions. There were no questionsthat were asked to him. It was the only children who were being questioned,because when the police started to visit us they were not looking for him, theywere looking for Edwin, therefore he was the one who was being tortured.
Just to clarify that, Edwin is the older brother of Elvis,is that correct? --- Yes, it's true.
(Inaudible) ... the police were looking for Edwin? --- I didn'tknow the reason, and I didn't know where were they going to take him to.
Was Edwin a member of any political party at the time? ---He was a member of the ANC.
And you mentioned a policeman by the name of Prinsloo. Is hefrom the South African Police, the SAP, or Bophutatswana Police? --- He wasin the Fountain offices from the Special Branch.
And another witness this morning has also mentioned the wordFountain Police, and in many of the statement that we have taken from peoplefrom this area they have mentioned Fountain Police. What was Fountain? --- It is a place where the Special Branch police are posted.
Also you didn't clarify which year this took place, Mrs Kaloti.Can we just clarify that. When was Elvis taken to Philonomi Hospital? --- Itwas in 1979. It was just after a local policeman's house was burnt down, andhis name was Mojaki. He was staying in Malay Camp. On the same night when hishouse was burnt Elvis was assaulted. They were actually looking for Edwin, notElvis.
(Inaudible) ... at the time of this assault? --- He was 18years.
(Inaudible) --- Yes, he was still schooling at Lekayi PrimarySchool, and his brother was in Sifunelo High School.
Has this experience, his assault, has it affected him in anyway that you are able to say? --- Yes, it affected him mentally, because evennow he is at home. He is doing nothing. He is unemployed. Our mother is takingcare of him. She is doing everything for him. Even he is sick my mom has totake him to the doctor, and every time he is sick we know that it is a mentaldisorder. In 1990, it was in December on the 24th, he was sleeping. I don'tknow what was happening to him, and I don't know how did he feel, but he wasshouting, and when we got into his bedroom he was a changed person. And whenwe asked him what was the matter he fell, and we called an ambulance to takehim to Philonomi Hospital. He was released the next day on the 25th, and thenhe wasn't - he wasn't okay. He has a mental problem if I have to indicate that.
And is he taking any sort of medication for that? --- No, heis not under any medication. Is he receiving any grant of any sort, disability grant? ---No.
Mrs Kaloti, do you remember the names of any of the policemenwho you witnessed assaulting your brother? --- I can't remember their names,but I can identify them.
(Inaudible) ... working, or where they are based? --- I didn'tknow where do they live, but what I know it was white policemen.
How did they actually assault him? --- They were hitting himwith guns, big guns, and they were hitting him right on his head. And they usedto point us with those guns so that we can go back inside the house.
And what became of Edwin, Mrs Kaloti? --- Since Edwin leftand we didn't even know where he was until the day when they came and said tome I must go to Lesotho. That's when I said I am not going to Lesotho. And Iheard that he was in Tanzania until the day he came home again to stay withus.
And is he staying with you presently? --- He is not stayingwith us.
But is he back in the country, he's living here, is that right?--- Yes, he is around.
I'll hand over now back to the Chairman and ask if there areany other questions that other people would like to ask.
CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Any further questions? Dr Mgojo.
DR MGOJO: Thank you very much, my sister. Are thereany reasons that Edwin has been away from home for such a long time when mostof the people were very anxious to get home? That when he is back in South Africahe does not go home and stay at home? Have you inquired from him why he cannotcome back at home and stay at home? --- I never asked for any reason becauseI didn't know where he was. But I wanted to the police where were they goingto take him to, and they didn't tell me where they were going to take him to.
You said that Edwin is back now. When Commissioner RichardLyster was asking you you said that he is back now in the country, and the questionwas that is he living with you at home, and you said that no, he is not at home.Now, it means that now he has got a freedom of movement now because of the newSouth Africa now that things have changed. Why I am interested, is there anyreason why he does not stay at home now? --- There's no reason. It's just thathe feels that he is going to stay wherever he stays right now, because sometimeshe is working. He is working for the Umkhonto we Sizwe, so he decided to staywhere he stays right now.
In the statement here it is said that Elvis Kaloti does nothave a permanent job, and he would like to have a permanent job. What type ofa job would you think that he would do, because you have already said that heis mentally sick ... (inaudible) --- With hands he can work. Any kind of jobhe can do. Things like cleaning. Any job that he is capable of doing he feelsthat it's right for him.
Thank you, Sir.
CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much for the evidence thatyou have brought forward. We don't know at the moment, maybe the Commissioncan help as he is not well. Maybe there is something that he can get. As we are still telling the othersthat God be with you, and we can also try that we be of assistance to you. Thankyou very much.
MR BORAIN: Mr Mekwe, can you hear my voice all righton the earphones?
MR MEKWE: I can hear very well.
MR BORAIN: Good. Thank you very much. I can hear youtoo, so we can make a start. You are very welcome. We are pleased to see you.You are going to tell a story about what happened to you, not about what happenedto someone else, and in telling a story it brings back many memories, and someof those are very painful, and we hope that in the telling of the story it willnot a distressful experience but a healing one, because please remember thatyou are telling this story to people who have been asked by the President tohear what you have to say so that South Africa can know, and indeed the worldcan know, what took place during many years in our country. We feel deeply foryou, and so many others like you, and we wait to hear what you have to say.Before you start would you please stand for the oath?
RATSEBE JEREMIAH MEKWE: (Sworn, States)
MR BORAIN: Thank you very much. Mr Dlamini is goingto assist you in the telling of your own story, and I hand over to him now.Thank you.
MR DLAMINI: Thank you, Mr Mekwe. We appreciate the opportunitythat you have accorded us to share your experiences, which go back to 1971.And before perhaps we could ask clarifying questions can I ask you to relatethis story as it happened. Thank you. --- It was on the 7th of May 1971. Itwas on a Friday. I was at work. As I was going out of my office, proceedingto the toilet, my co-worker called me and told me that police were looking for me. As I got there I saw quite a number of guys,there may have been 24 or 25. They were all white and they asked me what myname was. I told them my name was Jeremiah Mekwe. They handcuffed me, they putme into the car. I told them to phone somebody and tell her that I have beenarrested. They refused. They took me to the police station. I told them it wasthe first time that I was being arrested, I don't know anything about the policestation. They told me about 180 days. As we came they asked me where I was attendingschool. They asked me when did I come to Welkom. I told them it was in 1982.They asked me names of people that I knew all of them. They said to me I shouldknow these people. They asked me quite a number of persons. Each time I toldthem they used to say the right person, the right person. Thereafter they saidI should show them where I slept. I showed them my bedroom. They took my schoolbooks. They took all these books. I thought I had stolen books. They took meon a Friday, and Monday they came back to me and said they were taking me toVirginia Police Station. That is where they assaulted me, they said I must talk.They said I had said at some stage that I am going to put all the white peoplein the sea because I didn't want them. They assaulted me repeatedly. They tookme to Virginia River. They put me into a sack and they threw me in there. Theykept on saying I must speak the truth, I must admit that I at some stage saidI will put all the white people in the sea. When I went to court I told theCourt that all the things that I had said before I had said them under duress.I was sickly. Then I was taken to a doctor. I was very much afraid. Each thingthey said I
/admitted.
admitted, even if I didn't know. They told me that they didn'tactually want me, they wanted six people. They wanted Mr Malema, Mr Rabushaba,Mr Libenya. There were five actually. They said if I could get all those peoplethey'll leave me. I said, "Oh, you're hitting me, you're assaulting me becauseyou want other people." It's only then that they charged me. I don't know whatthey were charging me for. In 1971 they told me that I am supposed to appearin court. When I got there I got all papers which were alleging that I was aPAC member, I was trying to overthrow the Government. When we got to court thecourt was held in Bloemfontein. Accused No 1 was John Coetzee, No 2 was Lithiyane,No 3 was Mr Mekwe, No 4 was Rabushaba, No 5 was Libenya, 6 Malema. The threeof us got four years, the other five got five years. On the 2nd of December- on the second week they told us we should prepare ourselves, we were goingto Pretoria. We saw a Land Rover coming. There was a man who was speaking Afrikaans.I thought it was a white man, but it wasn't. I saw this car proceeding upwards.We went in this Land Rover, we went past Bloemfontein to Beaufort West. Whenwe got there the gentleman who was inside told me that we were proceeding forRobben Island, but he was afraid to speak. When we got to Cape Town, in NewlandPrison, at 6 o'clock I said, "I am very young. Where are you taking meto?" We got so many people there. We looked at the blackboard and it was written1 016. I was surprised that I could be taken as Robben Island as young as Iwas. I regarded that as a misdemeanour, not a serious offence, so I was surprisedwhy they were taking me to the Robben Island. I met Steve Tshwete and all theother people who were there. These old men told me, "My child, we can see thatyou don't know anything about politics." I admitted that I didn't know anythingabout politics. I said to them, "No, I don't know what I have been arrestedfor, so I just want to sit and think." They said to me I must join the organisationsbecause when I go outside I will be harassed by the police. I ended up joiningthe organisations. Then they told me that I was going to do one year in RobbenIsland. When I went out I was taken to Pretoria - Port Elizabeth. I stayed forquite a few weeks. They took me to East London Juvenile Prison. I stayed fora few months. They took me to Welkom. They took me to Ligwa(?) maximum prison.I stayed for a few weeks. They took me to Bethlehem. I stayed three days. Itwas like I had stayed there for three years, because I was being thrown in andout of every prison. They took me and they said I was going to be interrogated,I am going to be taken to Welkom, to Qua-Qua. I was even given a house there.I asked, "What is actually going on?" because I was being to another countrynow. By then the Minister of Justice was Mr Ben Johnson. He allowed me to cometo Welkom. When I got there they were following me. I got my mother. My motherwas sick, she suffered a stroke. My father had also left the police force becausehe was sick. I met another gentleman who said whoever was coming from RobbenIsland could be helped financially. He gave me an address as 81 Jureson Streetin Braamfontein, South African Council of Churches. It was still being led byJohn Rees. When I came back I was arrested once more. They said to me I wastaking money from the communists. When I came back from there they said, "Wesaid to you you "must deal with the mines, don't get into the towns." Theytook me another time. They arrested me for two years. Then in 1977 I said tothem, "If I come out of this prison please don't harass me any more. I havejust had enough of your harassment." Then they took me, they said, "There comesa communist."
Thank you, Mr Mekwe. I just want to ask a few clarifying questions.You mentioned that when you were arrested you were too young to understand whatwas happening. How old were you? --- I was born in 1946 in January on the 21st.
And also you said that you were coming from work. What typeof job were you doing at that time? --- I was a clerk.
Can you tell us more about the organisation and the dutiesthat you were performing as a clerk? --- I used to do quite a number of jobs.I would be a clerk, an accountant, because at that time they used to just giveyou work, just ordinary work, ordinary office work. I was doing quite a numberof jobs. When they see that there's something that - I was also a storeman.When they see that there's an odd job they would give it to you.
(Inaudible) ...the company you were working for? --- It wasWelkom Engineering.
Thank you. Can you also tell us about your family, the wifeand the children in particular? I know that at the moment you are staying withyour mother. --- I had a wife, as well as kids. When I remember quite well,according to the old laws when you get arrested the Security Police would goand tell your wife that she must divorce you because he is going to die in RobbenIsland. So women used to listen to that, so when she came back shedivorced me.
Thank you. And the children, where are they and how old arethey? --- Since they ran away with their mother I have never seen them. Evenwhen my father died they never came to the funeral. I never saw them again.
The conviction that was imposed on you by the Court in Bloemfontein,what was the nature of the conviction? What was the offence? --- When the Courttold me - according to my attorney they said to me I don't know anything. Theysaid to me I must tell the Court as to how I was arrested. I told them thatI was assaulted, I was never told - I was just told that I was a member of PAC,I was a member of all those organisations. So the Court threw away such evidence,they said to me I was vague.
In your opinion what do you think was the real reason behindyour arrest and sentencing? --- That question is a very beautiful question thatshould be asked. When we asked the gentlemen with whom I was arrested therewas a Council here in Welkom. This Council used to harass people, and therewas also another Council in 1969. We followed up that Council. As we were followingit up unfortunately the people with whom we were arrested, Moses Libenya andJohn Coetzee, they had a book called, "Cry Our Beloved Country." At the timethat book was banned. Now, these police got this clue that this gentleman whowe were attending school with, that is me, we had this banned book in our possession.Now the police told me if I point out the people who were in possession of thatbook they would release me. Now, I saw it was difficult because they ... (incomplete - end of Side B, Tape2) ... myself how could I have handled such a gun. I don't even know where Tanzaniais. I don't know even know Bloemfontein, I am from Welkom. I know Welkom. Youcan ask me about Welkom.
One more last question from myself and then I'll hand overto the Chairperson. Are you presently employed? --- I am not working at all.When I work I work only for three weeks, then they tell me that they don't wantme. Now I am working as a volunteer in the offices. I help in the welfare department,especially in the pensions department, especially when the white people robthem. I help in so many ways, as well as grants. Now they help me financiallybecause they know that I am not working.
(Inaudible) ... Mekwe. I'll now hand over to the Chairperson.
CHAIRMAN: Thank you. We thank you very much. We cansee that you are grown up now. We thank you for the story that you've relatedto us, and the manner which you were harassed. We hope that this Commissionwould perhaps be able to assist you in any which way it can. We will help. Wethank you very much.
MR BORAIN: Good afternoon, Mrs Matsunyane. Can you hearme all right?
MRS MATSUNYANE: I hear you perfectly well, Sir.
MR BORAIN: Good. Thank you very much. I would like tosay a very warm word of welcome to you. It's been quite a long morning, andwe are delighted that you are finally at the witness stand and ready to tellyour story, which goes back to 1988 and '89, when your house, according to yourstory, was petrol bombed. Before you tell that story, and the suffering thatthat brought about, will you please stand for the taking of the oath.
METABO ADELENA MATSUNYANE: (Sworn, States)
MR BORAIN: Thank you, please be seated. Mrs Matsunyane,my colleague, Mrs Gcabashe, is now going to take over from me and she is goingto help you to tell the story. Thank you.
MRS GCABASHE: Good morning, Ma'am. We are really delightedthat you could come to the Commission. Can you first start and, you know, tellus more briefly about your family, and thereafter you will tell us about whathappened to your family according to the statement you have given us. Can youhear me? --- I think I cannot hear you perfectly well.
Can you hear me? --- I will request you to speak a bit louderbecause I don't hear you.
Can you please just explain briefly about your family life,as well as all that happened until now, whatever you've written in your statement.--- Shortly I can say as from 1988, that is in 1988, I was with my childrenin the house. It was towards 10 o'clock. As we were still sitting I was actually preparing them for theirconcert. Just before we finished we went into our bedrooms, we prepared ourselvesto sleep. Now, I have a five-year-old grandson, who used to remind me that weshould pray. Just as he started praying he said amen, then we heard a loud noise,a loud bang on top of the roof. Many stones were being hurled on top of theroof, as well as through the windows, and the stones were falling into the house.By God's mercy there isn't even a single stone that hit any of the children.I stood and held the door. I tried to shake the door as if I was going to goout just to scare them, but I didn't actually go out. When we looked throughthe windows we saw girls and boys, many of them, quite a group. They were goingout of the window. Some were going out of the gate. When it became in the morningI heard that these children slept at the reverend's place. That is our elderat the Catholic Church. That is where that group went to sleep at the reverend'splace. My child woke up. That is my granddaughter, went to the police station.The policemen came in and they just looked scantily. They asked what happened.We didn't even know who had attacked us. It was at night, we couldn't identifyany of them. But we slept. We didn't have windows, we had to sleep using doorsto close the windows. We thought they would come back for us, but well, theydidn't come back. The police did not help me in any way. They just looked anddid nothing, because I said to them, "I don't know who the people were." Theywere not old people, they were very young children. They said I should findout who the people were so that I can open a case. It was in 1980, and in 1989 they burnt my house.
Can I ask you a question? You said it was in 1999. Do you wantto say it was in another year maybe? --- They started in 1988. They only threwstones, and in 1989 they burnt my house. In 1990 again they burnt. It was threeyears consecutively.
Are you finished telling your story? --- I think I was stillon the 1988 issue. In 1989 after they have burnt my house we went to the policestation, and the police came and they took photos. They went all around thehouse, they took photos, they saw everything that was burnt to ashes, and theyasked me whether do I know those people. And I said to them, "No, I do not knowthe people." But there was a boy who used to come and help me at home. I wouldsend him to go and fetch me water with a barrow, and he told me, he whisperedto me who the people were. And the police were also there at the time he wastelling this story. I regretted the fact that I took his name to the policebecause he was severely assaulted and he had to run away from his home to goand stay in Lesotho. He left schooling. He was a young boy. I was so hurt, myheart was troubled, and I said to myself it could have been better if it wasmy child. I felt sorry for this boy for what happened to him. He came back homeafter quite a long time. The police would take me and put me into the van togetherwith him, and we would drive around the township in the B Section, and theywould say to us, "Point the boys who did this to your house." But this boy couldn'tidentify any one of them. I didn't know one of them, but I had to be in thevan every day they were conducting their searched. And I was then accused - the boy was then accused, because they said to him,"We saw you in the police van. We saw you with the police. You were going totell them that we burnt Mrs Matsunyane's house," and they would assaulthim and they would harass him. In 1990 I was sitting in front of my house, andI called another neighbour so that we can go to a funeral. While we were stilltalking, discussing this issue of going to the funeral, I saw a group of youngpeople coming, and they stopped right in front of my house. It was in the afternoonat about 4 o'clock. And they made a circle, and after that they talked. It wasright in front of my house, and I said to this woman, "Let us go and sit onthe stoep." We didn't hear anything that they were saying. Then they dispersed.They chased away the young ones, they said, "Go, go." The young ones went off,and the elderly ones stayed behind and they were talking. After a while theydispersed and they all took different directions. I said to this woman, "I amnow scared. I have asked you to go to the funeral with me, but I am not relaxedat all. Can you please go," and that woman left. It was on the 16th of June.The same night we heard bombs. It was just after we've enjoyed our supper. Myhouse was surrounded, but luckily nobody was injured in that case. All the thingsin my bedroom were burnt, but something surprising - there was a small table.We used to put a Bible on that table, and some few books. This table was burntinto ashes, but the book, the Bible, was not even affected, it just fell ontop of those ashes. It was not affected by the fire. Even the police, the sergeants,were pointing - were looking at this, were showing the others, because therewere ashes, but the Bible fell when the table was burning, but the Bible was notburnt. It was a long story. I lost everything. I was mentally disturbed. Thepolice even in that case did not help me. Everything ended up nowhere. I didn'tfind any assistance of any kind. I think I am finished.
We thank you, Mrs Matsunyane. I think you've said everythingyou wanted to say. --- Yes, I think I have finished everything I wanted to say.
And we are grateful to hear that your Bible was not affectedin that fire. It shows exactly the grace of God that is for each one of us here.I have a few questions to ask so that we can get clarity on certain issues.If I listened to you carefully you said you were busy preparing yourselves fora leader who was to come. Do you know the name of the leader? --- I think itis Dr T K Mobede.
The second question that I still want to ask.
INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.
MRS GCABASHE: Can you please tell us what was this ...Dikwankwetla(?)? --- Are you asking me who were they? Can you please tellus briefly about Dikwankwetla? --- I have to tell you that I was so fond ofthe Dikwankwetla. It was a party.
I didn't quite understand you. --- I think I have a problemwith my ears.
Did you hear my question? --- Can you please repeat your question.
In your statement to referred to a party called Dikwankwetla.Can you tell us a bit what this party was all about? --- I stayed in Thaba Nchufor quite a long time. I didn't have any place to stay for quite a long time, and every time I would go and find a place to stay theywould refer me to Qua-Qua. I didn't know anything connected to politics, I wanteda place to stay like a mother who's got children. I didn't want to be lodgingall over Thaba Nchu. Now, this Dikwankwetla party gave us a place to say inButsabelo, and I decided to join. There was no any good reason to follow thisparty, but I wanted a house to stay in and I joined them.
You stayed in Butsabelo? --- Yes, we stayed in Butsabelo. Weare the first people to stay in Butsabelo.
You even further said that the children who threw stones atyour house, who burnt it, went to stay with the reverend, the father at theRoman Catholic Church. Do you remember the name of the father? --- His nameis Mr Motsula.
Now, these children who burnt your house, did you have an ideaof whether they belonged to any party or not? --- Yes, they were the ANC. Yes,they belonged to the ANC.
If I may ask you a question. Is there anything that you wouldlike the Commission to help you with, even if we don't have those powers? ---I lost so many things, and being a single woman without a husband I would requestthe Commission to help me with the house. I would like my house to be repaired,and if I can be given money so that I can buy the furniture that got damaged.Because even at the police station they have information regarding the valueof the furniture.
The last question that I have. The policemen you reported thismatter to, were they the Bophutatswana Police or the South African Police? Thepolice station that you went to report this matter to? --- It was a policestation in Butsabelo.
Were they the South African Police or Bophutatswana Police?--- No, they were not Bophutatswana Police, they were Butsabelo Police.
Thank you very much. We have listened to your story, and thenI will now take everything back to the Chairman so that he can conclude.
Mother, I just want to pursue that question which was askedby Mrs Virginia Gcabashe about the children who burnt your house and they werekept in the mission of a Roman Catholic father. What was the connection betweenthis father and the children? Do you know of any connection? --- I don't know.I don't know their relationship. I was told by his child, because he woke upthe next morning early to come and tell me that the youths slept at his home.
Did this father know that these children were involved in burningpeople's houses? --- I don't have any information. I don't know whether he knewthat these youths were burning houses.
You never complained to him, asked him why he was keeping thepeople who were burning? --- I went to him. I went to him after receiving thenews that the youths slept over at his house. He also came to inspect my house,and I told him, "I heard that they were overnight at your place." He said, "Yes.While I was sleeping I heard a group of people getting into my house, into thebedroom where my children were sleeping," and he could hear them saying, "Canyou please switch the lights "off," and they switched the lights off. They all slept athis house.
To put the record straight maybe, so this was not the Catholicpriest. It was the Catholic elder, not the priest. Is that true? --- It wasthe Catholic elder, not the priest.
CHAIRMAN: We really feel with you for the tortures thatyou have been through, and we try to explain to people that this is a Commissionthat has been put in place to listen to the different stories of our country.We don't want to put anybody aside. We have to listen to both sides and thenwe have to understand that people suffered a lot and they were harassed. Someof them were harassed by the police, and some of them were harassed by the ANCand some other parties. As the Commission we have to find out the truth, andthen we have to listen to all people. I am trying to say this, that evenif we are listening here we are not allowed that if a person belongs to a differentparty then people should now start groaning, because if that is the case I willhave to clear this hall, because we are here to listen to different storiesfrom different people. If a person is a Nationalist Party we have to listento him. If he is white we have to listen to him, because we say this is a Truthand Reconciliation Commission. You do not reconcile with your friend, you reconcilewith your friend you hated before. Now, the President of the country has putus here to listen to everybody. I am now requesting that we do not react whenwe hear the stories that we don't associate ourselves with. We don't have tofeel any bad at all. By so saying I want to say to you, Mrs Matsunyane, that wefeel sorry for what you have been through. We don't mind which party you belongto, but you have the right to come before the Commission, you have the rightto get a sympathy from our side. As we have been saying throughout, we wouldask God to be with you, we would ask Him to console you. We want to thank you.
MR BORAIN: (Inaudible) ... to see you. You have a storyto tell about your son, who died in very mysterious circumstances, and we aregoing to listen very carefully to your story. It is a story full of grief, becauseto lose a son is very painful. I would ask you please to stand to take the oath.
ERICA DOREEN MOTSABE KOKUNSI: (Sworn, States)
MR BORAIN: Thank you very much indeed. Mrs Kokunsi,Dr Mgojo is going to lead you as you tell your story, and I hand over tohim now.
DR MGOJO: Can you speak Zulu or Xhosa? --- I speak Sotho.
Ma'am, just relax and be free to tell all what you want totell the Commission. Don't reserve anything. This is your only chance whereyou can tell your pain. Can you please tell us about your family and the background,and when you have finished then tell us about this story, what happened? ---I was married in Zeerust. I am talking about something that I didn't declarein my statement. My surname was Mnisi. As I was married in Zeerust I stayedat home for 11 years, staying with my mother. After my mother had died - duringthose 11 years of staying at home I had a person that I got involved with becausemy husband had left me for quite a long time. That is Lindikile Mnisi. I hadtwo children. As I was still at home after my mother had died I asked my boss- there was absolutely no life at home, so I asked my boss to get me a housein Rockland. My boss couldn't get me a house in Rockland until I got this partnerthat I got involved with. I ultimately got divorced. Thereafter I went to stay in Rockland with my partner. We had a child, ason. Thereafter my son, Lindikile, I don't know whether he realised that wedidn't have a life, so he wasn't very impressed. My son disappeared. Duringthat time of his disappearance I heard stories that he was in Botswana. Theyused to name it Munsiwa at that time. I think my child was staying quite wellwith his stepmother. When he came back he was totally destroyed. When he cameback I tried to do some cultural cleansing so that my child could be fixed.That is our culture, it's part of our culture. Then he became fine. He wentto night school, he attended night school, because at the time he left he wasin standard seven or eight. As he was still attending this school he disappeared,and we didn't know where he went to. That was in 1976. That is when he starteddisappearing and reappearing. He would disappear for quite some time withoutus knowing where he was. At some stage I heard that he went with his friends.That was two children, Mr Madiba's children. They went with my son, they wentto Lesotho. As I was preparing myself to go to Lesotho to go and see my sonI met Mr Shele. He told me that he had met my son and my son had asked me tosend him a denim or a jean. He told me I mustn't go to Lesotho any more becausethey had gone to Tanzania. That very night I just couldn't sleep, I was crying,because I was preparing myself for Lesotho to see my son. Since then I haven'tseen him, since they said he went to Tanzania. The very same year I was surprisedwhen they inaugurated the President Mandela they said our children who had gonewould come back. I was looking forward that my son would also come back. I sawall the children had come back to Bloemfontein. I went to ask. There is another one who was afriend to my son. I asked this boy as to whether my son was coming back or not,because all of them had come back. I wanted to find out where my son was. Thisfriend told me that I shouldn't actually bother myself, because if my son wantedto contact me he would contact me, because he is alive. Then I went to Mrs Muthibiat UB Centre. I asked Mrs Muthibi whether they couldn't help me to look formy son, because since he went to Tanzania all the other children had come back,but mine hadn't come back. Way back in 1990, especially 1995, my younger childtold me that she had met Basi Muwadira. She told me that my brother had died.I felt very had because I didn't know what was happening, and apparently ourchildren do drink or take intoxicating liquor, so I didn't know what happened.Now, as we were told that we tried to make a follow up. I met Basi. Basi toldme that my son, Lindikile, had died. I tried to ignore him, and I told him thatall the children who had died were brought back to be buried by their parentsand their loved ones. How come my own son wasn't coming back to be buried? EvenBasi's relative - all the children were buried in Bloemfontein, so my son shouldalso come. I want to bury him, so I don't believe that my son is dead, or mychild. Muwadira came to me. He explained to me. He said he was always scaredto come and tell me. He told me that he didn't have a good life because he wasn'tworking. Then he tried to get work. Then he even got a partner. Then now hehas joined the police force. On that day, it was quite a few months ago, I feltmy shoulders going down, I felt very depressed. I prayed that the Lord wouldtry and heal me because I felt as if there was a hole in my heart,because now it was dawning on my that my child had died in 1985. But what surprisedme was I didn't know what had killed him. They alleged that he was killed bymalaria, but now how come I didn't get a report as to where he died? That surprisedme quite a lot. I don't have anything further to say.
Thank you, Mama. Thank you for your narrative. I am just goingto ask just a few questions. You spoke about a certain Machel who brought amessage to you from your son in Lesotho. Who is this Machel, or who was thisMachel? --- His name is Shele, but I have forgotten his surname. Shele, that'sthe name. I just made a mistake because I never went around looking for theirnames or trying to get their names. I didn't get enough time because I had tocome to the Truth Commission, and I just didn't have the energy or the means.Even at yesterday my bosses released me so that I can prepare myself for thehearing. I was a little bit mentally disturbed. I feel like I am going mad becauseI don't know where my son died. Maybe if I could know where his corpse is andwhat killed him I could rest. (Pause) I have got no more questions. I just wantto know how can you help me to know the whereabouts of my son or his corpse,because since he died in 1985 I don't know anything about him.
MR LAX: Thank you, Mama. Just one small question please.You mentioned a friend of your son's that told you that he was still alive andthat had known him in Tanzania, but you didn't tell us the name of that friend. Could you please, if you can remember, tell us that name? ---That friend is Basi Muwadira. He told me that my son had died in Tanzania. Hesaid he had heard it from the other ones. When I think I just cannot understand.It's as if they are trying to hide something, as if my son had been killed orsomething had been done to him, but nobody is prepared to own up. They saidhe was killed by malaria.
(Inaudible) ... try and look into the matter for you.
There are no words that we can use to heal your wounds, andthere are no words that we can use to heal a broken or wounded spirit, but wewould like you to accept our comfort, even though the words cannot measure thepain that you've gone through. You've gone through so much pain. There are twothings that affect you emotionally - because you don't know what happened toyour son. That's the most devastating. Maybe he died, and he died a long timeago, but you don't know, you don't have any details as to how he died, or wherehe died. You've got no testimony as to what killed him. You've got no evidencewhatsoever that confirms as to whether that is true or not. The second one isthat you don't even know whether he is really dead, and if he is where are hisbones or his corpse.
This Commission shall try by all means to help you by askingthe ANC whether they can explain or elaborate or give any knowledge whatsoeveras to what happened. But during all times that we are trying to help you, tosee what we can get with regard to your son's death, we ask the Lord to be with you and your family, to strengthen you,to comfort you and console you, to give you His grace. Thank you.
MR BORAIN: I'd like you welcome you. You've had a longmorning, and I understand that Mrs Thapedi is a little tired and would liketo go home as soon as possible, so we have brought you forward. Mr Thapedi,I understand that you are going to tell the story about your son, and that ifthere's anything else that needs to be said then Mrs Thapedi will confirmthat or add her own views and understanding of that. Is that right?
MR THAPEDI: That's fine.
MR BORAIN: Fine, thank you. You're very, very welcome,and you have a very difficult story to tell, and we feel for you very much asyou start to tell that. Would you please stand for the taking of the oath, andyou can both stand together.
MR AND MRS THAPEDI: (Sworn, State)
MR BORAIN: Thank you very much. Please be seated. Mycolleague, Mr Lyster, is going to take over from me, and he will guide you asyou tell your story. Thank you very much.
MR LYSTER: I also welcome you, Mrs Thapedi and Mr Thapedi,and you, like many other people who have given evidence today, and who willbe giving evidence over the next two days, are telling about the loss of a familymember, a grandson and a son, and we know this is a very difficult burden tocarry and we express our sympathy to you. Mr Thapedi, I think you, as the Deputy-Chairmanhas said, are going to start and tell us about your son and his death. So ifyou are able to give a little background as to where you live, how many childrenyou have, that sort of thing, what motivated your son to go into exile, and then the story, as far as you know it, of his death, youare now welcome to start. --- Thank you very much. Thank you very much. I thankyou for giving me a chance to give evidence, because I am the one who knowsabout my son. I have three children. Two of them have passed away. One of themwas schooling at Larago. I was working outside, outside the country. When Icame back I got Mary, who told me what is happening at home. My son was bornin 1962. It happened because of some of the conditions that my child can goaway, go to Lesotho. When I tried to follow him I was longing to see him. WhenI was in Lesotho I got his file. They told me that he is in Tanzania. Even themessage that I got in that office of the Interior I was told not to follow him.I was told not to follow him always. I was told that we will see when he comesback. Now I have a request. I am here to request the Commission to help me.I am not even sure - because I have been told that he died I am not sure whetheris he the right person who had been buried. I heard from people who were talking.It was on the 18th in Paper Street in Haydida(?). An ANC spokesperson said thata person had been shot, and I didn't know that it was my son and I couldn'teven think whether was it my son. After quite some time - I think it was a year- I heard this from people when they were talking. I was told that the personwho had been shot was my son. You know it's difficult to believe in rumours.I am now appealing to the Commission to help me so that I can be satisfied.My heart is not at ease, because when he left he was still alive. I won't besatisfied for seeing the bones only. Now I didn't want to say too much, I wantto be very short. I am going to briefly give you some of the few things as well. The firstthing that I want the Commission to do for me, I want to know how was my sonburied, because the family was not even informed. The ANC, together with theprevious regime, they should compensate me. I don't know what are they goingto do, but they have to compensate me because I am deeply hurt. I want themto come closer to me and investigate this matter, because I was only given thebones, and it's hard for me to believe that it was my son. The family was notinformed, as I have already mentioned. The previous regime only buried my sonwithout my consent. I am not totally satisfied. They should try, both the ANCand the previous Government, they should come up with something so that I canbe satisfied. I am not satisfied as you see me now. The rest you will hear frommy mother, because she has got something to tell you. And I also want to passmy condolences to all the people who suffered the same thing. I am referringto the people who lost their loved ones. It's not only me who came across sucha thing. I sympathise with everybody who suffered. I want to thank you, andI will expect anything from the Commission. I want his belongings, because Ialso heard that he had a few belongings. It's impossible - if you die as a personyou die and you leave the loved ones behind. I want to put matters clear. Iheard again that he had a car. I want the investigations to be done thoroughly,and if there is a car it has to come back home. I don't want to say anything.There are so many of us who have to give their evidence. May God please addto what I didn't say to you today. I think I will end up there. Thank you. Thank you, Mr Thapedi. We will certainly try and investigatewhat happened to your son, but I want to ask you one or two questions. You saidthat he was buried by the State. Where was he buried? --- The ANC did some investigationsand they managed to get his bones. I didn't even know when they were busy doingthose preparations. I only knew later that it was my son. They brought me hisremains and we buried those remains, and I don't want to go further by exhumingthe body. That I don't want. I think our enemies should tell us exactly whathappened because I don't know, I am in the dark.
(Inaudible) ... body was exhumed and reburied. From where wasit exhumed, or don't you know that? If you don't know that just say you don'tknow that. --- They exhumed the body in Pahameng Cemetery.
(Inaudible) ... Pahameng? --- Pahameng, it's one of the townshipsin Bloemfontein. You go straight - you go past Rockland and then on the left-handside that is Pahameng location.
And who was it from the ANC that assisted you to - with thatprocess? Do you remember the person who assisted the family to exhume the body,and for the body to be reburied? --- I still remember him. His name is YT Mohapi.
And you mentioned in your statement that someone from Bloemfontein,a Mr Mdewe, Oupa Mdewe, had notified you of your son's death and your son'sburial, is that correct? Mr Mdewe works at a pharmacy, he's a pharmacist, isthat right? --- Yes, he was also involved, but the person who gave us a clearindication was YT Mohapi.
After you son went into exile, after he went to Lesotho and to Tanzania, did you hear from him after he hadgone there in 1982? Did he make contact with you? --- I personally went to Interiorand I found his file there, and I was told that I am late. They didn't tellme how late I was, but they told me that he was now in Tanzania. I personallywent to the Interior.
(Inaudible) ... formal death certificate indicating that theperson who was buried was in fact you son? Do you have a death certificate likethat? --- I tried to find a death certificate, but the previous Government didn'ttake me into consideration. But the evidence that my son died is there, becausethere was a funeral service.
As far as you know there was never any inquest or any sortof court case about the death of your son. Is that right? --- There was no courtcase. We were never called.
Thank you, Mr Thapedi. I am going to ask any - hand over tothe Deputy-Chairman to see whether there are any other people who want to askquestions, and then we will go to your mother and ask whether she will confirmwhat you have said.
MR BORAIN: I wonder if I could suggest that we ask themother to speak first, because she may be able to give the ... (inaudible -end of Side B, Tape 3) --- The police came to our house and we were sleeping,but he was not there, I must say. They interrogated me. They wanted to knowhis whereabouts. You know, when they come they would come in large numbers,and each one of them will occupy an entrance, and they would even stand at thewindows. I am saying he is my son because I raised him up, and I said to him, "Can you please leave these people because they willend up killing you," and he said to me, "It doesn't matter whether they killme or not." We received a death certificate from the church. They asked me whetherdo I know that Abel Lethaba had died. I didn't follow the death certificate,but I was told that it was a death certificate from the Anglican Church. Theytook photos of him. I have the photos with me. You can have a look at them ifyou want to.
Mrs Thapedi, were those photos taken after he had died, afteryour grandson had died? --- The photos were taken when we unveiled the tombstone.I have the photos with me here. And the death certificate. You can take themand have a look at them. Even today I have never heard anything. I have neverheard anybody coming to tell me what happened to my son.
Mrs Thapedi, thank you. We will definitely have a look at thosedocuments after you have given your evidence. Are you satisfied ... (intervention)--- Can you please bring the documents.
Are you satisfied, or are you not satisfied, that the person- that the body that you exhumed and reburied was your grandson? Are you satisfiedthat that was your grandson? --- I was never satisfied. He died here and theydidn't even tell me when they buried him. I don't know anything. Where are thosephotos?
(Inaudible) ... absolutely sure you get them back. I promiseyou. Mrs Thapedi, so what you would like the Commission to do is to investigatehow your son died, and whether the body that you exhumed and reburied was infact your son, is that correct? --- I was never satisfied with the bones. Those were not the bones of my son.
Mrs Thapedi, the Commission will do whatever it is able todo to try and investigate that matter and to try and clear up this confusion,this mystery as to the death of your son. I now ask - unless you've got anythingelse to say I'll ask the Deputy-Chairman to ask the other Commissioners whetherthey would like to ask any questions.
MR BORAIN: Thank you very much, Mr Lyster. Are thereany other questions? Yes, Dr Mgojo.
DR MGOJO: Just short questions just to get the wholepicture of this. Mr Thapedi, you said that you were working outside the country.Was it Lesotho? --- I think I've toured the whole country, but there are partsof the country that I couldn't reach, especially the very violent areas.
You said in your story when you wanted to follow your son,when he had left, you were told that you must not follow him. Who are the peoplewho said that you must not follow him, and did they give you the reasons whyyou should not follow your son? --- Yes, they gave me a reason. They said hewill end up at the hands of the police. And then I thought to myself this istrue, because I don't know who was really after his back.
Thank you. The last question but one about the exhumation ofthe body. Did you ask these people that they must exhume the body of your sonwhen this process took place? --- Yes, I agreed with them because I wanted tobe satisfied. Because I couldn't go to anybody to complain. I thought my heartwould be at ease, but I have realised that I am not satisfied at all. I am still notsatisfied, because he left in one piece, but when he came back he was in pieces,he was in bones. I don't have any evidence whether have we buried the rightperson or not. I think I have already said that I don't want us to go and exhumethe body, it's not necessary, because we have already put a tombstone, but Imust say the enemies must come forward and they should confess so that I canbe satisfied. If they tell me a different story I might be satisfied, but atthis moment I am not.
(Inaudible) ... last question. You said during your testimonythat you received a death certificate from the church, and even suggested thatit was said that it was from the Anglican Church. Do you know which church,where it is situated, and who is the priest - or who was the priest or who isthe priest for that church? --- We didn't follow this issue. We only knew thatit was from the Anglican Church.
Any reasons, Mama, why you didn't follow it, because this isan important thing. You get this certificate, you are hurt, your son has beenburied, you're not sure that it's your son, and then you get a clue that itis the church which has buried him. Was it because of fear or what that youdidn't follow this when there was a certificate? --- I was scared. I was afraidof following up this matter, and I didn't do anything. You wouldn't say anyword. As the father of this child I went to the mortuary to find the death certificate,but they didn't give me any clue. We have to get the death certificate at themortuary, but they couldn't give me one. I even went to the police to find outwhat happened, and they said, "We don't want to involve ourselves with peoplewho skipped the country." It was difficult because nobody wanted to listen tome. It was difficult for me then.
Thank you. --- I think I wasn't at home when my mother receivedthe latest news and the death certificate. I have tried my best. I have beento places to find help, but no help was given to me, and she only received itby post.
Thank you, Sir.
MRS GCABASHE: Mr Thapedi, can you please go back whenyou said something about the exhuming of the body. When you exhumed the bodywas there a doctor, or was there a person who could tell you whether those boneswere those of your son? --- No, they didn't want me to get that kind of information.I want to tell you - that is at the mortuary. I was only shown the bones, andI saw them at the mortuary, and that was the last time. Even when they wereat home I didn't want to open the case to have a look at the bones.
MR LAX: Mr Thapedi, attached to your statement is aburial order that was given to us. Firstly, can you confirm that this is a copyof the burial order that was actually given to you? --- We received that lettervery late. That person was just telling me that he will give me an informationas to what happened to my son. Even the names that are on that letter I do notknow them. Those are fictitious names. I know my son's names. He is Abel Thapedi.Those are just fictitious names. I do not know them.
One other question. Who is the person that actually gave youthis letter? --- I was given the letter by YT Mohapi. He called me to theANC offices and then he gave me the whole in formation. The documents we gotthem from him.
(Inaudible) ... follow up with him about that. Thank you.
MR BORAIN: Mrs Thapedi and Mr Thapedi, your son andgrandson died under very mysterious circumstances. One of the worst things isnot to know, not to be sure, and you have heard my colleagues tell you thatwe are going to do everything we can. We will try and talk with Mr Mohapi andalso with Mr Mdewe, and we will do everything we can to establish as much ofthe truth as we can, and as soon as we do we will be in touch with you again.
In the meantime we give to you our love and our condolencesin the loss of your son. We have noted your requests. We will do everythingwe can to assist, and we trust that God will give you strength and grace tocontinue. And thank you again very much indeed for coming.
MR BORAIN: Good afternoon, Mr Olifant. You can hearme all right?
MR OLIFANT: Yes, Sir.
MR BORAIN: No problem?
MR OLIFANT: No problem.
MR BORAIN: Excellent. Thank you. A warm welcome to you.Thank you very much for coming. In a minute I am going to try and guide youas you tell your story, but we need for you to take the oath, so will you pleasestand.
SHADRACK THEKO OLIFANT: (Sworn, States)
MR BORAIN: Thank you very much. Please be seated. Ihope you will feel as relaxed as is possible in a setting like this. It's avery big hall, there are lots of people. Some of us you don't know, but we arehere on behalf of the nation, appointed by the President to hear your story,and I hope you'll feel very relaxed in telling that. Now, you are Shadrack ThekoOlifant. --- Yes, Sir.
Tell me just a little bit about yourself before you tell thestory of how you were tortured and when it happened. You may start. --- My nameis Shadrack Theko Olifant. I used to tout the youth for the ANC, and I usedto canvass school children or students. I was working under Steve Bohatshu.On the 29th he came to me in the evening. It was 2.00 am. When Comrade cameto me he told me that the police were looking for them. I went with him. Hestayed next to the shops. He asked me to get into the shop and do his importantthings. He gave me money. I went there and took certain things. He told me thathe won't be in for the following afternoon at the shop. He owned the shop actually. So he told me where I wouldget him. He went away, he left me. On the 3rd police came. I was at the wholesaleto order some stock for his shop. I was the only one who knew where he was.All the other people didn't know where he was. As I was in the wholesale buyingthe stock there came three Afrikaners. When they got to me they arrested me.I was pushing the trolley, because the students were using the shop to eat theirlunch. They asked me where my friend was. Then they made me leave the trolley.They arrested me, they took me to the shop. The children or the students whowere eating there at lunch time were also arrested. They believed that I wasworking with the students. Another one was an elderly man. His name was Mr Mohumutsi.The children were assaulted. I got other Afrikaner-speaking people who werein the office. The office was inside the shop. They asked me why I was in theshop, why I was busy in the shop if Steve wasn't there. They also assaultedme. They said I knew where Steve was. They searched the shop. There are certainthings that they got, but I don't know particularly what the things were. Thenthey went away and they left me. It was during the day. In the evening whenI went back home I heard that the police were looking for me. I asked my motherwhy were they looking for me. Then I went to the Comrades with whom I was living.I told the Comrades that they were looking for me as well as them. In the eveningI went to Comrade Steve. I told him the events of the day. I had to look fora place to stay, I couldn't go back home. Thereafter the Comrades with whomI was working, that is the Vulamasango Comrades, they were also wanted. All in all we were 22. We went to stay at my grandfather'splace, all of us.
Whereabouts is your grandfather's place? Which town or whichtownship was it? --- He stayed in Bloemfontein. We stayed there with the otherComrades. We also had female Comrades. We were all wanted. We stayed with mygrandfather. We could only go during the night or in the evening. During theday we had to stay inside. He used to run up and down getting us food and whateverwe needed, because we couldn't get out because we were still being hunted bythe police. We were hunted until the 6th of April 1986. It was approximately1.00 am in the morning when the kombis came. They took us into the kombi.We drove in the kombi and we got to Ladybrand. When we got to Ladybrand we gotinto the farms in Ladybrand. My grandfather is the only one who knew the Lesothoroute. As we were travelling we saw poles and we realised that we were towardsa soldiers' camp. And the soldiers sort of dispersed and they allowed us toget some space to move. We moved in between them. It was late at night, it was2.00 am in the morning. Others were able to run away, but I was amongst theones who were arrested. Some of the Comrades came in the morning. We stayedthere. We started to plan that we were going to pretend that we were a religiousgroup. We told them we were a religious group, we came by church or we had somechurch affiliation, until the soldiers took us to the soldiers' camp in Ladybrand.That's where we were assaulted. They even changed our names. They told us differentnames that we should address ourselves in. As we were still in there they kepton calling us into certain rooms. We kept on being assaulted. You would just feel somebody kicking you,you wouldn't even know who was kicking you. Thereafter they called the LadybrandSpecial Branch. When the Special Branch came they took us to the soldiers' camp.From the soldiers' camp they took us to the police station. It was then in theafternoon. It was a Monday on the 6th. We sat there up til they transferredus to Bloemfontein. When we got to Bloemfontein they took us to Ramkraal. Theyalso took us to the Fountain Police Station. It was black policemen as wellas white policemen. They put us into a certain room. When we got into that roomthey took me and Jewel Makubalo out. Jewel was my co-accused. They were accusingboth of us. Then they took us to separate rooms. That's where they started torturingus, assaulting us, violating us. They wanted Steve. They wanted to know fromme where Steve was. I told them that I didn't know where Steve was. Then theyasked me where was I going, because they arrested me during the day and I hadtold them that I didn't know anything. They closed us there and they kept onassaulting us until they told us that I was - they told us that I was the onewho was involved more than the others because I knew where Steve was. So theysort of separated us. They charged the other ones with terrorism. On the WednesdayI was assaulted, I couldn't see, my eyes were swollen shut, and two policemenfrom the location came. The other one is Tsilwani, the other one I have forgottenwhat his name is. They asked me where are the other ones. I told them that wewere very scattered, we were at different places. The person who was killedwas the person that we were staying with. His name was George Musi. I said I didn't know anything about anyone who had died.Even my family wanted to see me, but the police had hidden me. Nobody couldsee me until my mother came to see me. She asked me whether I had killed mygrandfather. I denied that. She told me that according to gossip I had killedmy grandfather. I said I don't know anything about that. The murder case neverwent forth. The other cases of terrorism and the rest went forth. Mr Blakeyand Mr Foreman accused me and Ober. The policemen turned all the othercorps Comrades into State witnesses so that they can testify against us. Whenthey got into court they could not go further with the testimony because theysaid it was forged. Then it was a whole lot of confusion. We were in and outof court with the fabricated statements and testimony. The person whom theysaid I had killed was suspected of having killed my grandfather. There was gossipthat I and my friend had killed my grandfather, but according to our knowledgewe left him intact when we went away. From there the case started until it gotto an end. When it went to the end Mr Soman(?) took me to my uncle because mylife wasn't safe in Butsabelo. So I went to my uncle. My uncle was a traditionalhealer so he wasn't staying at home, he used to go in and out of the place.I went back to my mother, and her life wasn't quite well because they used tochase her also. I didn't know what I would do because the police would stillcome searching for me. They wanted to get Steve. They always wanted Steve fromme. Thereafter I went and enlisted some help from the Comrades, only to findthere were no Comrades. All the Comrades that I knew I had lost contact with.Now I was constantly assaulted until my uncle stood up. Thereafter they continued coming, they continued harassingmy mother. At times they would come and search the place, saying they were lookingfor weapons, they were looking for guns, and I would tell them there were noguns there. Even at night they would just come. I would just be taken to anoffice. Even if I hadn't done anything they would just put me in that officewithout eating, without doing anything, just sitting. Thereafter they wouldjust chase me away and say I must go, so they did that continuously quite severaltimes. The policemen that I can remember it was Captain du Plooy, it was NickSwanepoel, it was Lieutenant Terblanche, du Plessis. They were the people whokept on harassing me day in and day out. Even when I got arrested I went toa mental hospital. That mental hospital was in Orange. I stayed for one monthin Orange and I kept on seeing these people who were harassing me. There wasanother nursing staff nurse. At some stage I saw Swanepoel and Mafisa, and thestaff nurse told me that I was wanted, so they tried to change my room. Thatis where I was admitted. I was taken and put into another room because she hadtold me that they would come looking for me. I went to Thaba Nchu. They fetchedme from Thaba Nchu and brought me back. That's where I'll end.
Thank you very much. There are a few questions which I'd liketo ask to make sure I understand your story. First, just to help me, what wasthe name of your grandfather? --- His name was George Musi.
Thank you. Now in 1986, when you and your fellow Comrades triedto leave the country, how old were you then? --- I was 26.
Now, you mentioned that you were first picked up by the soldiers and you were in a soldiers' camp, and then theSpecial Branch came and they took to you a police station in Ladybrand, andthen on to - back to Bloemfontein. That's right? And where you were badly assaultedin the camp, but also at the Fountain. Now, you were charged, were you, underthe Terrorism Act? Were you ever found guilty, or were you acquitted, or whathappened? --- The police were looking for the Comrades. The Comrades when theygot to court they never testified according to what they told the police, orin accordance with what they told the police.
(Inaudible) ... what happened at the end of the trial? Wereyou just dismissed, or did you spend time in gaol? What happened? --- The casejust ended there and they just released us. As we were free we continued beingharassed despite that the case just ended there.
But you were badly harassed, but you were never put back intogaol? --- After we had finished in court we were taken - I was taken to my place.I never went back to prison. I was taken to Rockland.
Now, you were very worried because some people thought thatyou had been responsible for the death of your grandfather. Now, your grandfatherwas the one who helped you, who looked after you, and then you left to try andcross the border. What did the - there was no court case about the death ofyour grandfather? Was there no trial, or nobody accused of killing him? ---No, there was never any court case. It was just talk, common talk, that I killedhim. It was just a rumour, and that's where it ended as a rumour.
(Inaudible) ... did he - was he shot, or was he assaulted, or knifed, or how did he meet his death? --- Myfather was woken up in the morning. Apparently he was shot and doused with petroland set alight.
(Inaudible) ... feel badly because people thought that youwere involved? --- Yes. Even my family, my father's family. I can't get to thembecause they always have this suspicion that I killed my grandfather.
We've heard that - and you've named a number of names. Amongstthe names that you've mentioned were those who harassed you, or arrested you,or were also - were they some who beat you up and gave you electric shocks inprison? --- It's Nick Swanepoel and Terblanche. They were the ones who violatedme, who assaulted me and electrocuted me.
Thank you very much. You've had a very rough time, not onlybecause you were assaulted and beaten up, but I think the dark cloud which hashung over you about your grandfather, and we will do what we can to try andhelp. But my colleagues may have other questions, so I am going to ask if theywould like to ask any more.
MR LYSTER: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Olifant, you,like others who have given statements and who will give testimony tomorrow,have talked about Fountain, where the Security Branch had their headquarters.Was it at Fountain that you were tortured by means of electric shocks and beatings?You did mention another place in Bloemfontein, Ramkraal. --- Yes, from Ladybrandthey took us to Ramkraal. At Ramkraal that's where they just keep people. It'snot a prison, it's not a police station. From there we were taken to Fountain.That is the Special Branch. That's the office of the Special Branch.We were taken there. That's where we were tortured. But they kept on torturingus from Ladybrand up to here. That is the soldiers now who were doing the torturing.
How did they administer electric shocks to you? --- What theydid, they electrocuted my private parts. The other one switched on the light.The other one kept on asking, "Do you want to tell us where Steve is?" I kepton telling them that I didn't know where Steve was. They kept on electrocutingme, telling me that I should tell the truth, until such time that I lost consciousness.They were using these electric shocks. They were also strangling me with a towel.
(Inaudible) ... a towel round your throat, or was it a bagover your head? --- They were actually strangling me. The other one was holdingone end of the towel and the other one was holding the other end of the towel,and each one was pulling to different sides. That's when I lost consciousness.
DR MGOJO: Thank you, Sir. Mr Olifant, it would appearthat what is more hurtful is the accusation that you murdered your grandfather,even more than the tortures you received in those police stations. You justmade one statement that it is suspected that the person who said that you killedyour grandfather is the one who killed him. Can you say something more aboutthat? --- I didn't hear that quite well. Could you kindly repeat it.
In your statement, your narrative, you said that it is suspectedthat the person who said that you killed your /grandfather
grandfather is the one who killed him. Is that correct?
--- That was a rumour that was circulating at that time I wasbeing tortured, but I got it thereafter that the actual person who was involvedwas the person I was related to. He was pointed out, but I didn't have any informationas far as that was concerned. I only was told that later, because when my grandfatherdied I was arrested, I was in custody. I was in custody at that time. We werearrested on the 6th, so I wasn't there when he died. So that person was tellingme - the one who was torturing me told me that he was going to kill me likemy grandfather. At that time I didn't know what he was referring to. I onlydiscovered it later on.
The last question. I am just going around this thing. You havesaid in your statement that some of your Comrades became State witnesses. Itmeans that they were working against you now. Do you think that maybe they arethe ones who spread this rumour that you killed your grandfather? --- I don'tthink it's them.
MR BORAIN: Mr Olifant, we have already expressed oursympathy to you for the treatment you have received. I hope very much that yourfamily will become re-united, that they will accept you back, and that theywill put behind you and behind them this ugly rumour that has caused you somuch pain. We, on our side, will do everything we can to try and see what wecan find out about that, and thank you again for coming, and may God empoweryou. Thank you. --- Thank you, Sir.
MR BORAIN: Mrs Motsaneng, good afternoon. Can you hearme all right?
MRS MOTSANENG: Yes, I can hear you.
MR BORAIN: That's good. Sometimes we have trouble withthe headphones, but today it looks as though we're really doing very well indeed.Thank you so much for coming. You have waited a long time today, and there arestill others who are waiting, so we would like you to tell your story and whathappened - and particularly what happened to your son, Ernest. But before youdo that I would like you to please stand for the taking of the oath.
DIKALEDI ADELAIDE MOTSANENG: (Sworn, States)
MR BORAIN: Thank you very much. Please be seated. Thereare so many from this part of the world who had sons, and sometimes perhapsdaughters I suppose, or fathers, or mothers, who went into exile, and thereseems to be such a mystery surrounding some of their journeys, and indeed theirdeaths. That's part of the story that you are going to tell, and Mr Ilan Laxis going to guide you now. Thank you.
MR LAX: Thank you, Mr Motsaneng, for coming to talkto us this afternoon. Before I take you through the story could you just confirm- your son was born on the 1st of March 1962, is that correct? --- Yes, that'scorrect.
Thank you. Could you tell us a little bit about your familyand where you're from? --- My name is Adelaide Motsaneng from Bloemfontein,Rocklands. My child, Matzifiso Motsaneng, was born in 1962. He was schoolingat Ikalelo in 1980. In the morning we discovered that he was not there. We askedourselves what happened to him. We went to work. After work he was still notthere. We asked his brothers. They have been looking all around, asking thefriends. They didn't know him. Before work in the morning the father reportedto the police that Matzifiso is not there. His boss - his father's boss saidthat he must first go to the police and report. His father went to the policeand report the matter. The police told him to look for his son, and they'llalso help him to do so. Until the other day the police came and told his fatherto go to Lesotho, his son will be there. They made arrangements, passport forhis father to go to Lesotho. Matzifiso was not - the following week we wentthere. Both of us had passports to go and look for him. We went to Lesotho andwe find him there. We talked to him and said he must go back home. Matzifisosaid, "Mum, I am not prepared to go home because I know that the police aregoing to kill me there." He told me to bring him a bag. There's nothing elsehe would like to say. I went to buy a bag. It was on December. I took the bagto Lesotho. He told me that, "Mum, I am going to school." I said, "Matzifiso,you are going to school. You know that your father doesn't like all this situation."He was doing standard eight then. Matzifiso left in December 1980. He didn'teven tell us where he was going. After that we heard nothing from him. We neverreceived any letter. All what was happening was we were always having regularvisits from the police. They were looking for Matzifiso, and they were alsotelling us that they were going to help us to look for him. In 1982 his fatherpassed away. I was left alone. I was expecting anything from Matzifiso. UnfortunatelyI didn't get anything from him. In 1990 some young boys from Angolathey brought me some message from Matzifiso. They told me that they were withMatzifiso in Angola. After that letter in 1990 some boy came to my place. Heactually sent his sister to tell me that Matzifiso said I must phone him. Iasked myself, "How am I going to phone Matzifiso because I don't even have hisnumbers?" She assured me that she's got these numbers, she is going to helpme. She said I must also phone him 11 o'clock, but before 11 o'clock he wasn'tin that particular place. One day, it was on a Saturday, this girl came. Shesaid he is going to help me to give me the numbers that I can be able to contactMatzifiso with. He came and he gave me those numbers. I managed to talk to Matzifiso,and he asked me where his father was. I said, "Matzifiso, your father is notaround," and then he asked me if his father is in town, and I said, "No, heis not available." He asked me another question again, if his father is no longercoming around. I told that his father passed away in 1982. He kept quiet, andthen he said that he is sorry and he'll be coming home soon, but he told methat he's got a car and a house there. Then he told me that when he has soldthe cars and the house he'll be coming back home. After that I never heard anythingfrom him. In 1993, when I was off from work, children told me that - it wason June. They told me that the ANC people were at home. They never came thatday, and even the following day they were never there. On a Friday they came.They find out I was not yet home. They told the children that they must tellme that they were there to tell me that Matzifiso has passed away, and theywere in a hurry, they couldn't wait for me because they were going to Brandfort. The children were leftcrying until I got home. They told me that Mr Malebu was there to tellme that Matzifiso has passed away. I thought that Mr Malebu will come back againto tell me how did this happened. He didn't come the following day. Insteadhe was there on a Monday. He told me that he left a message with the children,but he was in a hurry, he was going to Brandfort to tell the other parents abouttheir children. I said, "Mr Malebu, that was not right. You were supposed towait for me. You were not supposed to leave that kind of a message with thechildren. You were supposed to wait for me and tell me." He told me that Matzifisohad passed away, and they are still making some arrangements for him to comehome. On that particular day when Matzifiso passed away it was the day whenhe was supposed to come to Bloemfontein. I was so surprised. On a Monday hecame. They were still preparing in Angola for the body to come home. On a Tuesdayother ANC people came again to tell me that they are preparing, together withLuanda, for a child to come home. Every day these people were always comingto my place with different stories, and I told them not to come to my placeagain because every day they are telling me all the painful things. Every daythey are coming with different stories. They must only come when the body ishere, because the body was in Gauteng. The other day they'll tell me that thebody's in Namibia. All the stories about Winnie Mandela in Namibia and Luanda.They will tell me that there's a fight in Angola, they won't be able to bringhim home. That happened from the 23rd of June until the 23rd of July. It wasalways all those different stories. That's why I decided to tell them not to come to my place any more. As thedays goes by I asked for those days - I asked for a lift at work. I told myson to go to ANC office in Gauteng to ask what was happening about this body,because I was getting tired of getting their different stories. So one of mysons and my cousin went to Gauteng in ANC offices to ask about this body. Whenthey were in the ANC offices they were told that the body is only coming fromLuanda. They went back home again. They told me all. They told me that the flightis still coming, the body is in Gauteng with the - they didn't know when thebody will becoming to Bloemfontein. On the 17th of July Mr Zandi, who is workingat the mortuary, he came home asking for the photo of my son. He wanted to makesome arrangements for funeral. It was already becoming late. I asked Mr Zandi,"Where is the body of my son?" and then he said, "They are still preparing.If the body has arrived I am going to call the family to go and identify." Onthe 19th or on the 20th Mr Zandi brought a kombi and he told me that he is preparedto take us to the airport to see the body. The aeroplane was coming at 2 o'clockin Rockland. We went to the airport. When we were at the graveyard in Heidedalthe kombi was stopped. The kombi was turned back. The hearse was from the HeidedalCemetery. And then we followed it, and then we all arrived at Zandi's place.The box was taken out of the hearse and it was my son's body. They asked uswhether to open the box or not. We said, "Yes, you have to open it so that wecan see." They tried to open. We were together with the two ANC people. Theother one was called Macdonald. Macdonald was together with the other one, andhe said, "We are not going to wait here. We have to go to the hospital because wehave to see one of our Comrades who had been shot." We were puzzled. How canthese people leave us here? As the family we were left behind. The people atthe mortuary opened the coffin, and they asked me all the signs that I knowon his body and I told them everything, even the marks on his teeth. He wasbadly damaged. They closed the coffin and they took us back home. I asked thepeople, "If a person is your soldier what happens to his belongings?" They saidto me, "Don't worry. The people who are behind are busy taking all his belongingsand they will be brought back home. Don't worry." I was not worried, knowingthat his trousers, his jackets, will be brought back home. Even today they werenever brought to my house. I am now requesting the Commission, I want to know- they arrived in Johannesburg and there was a boy who told me that accordingto the ANC my boy was not supposed to come alone at home. There was supposedto be at least two or three. I want the Commission to investigate how did myson die, because this one who was in Gauteng was called in to come and tellabout Ernest's death. Now, this gentleman in Johannesburg said they were ina house and it was in the evening. Now, this one from Gauteng went out and hediscovered that there was an exchange of words. And when he went back to thehouse he found my son lying on a pool of blood. Now, I want the Commission tofind out happened, how did my son die? This should be investigated. The informationwill be received from the other person in Johannesburg. He told me that theytook him to a clinic and he even paid $1 000,00. They were together with anothergirl. Have you finished what you want to tell us? --- Yes, I am finished.
Can I just ask you a few questions to clarify some aspectsplease? This person who told you about this words and finding your son's body,do you know his name at all -the person from Johannesburg? --- I do not knowhis name, but I think the ANC office in Gauteng will know his name.
Now, together with your son's body there were some documentswhich came back which you've given to us. Do you remember those documents? ---Yes, I have the documents.
We have made copies of those documents. You're aware of that?Now, one of those documents is what appears to be a death certificate in Portuguese.--- Yes. I asked them. "These papers are written in Portuguese. I don't haveany idea." They said, "Keep them safe. Just before the funeral is over we wouldhave changed those into English," but it never happened that they changed thedocuments.
Well, perhaps we can get that done for you. Apart from thestory of an exchange of words and your son being found outside in a pool ofblood, in your statement you also tell us that someone else told you that yourson had a stroke. Is that correct? --- The ANC people told me that my son hadbeen killed because he had stroke. I asked them, "Is it possible that you coulddie of stroke and his bones be broken?" because he had a fracture in his bone.
Now, you told us about - sorry, before I move on, who in theANC - do you know who the people were who told you your son had a stroke? --- It was Mr Malebu who told methat my son died of stroke.
Now, you spoke about two or three people that should have comeback with your son. Who are these people you are talking about? You said hewasn't to come back alone, but he was to come back with two or three other people.--- It's what they told me, that if one is supposed to come home he can't bealone, there should be two of them or three of them.
You don't know what that means? His friends, or his family,or people of that kind? --- I think they are talking about the Comrades.
You don't know whether your son had any - a wife maybe in Angola,or any children there? --- He was staying with a girl and they had a kid.
Have you had any contact with them at all? --- I have onlyphotos. I don't even know her and she doesn't even know me.
I've also been led to believe that the police in Angola wereinvestigating your son's death. Do you know about that? --- The Comrades toldme so. Even Macdonald told me.
(Inaudible) ... had any further reports about that investigation?--- I got only one.
(Inaudible) ... there's nothing coming through. --- I havenever received any report from him, and nobody ever came to me to tell me whathappened to him.
Thank you. We can possibly follow that up for you. Thank you,Chairperson.
MR BORAIN: Thank you very much. Is there anyone else who would like to - yes, Dr Mgojo.
DR MGOJO: Just one question, Ma Adelaide. In your questionjust now you have mentioned - you have made mention of a girl. There's a girlwho gave you Matzifiso's - your son's telephone number when he was out of thecountry, and then there's a girl who stayed with your son, and they had a kidwhen he was outside the country. Is this one girl or two girls? --- The onewho had the telephone number stays here in Bloemfontein, and the one he hasa child with stays in Angola.
This one in Bloemfontein, do you know how she came to knowabout your son's telephone number? --- The Macdonald that I have referred tois the brother to this girl. He is the brother to this girl.
Thank you, Sir.
MR BORAIN: Any further questions? Thank you very much.What we have discovered so many times on this Commission is that the situationin our country, particularly in the 1970s and 80s, was so turbulent, so muchconflict, so much confusion, and so many young people leaving the country, tryingto resist the system at the time. Many of them have come back, and it's very,very hard for people like yourself, whose son was away for such a long time,you hardly ever heard a word, and then you have a promise of him coming backand then he doesn't come, and you wait, and when he does come it's a body ina coffin, and you don't understand what happened to him, and that's perhapsthe hardest thing of all.
And my colleagues have already told you that we are going todo everything we can. That is why we ask the questions. Not because we are inquisitive, it's just that weneed to know so that we can help you. We will try our best, and we will do everythingwe can to assist, and once we've made the inquiries, and when we have some information,we will come back to you.
Thank you very much for coming, and I hope that in the tellingof the story something of the burden that you have been carrying for so longwill be in a small way lifted. Thank you very much.
MR BORAIN: Mrs Jakila, we welcome you, and can I makesure that you can hear me through the earphones.
MRS JAKILA: I can hear you.
MR BORAIN: Loud and clear?
MRS JAKILA: I can hear you clearly.
MR BORAIN: Thank you very much. If you can put the mikeas close to her as possible please. Mrs Jakila, we have been talking this afternoonabout not really knowing sometimes where our loved ones are and what happenedto them. Your situation is about the disappearance of Andries Gorape, and you'regoing to tell us about that in a moment. And it's a long time ago, but I amsure it's very, very painful for you still. Would you please stand to take theoath before we start.
BERNICE JAKILA: (Sworn, States)
MR BORAIN: Thank you very much. Please be seated. Mrs Jakila,my colleague, Mr Dlamini, is going to help you as you tell us the story of yourson's disappearance. Thank you. Mr Dlamini.
MR DLAMINI: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mama Jakila, thankyou for the time that you have accorded us. I would request you to tell us yourstory. It is a painful story, as the Chairperson has said already, but for usto be able to make an attempt in helping you it's only when you try and tellus as clear as possible, giving us all the clues that you think will help usto assist you. Thank you, and may I request you to start telling us about thecircumstances around which your son disappeared, and any other relevant informationthat you think would be of use to the Commission in order to help you. Thankyou. --- In 1964 I moved from home and I went to Gauteng. I left mychildren with their grandmother. As I was in Gauteng I heard that my childrenwere also in Gauteng, but I was staying in Orange Grove, where I was workingas a domestic worker. As they were still there in 1976, when there were riotsor uprisings in 1976 in Soweto, after about a few days Jeremiah - that is hisbrother - came to ask me where Andries was. I said I didn't know anything becauseI was staying at Orange Grove. He told me that nine days has lapsed since hedisappeared. I told him I hadn't seen him. I told him to go back to the locationto try and find out, because I could not go out. We were being arrested in termsof the pass laws. But I went to the police stations in town. I went to JohnVorster Square. When we were still coming they just chased us away. They toldus that they knew what we wanted and they were not interested to assist us.I went to Number Four. They also refused to help me. I went to Modder B Prison.There they tried to look at their documents, as well as files, but they saidthe couldn't locate him. That is when I felt I couldn't get him. I had a hopethat when the others were coming back he was also going to come back. As timewent on I realised that he wasn't coming back. I was now reaching my tether,because I just couldn't get any help. Right now my heart is very sore becauseI don't know what is happening to my son, or what happened to him. I don't haveany more to say.
Thank you, Mrs Jakila. Perhaps a few clarifying questions.When you say that you were hoping that your son was going to come back togetherwith others who were returning to the country, is it because you were underthe impression that he had been on exile? --- Yes, I thought so,because he wasn't the only one who had disappeared from Soweto. Quite a numberof kids had disappeared, so I thought the was part of them, or he was one ofthose who disappeared, but I really didn't have any clarity.
Thank you. Did you have any clues from his friends or peoplewho were close to him as to when they last saw him what he was doing and wherehe was? --- His brother, that is Jeremiah, I urged him to try and find out inSoweto as to what happened to his brother. Then he came back and told me thatthey said since he went to work in the morning, and there's nothing that theyheard from him thereafter. Even today we haven't heard anything, not even theslightest rumour or clue.
From his brother, Jeremiah, was he involved in political activitiesor youth activities? --- I really don't know because I wasn't staying with them.But what I know is that they had just arrived in Gauteng and he was only 16years old, he didn't have a pass or an identity document.
Thank you, Mr Chairman. Can I hand over to you?
MR BORAIN: Thank you very much. Any other questions?Mr Lax.
MR LAX: Thank you. Mrs Jakila, did your son, Andries,have any nicknames or other names that he might have used which might help usto trace him? --- His nickname was Baba. That's what we affectionately calledhim.
Might he have used a different surname maybe? --- He was usingGorape. Your other son, Jeremiah, where is he at the moment? --- Jeremiahis in Thembisa at the moment.
So our people could maybe speak to him and try and get someinformation from him. --- Yes, but I don't have his full address. I am not reallysure where he stays, but I know where he works.
Perhaps you could give that to our people later if that's possibleplease. Thank you.
MR BORAIN: Thank you, Mrs Jakila. It's 20 years ago.It's very hard to get any information from what you have told us. You are stillin the dark today as you were then, but, you know, it occurred to me once againthat when we had this uprising in 1976, where so many young people went intoexile, or disappeared, or were killed, or were in gaol, and like so many mothersyou, when you heard about the disappearance of your son - it becomes almostlike a refrain, almost like a song. "I went to the prisons, I went to the policestations, I went to the hospitals, I went to the friends, and I couldn't findhim." It's a very sad song that many, many mothers have had to sing, and wefeel deeply for you.
We can't make promises that we can't keep, but we will try.We will try and do whatever we can to see if we can find at least what happenedto that young 16-year-old. Thank you very much for coming, and may God comfortyou in your loneliness. Thank you.
MR BORAIN: Mrs Butsibo, would you please identify yourself.Have you both got the earphones on?
MRS BUTSIBO: I am Paulina Butsibo.
MR BORAIN: Thank you very much. So you must be EsterTsetsi. I hope I'm pronouncing the name correctly. If I am not please forgiveme. The reason why we have asked you to come together is because you both lostyour sons, and they were both killed on the same day in the same event, thesame incident, so we thought it would be helpful to hear your stories together.Mr Lax is going to guide you in a minute, but again it was 1992, after the Presidentwas released from prison, after many people had come back, and it's very tragic- but that is your story, and we'd much prefer to hear from you. Would you bothplease stand together to take the oath.
PAULINA BUTSIBO and ESTER TSETSI: (Sworn, State)
MR BORAIN: Thank you very much. Please be seated. Mr Lax.
MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson. Good afternoon and greetingsto both of you. --- Good afternoon, Sir.
If we could start with Mrs Butsibo first, and just -if youcould tell us a little bit about yourself and about your family, and if youcould just confirm your ... (intervention) --- I'll be very brief, I'll tellyou what I know, because I wasn't staying at home, I was working in Sasol. Onthe 22nd of July, round about 5 o'clock, I got a call from New Vaal. Mymother had phoned my relative's child, and my relative's child was scared tophone me. She waited for her husband to come back, and the husband is workingin New Vaal. When her husband came he is the one who phoned me and said, "Aunt, Grannysays you must come together with the kids." I was working with my daughter.The schools were closed as they are closed right now. Now my granddaughtersand grandsons were with me at work, so I took them with. My husband died in1986. So the children were with me. Now, when I asked how did they expect meto come with the children, what was the matter, what had happened, she toldme that she didn't know what had happened. Then I told my boss. My boss saidI must phone Heilbron and speak to my mother. I phoned Heilbron, I asked tospeak to my mother. My mother came. I asked her as to why she wanted me to bringall the children, what had happened? My mother answered me, she said she isscared to tell me, but I must come home. She told me that Champagne had beenshot on the legs. I said to her she must explain to me. She asked me whetherI was strong enough. I told her I was strong enough because I had encounteredsuch experiences before. Then she told me that my son had died. I couldn't finishspeaking. The phone fell down and I collapsed. My boss or madam picked up thephone. She gave me some cold water to drink and she took the phone, she triedto phone my daughter, who was working on the Third Street at Vaalbank. She phonedMrs Kelly to let my daughter know that her brother had died. When I regainedmy consciousness I found that my daughter was there already with the two childrenwho had visited us, as well as her madam was there. They phoned - my boss phonedmy husband. Round about half past six they came back from work. (Pause)
As soon as you're feeling better we can continue. --- WhenI regained consciousness I discovered that my daughter as well as her madam and my grandchildren were there.It was quite a tale in the street where I was working. She came with her madam,who was comforting her, as well as the children. Now they were going to takeus in a kombi and bring us to Heilbron. When we got to Heilbron, that was mydaughter and the grandchildren, we arrived at night, we discovered that therewere no taxis, there was absolutely no transport, and I met another gentlemanthat I know from the NCD. Then he took us and he gave us a lift to our place.On the morning of the 23rd I woke up together with my mother. We went to lookor find out where Champagne - that is my son - where did he die. I got a poolof blood there where he had fallen, where he had died. The blood had alreadydried. I took a shovel and I took this blood and put it in a plastic. I tookit with. Round about 10 o'clock I took my daughter, as well as her aunt. Wewent to the police station to see the deceased. When we got to Mapetla we sawComrades. They blocked us, they said we shouldn't go there alone because theAfrikaners were angry in the town, so we wouldn't be able to get into the town.So we went to Mr Mabena's place. Mr Mabena promised to take his car and accompanyus to the police station. We went to Mr Mabena's place. We stayed, we waitedfor each other. From there they gave us a lift to the police station. When wegot to the police station I got that my son had died. He was bleeding throughthe nose as well as the mouth. I will end there momentarily. Now the witnessis Mzimbi Moloi, but he hasn't come.
This witness you talk about, is that a person who actuallysaw what happened to your son? --- I was at work. I just heard that they were together, that is Mzimbiand my son.
How old was your son? When was he born? --- When he died hewas 25 years old. He was born in 1968 on the 5th of May.
Thank you. Have you receive any documentation with regard toyour son's death, any death certificate, or do you know of any cases that mighthave happened? --- What I got was a death certificate. I do have it. I got it.In 1993, on the 23rd of February, I got a letter which said I must go to court.They also phoned me and asked me whether I had got the letter. My boss releasedme so that I could attend to this matter. I told her that on the 23rd of FebruaryI am supposed to be in court with regard to my son's death. I went to the court.Our names were called, but nothing happened. Even the person who shot my son,that is Ronnie Mudikwe, there's nothing that he said.
(Inaudible) ... was this? --- That was in Heilbron.
Since then have you heard anything more about the case? ---There is nothing I ever heard thereafter. Up til today I know absolutely nothing.
(Inaudible) ... will look into that and be able to try andget back to you with what actually happened about that case. Chairperson, justfor a moment, with your guidance, should we proceed with the other statementbefore we ask questions, or do you think we should ask questions at this stage?I will just wait for your instructions.
MR BORAIN: I think it would be more helpful to the witnesses to continue and then have the questions afterwards.It's a very painful thing this. And also we might be able to get a little moreinformation and save duplication. Thank you.
MR LAX: Thank you. If we could turn to you now, Mrs Tsetsi.If you could tell us firstly about your son, Kipi. How old was he when thisevent happened? --- He was 14 years old when this happened. It was 12 o'clockin the afternoon. He was just playing outside. He said he was scared to roamaround the location because the soldiers were... (incomplete - end of Side B,Tape 4) ... the other street. I got a car on that street. I asked that person,the driver, to give me a lift and take me to the hospital. We got to a mainroad, where we met people from the Civic Association. They were coming fromthe court and they were in a kombi. They said to me, "There is my son," andthey told me that my son had been taken to Mapetla. That's another location.They gave me a lift. I thought I was going mad a that time. I didn't know whatwas happened. When we got to Mapetla we found that there were police cars aswell as police Casspirs. They took me there. When we got there they said - theComrades requested the soldiers to disclose the whereabouts of my son. Theysaid they didn't know the whereabouts of my son. Thereafter they said the carhad turned at Izulu Street. By that time we tried to follow it. Then they said,"No, there it is. It's speeding up, it's going towards town." Then they putme again in the kombi, they said, "We must follow these people." We followedthem. All of a sudden they disappeared. Then we rushed off to the hospital.When we got to the hospital, as we were crossing the railway station just approaching the hospital,we saw an ambulance flicking its little red light. When we got to the hospitalI asked the ambulance drivers as to where my son was. I don't know who startedby telling me that my son was in Kroonstad, but there was a group of people.I asked them, "How could my son be in Kroonstad within five minutes?" They toldme to go back home, and I was a little bit mixed up because I didn't know whatwas happening. They took me, they put me into the kombi, they directed me togo home. When I got home I sat there, and my mother asked me where my son was.I told her that they had told me he's in Kroonstad. I sat outside wondering.Now I was totally - I didn't know what to do because I didn't know what washappening. Then my mother said to me I must just wait and see. Nobody showedup except for a young girl whose name was Busisiwe.
(Inaudible) ... please take your time. (Pause) --- These childrencame. They had brought my son's T-shirt. It was soaked with blood. I took theT-shirt and asked, "Where is my son when my T-shirt is like this? How is he?"Then they said a policeman shot him. I took the T-shirt and soaked it in water.I lifted the T-shirt up and I saw quite a number of holes in the T-shirt. ThenI started to wonder how is my child if a T-shirt can be so full of holes. Iwent to sleep. Round about 7 o'clock in the evening I woke up and went to anothermember of the Civic Association. When I got to him I said to Mr Ndio, "Whereis my child?" He told me that we were going to try and hire the car and go toKroonstad. Approximately at 9 o'clock I saw the kombi. They said I mustgo to Kroonstad. I said they must take my sister as well as my other son, because I wasn't able to go. Then they went to Kroonstad.As we were sitting until 3 o'clock, at 3 o'clock they came back. They lookedat me. Each and every one of them just looked at me. Then I asked, "Is he dead?"They said, "Yes." I asked whether he was in Kroonstad. They said no, he wasn'tat Kroonstad, they said he was in Heilbron. I asked them how did they know thathe was in Heilbron. They said the Civic Association members phoned to try andfind out where my son was, so they went to Bloemfontein. They actually threatenedthe police. They told them that, "If we don't get him in Bloemfontein you aregoing to be in trouble." When they got there we didn't know what to do, we juststayed for the whole morning until dawn. I couldn't sleep. I was told to goto the police station to go and report that my child had died or had been killed.I went to the police station. There was a man who was working at the mortuary.He was also expecting me. When I got there they pulled my child's corpse. Istood there in silence and I looked at my son. He had a lot of holes in hisbody. Blood had seeped out of his back. He wasn't even wearing a T-shirt. Thisgentleman asked me whether I was satisfied, I had positively identified my son.I said yes. My sister said she wanted to see if it really was him. Then shewanted to find out about post-mortems, as to where they should be taken fora post-mortem. She was told that they were being taken to Gauteng for a post-mortem.My sister told them that they must know that we are also going to take him toa pathologist, who was going to try and find out the cause of death. They toldus that we would get the corpses on a Thursday. They took the corpses. The corpses came back. We buried them. From there we stayed until1993. That's only then that we were told about our children. They told me thatmy child had died due to loss of blood. That was all they could tell me aboutmy son.
Are you finished, Mama, for now? Can I just confirm somethingwith you? You received a letter to come to court to an inquest hearing. Do youremember that? --- Yes, I did get the letter.
Did you actually go to court? --- Yes, I did go to court.
What happened there? --- When I got to the court we sat there.We were read a Bible, a very big Bible by the Magistrate. From there he toldme that my child had died. He told me that he had lost blood. That's all thathe told me.
Do you remember when - what date that was that you went tocourt by any chance? --- It was on the 23rd in 1993.
Thank you. This person that you spoke about as a witness, BusisiweMoloi, is that the Busisiwe you're talking about? --- Yes, it is the Busisiwethat I have been talking about, Busisiwe Moloi.
And do you know where we could find her if we wanted to getsome information from her? --- She stays in Heilbron, but she ran away becauseshe was scared to come and testify. I did let her know that I was going to comeand testify, but she never turned up.
Do you know of any other possible witnesses we could talk to?--- I don't know of any other people. Busisiwe knows those people.
Thank you. Have you received a death certificate in relation to your son's death? --- Yes, I did get the deathcertificate.
And you've just confirmed for us that he was at Heilbron Hospitalwhere he was treated and where he died. --- Yes.
Thank you, Chairperson. Thank you, Mrs Tsetsi.
MR BORAIN: Thank you. Anyone else? Yes, Mr Dlamini.
MR DLAMINI: Thank you, Mr Chair. Also under the samepoint of witnesses, according to Mrs Butsibo's statement there is a name ofFosewa Mputhi that is mentioned. Can he be one of the witnesses who could helpus in investigating? --- Yes, he is a witness.
Do you know his address where we can contact him in case weneed to talk to him? --- I am not really sure about his address, but I believethat the person who was taking the statement took all the particulars of thewitness.
One more question to Mrs Tsetsi. It's of concern that yourson reportedly died of excessive bleeding, and when one looks at the times asrecorded in the statement, between the time that the incident took place whenhe was shot and the time that he actually got to hospital, can I confirm thosetimes, because it looks an unusually big gap. What time was he shot roughly?--- He was shot at about half past 12. Then he went to the hospital at approximatelyone - approximately one.
So he was not shot in the morning? --- No, he wasn't shot inthe morning. He was shot during the day.
Thank you, Mr Chairman, I was concerned because according tothe statement he is reported to have been shot in the morning, and only to be admitted at half past one.Thank you.
DR MGOJO: Chairperson, some of the questions have beenarticulated by Brother Mdu Dlamini, but I just want to check whether maybe it'smy hearing which was wrong. Paulina mentioned one of the witnesses as MzimbiMoloi. Is there any person like that, or maybe I didn't understand what ...(inaudible) --- Yes, that is true, it is Mzimbi Moloi.
Is there any reason why in your statement you didn't writehim as a witness, because in your document here you wrote as a witness FosewaMputhi? --- I do not know of any Fosewa Mputhi. I know Mzimbi Moloi. On the13th when the Truth Commission was in Heilbron Mputhi was there.
(Inaudible) ... correct this document so that we put the rightwitness. Thank you.
MRS GCABASHE: Mrs Butsibo, according to your statementyou talked about Mr Mapena. How is Mr Mapena involved in here? --- Mr Mapenawas a Comrade. He is the one who was helping us to run up and down, go to thepolice stations to try and find out what happened.
Thank you.
MR LYSTER: Either of the two witnesses could answerthis one. You said that at that time there was shooting, the soldiers were shootingin the townships. Do you know what was going on at the time in the township?Why were there soldiers there and why were they shooting at people? --- At thattime there wasn't much. It was just the Sasol students. Now all the Comrades were trying to sort out
their matters, their organisation's matters. They had beenarrested. Now we don't know who called the Casspir from Harrismith. They justcame and shot, but there wasn't any altercation. There was absolutely nothingthat - the policeman said they were stoning his house, but that's unbelievablebecause it was just a quiet march. Our children were killed by the Heilbronpolice. That soldier made a mistake of taking him around the location. That'show he lost blood or bled excessively.
You think that he was shot, and then he was put in the Hippoand they travelled around with him while he was still alive in the Hippo forsome time, and only after some time they took him to the hospital. --- Yes,that's what I said exactly.
And you said that when you examined his body, when you identifiedhis body, it was evident that it had been rolling around in the Hippo becauseit was very, very dirty. Is that correct? --- Yes, I said that.
Now, this policeman, Shidiso Hlongwane, do you know where heis? Or is he a soldier or a policeman? A policeman. --- It's a policeman. Idon't know where he disappeared, because he is no long working in Heilbron.I don't see him any more.
And was it Busisiwe Moloi who told you that the name of thepoliceman who shot these two boys, your sons, was Hlongwane? --- Yes, she isthe one who told us, as well as Feddington saw him.
(Inaudible) ... Busisiwe Moloi the same person as Mzimbi Moloi,or are they two different people? --- No, they are different. It's two separatepersons. And the death certificate, what does that read as
the cause of death? There's no death certificate, is there?--- No, the Magistrate told me by word of mouth. I didn't get any death certificate.
Thank you very much.
MR BORAIN: It's not easy to find words after listeningto the story. It's tragic when a young man is killed, and possibly even moretragic when it's a 14-year-old boy who probably was just shot in the crossfirein a time of conflict. We heard that you would like some tombstones to be putto commemorate the deaths of your sons, and perhaps even a creche in memoryof perhaps your son, and other young people who were killed. We will certainlytake that message to the right people and see what we can do. Nothing can bringyour sons back, but we are grateful that we are now living in a time where itis less likely that this will happen again, and one of the reasons why we havethis Truth and Reconciliation Commission is to remind all of us of the heavy,heavy cost and the heavy price that we have had to pay, and to remind us thatwe must work together so that it never happens again.
I hope that just by virtue that you are sitting together, thatyou are mothers united in a common loss, that this will be of some strengthto you, and that so many other mothers and so many other families together willhelp to build a new South Africa, so that young boys and young men will neverdie in vain again.
Thank you very much indeed for coming.
MR BORAIN: Good afternoon, Mr Marais. You can hear meall right?
MR MARAIS: Yes, I can hear you.
MR BORAIN: Tell me, who is the lady who is sitting withyou?
MR MARAIS: This is my mother.
MR BORAIN: We are very, very glad to welcome you also,very glad to see you. Now, you've have a very long wait, and it's long in theafternoon, and you are the last witness, but your story is as important as everybodyelse's, and you're going to tell us about what happened to you. Not about someoneelse, but about what happened to you, particularly at the time when you weredetained and also tortured. But before you do so I'd be grateful if you, MrMarais, would please stand for the oath.
EZEKIEL MATSIDISO MARAIS: (Sworn, States)
MR BORAIN: Thank you very much. Will you be seated please.My colleague, Mrs Gcabashe, is going to lead you and assist you in the tellingof your own story, and I am going to hand over to her now. Thank you.
MRS GCABASHE: I greet you, Matsidiso. Mr Chairpersonhas already said that you've been waiting since this morning to appear beforethe Commission. I want to thank you for the patience. I want to thank you forwaiting to come and appear here so that we can all know the truth of what happenedto you. Is your mother going to help you as you relate your story? --- Yes,I am going to say a few words, and she will also add something.
Is it fine if I call you Matsidiso? Tell us briefly where doyou stay, where do you come from, who is your family? --- I stay in Bathu location, a section called Fourand Six, but I use the Rockland address where I am staying. I live in a shackclose to Mangawung School, but I actually come from Rockland.
You said ... (incomplete) --- My home is in Rockland,
There is something - you've just said now you live in Mangawung.Can you please elaborate? --- I erected a shack close to the school in a ground.Yes, I have two places where I stay, but it's two years now that I have beenstaying at Four and Six.
You are here to tell us about the torture at the Fountain SecurityBranch. --- Yes, that's right.
I have a question that I would like to ask you. You said youjoined the ANC in 1976. --- It was around 1977 when I joined.
What happened then in 1980? --- In 1980 I was arrested. Itwas '79 when I remember well. The schools were closing on that day. I wantedto say we were closing the shops down because we wanted to mourn for the June16 day. The police arrested us. We've already closed down all the shops aroundMangawung. I think it was the last shop that we were supposed to go to, andthe owner of that shop called the police. Very close to the hostel the policecame and they arrested us. They asked us what have we done to the shop owners,why do we tell people to close down their shops? I intimidated that gentleman.I said, "What have we said to you?" He said, "You told me to close down ourshops." They took us to Fountain Security Branch, and on our way a black policemenslapped one of the people who were arrested, and he used his elbow to press him against the seat. He left him and then he lookedat me. He also slapped me. I just looked at him. We were now getting into thetown. He was now talking nicely to us, and he asked us what do we want to bein the future. And then I can't remember what answer did we give him. When wearrived at Fountain Security Branch we parked on the other side, and the otherside was Fountain Security Branch. This hefty man was holding me and I was juston my tiptoes. When we got into the building Hendrik Prinsloo came in, and hesaid to me he thinks he knows me. And he quickly grabbed one of the Comrades,or one of the people who was in our company, he started assaulting him. He hithim against the wall. He even used his fists.
Matsidiso, I want to take you back. You said the Amabutho attackedyou. Can you please tell us who do you refer to when you say Amabutho? --- Thefirst time when the Amabutho attacked me it was in 1986. I was from the ANCtraining.
Who are these Amabutho? --- These were the police under theleadership of Mayor Matobisa.
Thank you. You say you've been in gaol for six months. ---No, I was arrested because - can you please repeat that question. No, the ANCComrades arrested me. He was an MK member.
You said to us you were injured. Did you go to the doctor?Did you go to the doctor because you were injured? --- Are you referring tothe attacks by the Amabutho? Yes, I went to Philonomi Hospital. I only wokeup at Philonomi Hospital. I don't know who took me to the hospital. These peoplewho assaulted me, they did all
this at ... (inaudible) ... they had a police dog with them.
Can I please take you back once more. Do you know the nameof the doctor who examined you? --- No, I don't know the doctor's name, butI think the files are still there.
Now, the name of the hospital you went to? --- I went to PhilonomiHospital.
Do you have any record that will tell us that you've been admittedto the s hospital? If we want to know further about your stay in hospital shallwe get any document? --- No, I don't have any document with me, but there isinformation. Even at the hospital I saw the policemen who tortured me, togetherwith Gerrard who used to search my home. I wanted to run away, but another girltook me back to the bed.
Matsidiso, we want to thank you. We have listened to the wayin which you were tortured and we feel very sorry. You said to us you even wentto the hospital to see the doctor. We will try to find out from the doctor whatkind of help can we give you. Are you still under medication? --- No, not atthis stage.
Are you employed? --- No, I was expelled in 1980.
Thank you very much, Matsidiso. I will now take everythingback to the Chairman. --- I think I didn't mention most of the things that Iwanted to say. I was told that some of the things I will come and say beforethe Commission. The torture that they did to me I didn't talk about. I thinkthe people who tortured me were from the Inkatha, because they were speakinga different language. Thank you very much. We will try to find out from the hospitalwhat happened.
MR LYSTER: Mr Marais, you said that there were threeseparate occasions where you were tortured or assaulted. One was in 1979. Thatwas when you were taken to the Fountain Security Branch headquarters. Againin 1980 you were taken to the Fountain Security Branch headquarters, and againin 1991 when you were attacked or assaulted at your home by the Amabutho. Isthat correct? --- When the Amabutho assaulted me it was in 1990.
But is it correct that you were taken in 1979 to Fountain SecurityBranch and you were tortured there, and again in 1980? --- Yes, that's true.
Do you want to just tell us briefly the manner in which theytortured you in 1979? --- How did they torture you? You said that you were takenthere with a colleague or a friend of yours, and the policeman slapped you inthe car, and then at the Fountain Security Branch it was a policeman by thename of Prinsloo, was it, who started assaulting your friend. Can you tell uswhat they did to you? --- The first day when they picked me up they torturedme. They had a warrant of arrest at first, and the other one who was interrogatingme slapped me. He was busy interrogating me and I didn't pay attention, I waslooking outside. When I was still looking outside he slapped me again, and hetook out his gun, he pointed it at me. And then I paid full attention. Therewas one policeman who was passing by, and then he was called in and he was shownthis letter. And then I asked this friend of mine from Gauteng what this letter was all about, because we've been fighting the whites in thoseyears about the system of education that was in place. And it was difficultfor me to find out the real reason for me being in the cell. Apparently thereis something that I have written in the letter that led to my arrest. Now Gerrardwas hitting me on my chest. And the letter further stated that the whites havebeen oppressing us for quite a long time, and at a later stage they were joinedby our brothers now, who were now engaging themselves in the evil deeds of thepolice. I think those words were very uncomfortable for him. And then he handcuffedme and they also tied my feet, and he made me lie on the sofa, and he used theelectric shocks on my ears and he electrocuted me. I think during that timeMrs Mandela was in Brandfort. I couldn't stand for two minutes. I shook,and ultimately I fell. I shifted from the drawers that were close to me untilto the next wall. He took out his stick and he continually hit me with this.He was still interrogating me, and I was giving him answers. "There is nothingI know, there is nothing I know." I must say that Sivonelo School had been burntdown, and I didn't know what the school had been burned because I was in Gauteng,and when I came back I was told that the police are looking for me because Itook part in the burning of the school. When we arrived here I personally wentto Fountain, and this black policeman was attending me. Now, when I was torturedthis white policeman got out of the room, and when he got out I felt that myhands were sore. They were as if they were chopped. He came back in. He wasangry with me. He used this stick furthermore to hit me, and I told him, "Sir,I have an operation, I have an appendix operation." When I saidthat to him I was really giving him the freedom to do whatever he wanted todo. He left me. They put me into the Volkswagen and then I was transferred toBrandfort. I stayed in Brandfort for a week and then he came back. He took meout of the cell and he gave me a cool drink. The cell was situated very closeto the charge office. He wanted me to confirm what he heard from other people.I said to him, "I don't want to endorse anything that those people have said.I think we will talk in the court of law." And he said to me, "I know you arescared of talking. I will tell you what to write on the paper." I agreed withwhat he was saying, and he gave me a pen and I started writing. He took me,together with an interpreter, into the Magistrate's office and I stated my case,and then I told them that there is nothing that I know. I know nothing of whathappened. And I told the Magistrate that this person had been torturing me,and he forced me to write this statement. That is why I wrote this. And thenwe went out with two different statements now. It was a corridor with a dooron the side, and he pulled me into this room. He said, "What did you say tothe Magistrate?" and I heard him slapping me. It's since then I cannot use myear. For three years I have been hearing funny sounds with my ear, but aftersome time it was quite well. There was another policeman who came to me. Hisname was Hendrik and he was together with the interpreter, and we went intothe office and we put on our clothes. When I realised we were in the veld. Thetar road was far, and then we were tipped into the veld. They interrogated me.I was fastened to the car. They said to me, "You don't want to speak the truth. Now go," and they releasedme. They said, "Go to Botswana." They wanted me to go deep into the veld, butI refused, I said to them, "No, I am not going to do this," because I knew whathappened in different places like in Gauteng, and we have been reading in newspapersthat a person was on his way to the shop with his girlfriend and then he wasshot dead, and then they took the girl with them. So I thought they were goingto do the same with me, and I refused, I didn't go into the veld. They saidto me, "You are going to die and rot in that veld. It was during those timeswhen Dr Matata Mohlana and them were in the leadership.
(Inaudible) ... can you take us now to 1980. You said that... (incomplete - end of Side A, Tape 4) ... it said that there was rent boycottin your area, and that you were arrested for that and taken to Fountain, andyou were tortured and you got injuries to your neck. Is that correct? --- In1980 we were busy closing the shops down when we got arrested, and I was takento Fountain Security Branch. There were four of us. When we arrived in Fountainthe other police said he knows me. It was Hendrik. And the others went back.He looked at me and he said, "It's you again." It was the second time now thatI had been arrested. And he was pulling me with my pairs of trousers in hisoffice. He was slippering (sic) me on the floor. When we got into hisoffice he trampled on me as much as he could. I was rolling on the floor. Hecontinually trampled on me, and he said, "I am going to kill you." And he saidto me, "You are a kaffir," and I said to them, "What do you want?" He askedme what is it that we wanted, and I told him about the education that was in poor conditions, and I told him that we didn't findanything wrong with closing down the shops. And he continually told me thatI was a bad kaffir. He had already trampled me enough on my neck. He was hefty,he was well built, and I was a young and upcoming youngster, and my neck hadbeen giving me trouble since that day until now.
(Inaudible) ... you were assaulted at your house by the Amabuthoin 1991. Is that correct? --- 1991?
1991 you said ... (inaudible) --- Yes, I think it was in 1990.I didn't mention the ANC trial. It was in 1985. But I think I indicated thatin my statement.
(Inaudible) ... you mentioned that in your statement. If youcan just finally tell us about how you were assaulted by the Amabutho, and thenwe'll ask your mother if she has anything that she wishes to say or to confirm.In 1990 or 1991 you were beaten, you said, by the Amabutho, is that correct?--- No, I didn't mention anything about the ANC. I was poisoned, I even wentto the doctor, and my ankles were swollen. They were supposed to interrogateme, but when we were on our way they discovered that I couldn't walk, and theyasked me, "Why are you walking so slowly?" I told them that my legs were swollen.I didn't want to tell him what happened because I knew that I was going to revengeat one stage, and they took me to a doctor called Dr Oosthuizen. I tried totell this doctor everything, but he didn't want to listen to me. The policemenalso encouraged me to tell the doctor what happened. They were begging me toeat, and the Fountain Police wanted to know why was I not eating, and I wouldonly keep quiet and ignore them. I didn't realise that they were poisoning me. At night when Iam asleep I would feel my head going round. I would as if there is a persontrampling on me. At times I would even feel like, you know, a train is justdriving on my body. And I was told that the food that I ate affected me. Theytook me to the doctor then, and the doctor gave me an ointment and some fewtablets. They did not give me tablets. I went to Burke Road Police Station,and that's where they gave me the tablets. I didn't trust this policeman anymore when he called me. You know, I was suspicious, and I thought he was goingto tell me something funny and I didn't give heed to what he was saying. I tookthe tablets and I swallowed them. I pretended as if I swallowed them, but Iput them under my tongue. And then I showed them to one of my friends. I said,"Look, here are their tablets. I am not going to drink them," and truly thatwas the end of it.
(Inaudible) ... about all those things, and we have got allthat information in your statement, which you've now confirmed. Thank you verymuch for sharing all these terrible things with us. This is something that'sbeen happening to you since 1979, it's over 15 years, and we understand thepain and suffering that you have experienced. Is there anything that your motherwould like to - just to confirm now? She is on the stage with you. Is there- she hasn't made a statement, and we don't normally allow people to give evidenceunless they have made a statement, but if there is something important and briefthat she would like to say ... do you want to say that? She will have to besworn in first.
MR BORAIN: Could I ask you, Mrs Marais, do you wantto add anything at all? Do you wish to add anything?
MRS MARAIS: I just wanted to indicate that the conditionyou see him in ... (intervention)
MR BORAIN: ... interrupt you, but I cannot hear youunless you have taken an oath, so would you please stand to take the oath.
MRS MARAIS: (Sworn, States)
MR BORAIN: Mrs Marais, we have heard at some lengthfrom you son, and if there is something new that you have to say please tellus now. --- I just want to say that I was very hurt, because when my son wasreleased from the cells he wasn't himself any more. I was so hurt. Why did theytake his penis and electrocuted him? He was a man and they had to do that. Whydid they do that with him? As you see him now he is not the child I gave birthto. I cannot understand him any more. He doesn't understand whether he is livingor he is dead. And the police did this to him because they continually pickedhim up at home, and they would torture him, they would assault him. They havereally destroyed the life of my child. He can hardly do anything. He stays withthe chickens and the doves and pigeons in the house. My house is so dirty. Hedoesn't want to live with people. He prefers to live with these birds that Ihave mentioned. That is why he doesn't stay with us. I thank you. There is nothingmore that I would say to you.
Thank you for that. I just have to ask you one question. Yourson, is he receiving any medical treatment at all at the moment, either at aclinic or at a hospital or from a doctor? --- No, he refused to go to the doctors because he doesn't want any white person. He goes tothe hospital. The day he feels he has to go to the hospital he just goes.
I can understand that having suffered as much as he has, andhaving these dreadful experiences, that he would be very suspicious of anybody,of any person, and perhaps that's why he finds it difficult, and we may be ableto see what we can do, to talk to the local medical people to find out if wecan offer some help.
Now, I want to thank Ezekiel, and thank you as his mother,for coming. So much of what has happened has destroyed so much in our country,and it's particularly tragic when we see young people who have been so badlydamaged. We will do everything we can. We have listened very carefully to thoseexperiences, and in particular we will discuss the situation with the medicalpeople here in Bloemfontein and see what help we can do. Thank you again verymuch indeed for coming. God be with you. --- Thank you very much, Sir.
