CHAIRPERSON: We will ask Vuyani Mngaza to come forward.
ADV SANDI: Number.
CHAIRPERSON: Number ten in our list. Welcome Vuyani Mngaza. You will be
sworn in by Reverend Xundu so that you can give your evidence under oath.
VUYANI MNGAZA: (Duly sworn in, states).
REV XUNDU: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sandi will lead you in evidence.
ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Mngaza, your story goes back a long
way, from 1960, actually 1963, being tortured, being ill-treated, you lost your
business. We were in great debt and so forth. Let us start as thus, Mr Mngaza. You
were a PAC member in 1963?
MR MNGAZA: Yes Sir.
ADV SANDI: Arrested because you were active in the PAC military wing?
MR MNGAZA: Yes.
ADV SANDI: Bhoqo, was it a PAC wing?
MR MNGAZA: Yes.
ADV SANDI: Let me hand over to you. Could you tell us your story without
interruption.
MR MNGAZA: Thank you Mr Chairperson. In our, I will start with the 1963
incident so that we can hurry. I was arrested on the eighth of April 1963, arrested in
the morning at two am, having completed a task force function in the Transkei. We
were all over Transkei, but the Security Branch officers were following us. We got to
my business place. Some Comrades were left behind.
ADV SANDI: Are you talking about your garage?
MR MNGAZA: Yes, Pan African Motors at that time. My duty, especially in
underground operations of the PAC, I had to co-ordinate our activities from Maseru
to Cape Town. As I had a business they would send the Comrades to me. I would
help them as much as I could in whatever they needed. We did a lot of work in my
garage, making firearms, because as PAC members we were going to start a
revolution in 1963.
ADV SANDI: Without disturbing you, what kind of weapons are you talking about?
MR MNGAZA: Pangas and weapons that were going to damage the Security Forces,
because we were going to fight them. We wanted to liberate our people from the
oppression of the Boers. We did our work. We had to co-ordinate sending weapons
all over.
ADV SANDI: You were arrested in that process?
MR MNGAZA: Donald Card came at two am. He arrested me from home. Some,
he missed some Comrades that were in my garage sleeping.
ADV SANDI: Is this the time you ended up in a seven month detention in
Cambridge?
MR MNGAZA: Yes.
ADV SANDI: In those seven months did you go before the Court of Law?
MR MNGAZA: Yes, twice actually. They kept on postponing the case until we were
granted bail. There were other Comrades that I had worked with. They divided us. I
was in solitary confinement. My, the charge was then withdrawn.
ADV SANDI: You were re-arrested. When was that?
MR MNGAZA: After my case had been withdrawn I was led by Card to a 90 day
detention. The Law had just been established.
ADV SANDI: Are you saying that you were the first victims of the 90 day detention?
MR MNGAZA: Yes, we were the first victims.
ADV SANDI: What happened at the 90 day detention? Could you tell us about the
form of torture you experienced.
MR MNGAZA: After they had taken me from Fleet Street Charge Office I was taken
to the Cambridge Police Station. On the way, it was Sergeant Card who was in the
car. I do not remember the others, but I think Scheepers was there. They asked me to
work with them. They offered me everything including a passport. I said I could not
do that. Nobody was ever a policeman at home. I was not going to be a policeman.
They put me in solitary confinement in Cambridge.
ADV SANDI: How long were you detained Mr Mngaza?
MR MNGAZA: I was in solitary confinement for a week. They would call me in
during that week. They would interrogate me in connection with the work we were
doing. They were not satisfied, because I was not divulging anything. They were not
pleased at all. On the second week I was taken to the Charge Office, taken by Donald
Card together with four other policemen, White policemen. There was a fifth one, a
Black man, Chikila. I was interrogated on that day. Taken to another room in front,
ahead of the interrogation office. They kicked me into the room. I was assaulted on
that day.
ADV SANDI: The doctor you saw whilst in detention, what was his name?
MR MNGAZA: Before I was taken to the doctor, because this doctor I was taken to
was from Queenstown Mental Hospital. After I had been beaten up I was charged at
Fleet Street. They said that I had hit policemen. What is strange, the Magistrate never
asked why my face was so swollen up. He just committed me to Dubangeni Mental
Hospital in Queenstown.
ADV SANDI: Had you made a request to the Magistrate that you want to be sent to
Dubangeni?
MR MNGAZA: No, they just said that the police said that because I was in solitary
confinement I went insane and I fought the police. Therefore, they said that I was not
mentally stable, I was deranged, this is why I was supposed to have fought the
policemen. I was examined by a doctor, I was not examined by a doctor, I was just
sent to Dubangeni Hospital for 28 days. It is there that I was examined by a doctor
from the mental hospital.
ADV SANDI: Who was the Magistrate presiding?
MR MNGAZA: I did not know him even then, but I remember at the time, that
should be available at, in the records.
ADV SANDI: I would like to hear more about this Dubangeni business. You were
sent to this hospital, a hospital for the mentally deranged, because you fought against
the police? You were discharged from Dubangeni. Did you go to any legal
representative?
MR MNGAZA: Before long Dr Robbinson realised that I had been beaten up by the
Boers. He said that he would not make me stay there, because I was clearly not
mentally ill. I had just been beaten by the Boers. They said, he said that they should
leave a security man, because they are not going to keep somebody who is not
deranged. He wrote a report that I had been beaten up already, because he did not see
any, could not detect any mental illness. My attorney, Kannemeyer from
Grahamstown, wrote to the Security Police that I should be taken back to Stutterheim
Prison for detention to complete my detention period. I was taken into a cell with a lot
of lice. I spent two nights there. They took me from there back to Cambridge Police
Station.
ADV SANDI: Did they beat you up again?
MR MNGAZA: No, what happened is they took me again to court and they
withdrew the charges of assault.
ADV SANDI: Did you take any steps claiming, because you had been ill-treated by
the police?
MR MNGAZA: Yes, after the 90 day detention. On the 19th day I was called and
released. I laid a charge opening a civil case, having been harassed and assaulted by
the security. Nothing came of this case, because they were handling it in any case.
ADV SANDI: In 1964 you made a request for a passport to leave the country. Are
you, were you talking about an exit permit?
MR MNGAZA: Yes, I applied for a passport. They refused. I, when I wanted to
find out what the reasons were for the denial they would not disclose them.
ADV SANDI: Then in 1967 you were arrested for sabotage?
MR MNGAZA: Yes, I was arrested again for sabotage, membership of the PAC,
suppression of communism. There were a lot of charges laid, a long list it was. I was
taken to the Supreme Court in Grahamstown.
ADV SANDI: You were in detention for three months
MR MNGAZA: Yes, solitary confinement in Grahamstown.
ADV SANDI: When you appeared in court you were sentenced. What happened?
MR MNGAZA: My case lasted a week. It was supposed to have lasted longer as
there were many charges. However, it collapsed after the first week, because of the
cross-examination made to the chief witnesses. It was evident that lies were told about
me.
ADV SANDI: Therefore you were innocent?
MR MNGAZA: Yes, I was acquitted.
ADV SANDI: After that, you left in 1967?
MR MNGAZA: Yes, I had to get an exit permit, because I could not get a passport.
Fortunately when we were in Grahamstown we smuggled documents to the United
Nations and my name was in the list of South African cases that were on at the time.
The Senegal Government said to the French Embassy in East London to give me a
political asylum in Senegal as I was in the list for the oppressed in South Africa, the
tortured.
ADV SANDI: So you were in Senegal and other countries?
MR MNGAZA: Yes, from there I went to Senegal where my organisation said I must
open an office. From there I went to Nigeria, to Tanzania. From Tanzania I went to
Europe. I stayed in London. I covered the whole of Europe, Iceland and
Scandinavian countries working for the organisation.
ADV SANDI: You came back in 1992 without a wife or children?
MR MNGAZA: Yes, I came back alone. I am still alone. It was difficult to bring
back my family, because I have no place to stay. It is difficult to bring back a family if
you have no place to stay.
ADV SANDI: You have a request about that?
MR MNGAZA: If the Commission could help me with accommodation so that my
family can come back. They cannot come back. Secondly, I do not know if I should
proceed.
ADV SANDI: Yes, you may proceed. Have you applied for a special pension?
MR MNGAZA: That is what I was going to talk about. I have applied for a special
pension last year, but there has been no response. If the Commission could help me
and urge them along. It is my sister only to help me. I do not have transport either.
Secondly, that the Commission could help me, I need to exhume my son's body who
passed away in Botswana working for the organisation. He died in 1992. I need for
him to be buried at home. Fourthly, I think something should be done for freedom
fighters in terms of a heroes acre. Our people are all over the African Continent, some
even in Europe. If they could be exhumed and buried so that people may be able to
see their late family members who had fought for liberation. I think that would help
people if the TRC could help as well as it is quite expensive. It is expensive to exhume
peoples' bodies, but it should be done as a tribute to the fallen heroes.
ADV SANDI: You lost a lot. You lost your business, you lost your family, your
family is all over the world. I am going to, however, hand you over to the Chairperson
now. Maybe he has questions for you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for your story. Mrs Crichton will read a statement
from Mr Card. It is a long statement. I will ask her to hurry. There are a lot of people
still to come. You may step down. Thank you.
MS CRICHTON: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
"I the undersigned, Donald John Card, do hereby state
I am retired, 68 years of age and reside at 5 Avon
Road, Woodleigh, East London. On the 22nd of May
1997 I was handed a document from the Truth and
Reconciliation Commission in terms of Act number 34
of 1995 wherein it is stated that a certain Mr Vuyani
Mngaza was going to testify before the Commission
between the ninth and 12 of June 1997 and was going
to implicate me. I do remember Mr Mngaza as the
only garage owner in Duncan Village during the
1960's.
In 1965 when a man, who was the messenger for the
PAC high command in exile (Lesotho) and the
remaining pockets of PAC members in South Africa
was arrested, it became clear that Mr Mngaza played a
leading role in the activities of the PAC in East
London and, in fact, he was responsible for sending a
woman to Lesotho to assist the PAC. This woman
and Mr Mngaza were involved in the intended attack
and killing of Whites throughout South Africa.
I am not sure whether I or others under me actually
arrested Mr Mngaza, but he was taken into custody
and later charged. At no time was Mr Mngaza
assaulted by me or anyone else in my presence while
he was in custody, but on what occasion I did hear that
Mr Mngaza had acted strangely and was taken to the
doctor for mental observation.
Mr Mngaza was later charged and appeared before the
Supreme Court in Grahamstown before Judge
Kannemeyer. Due to the fact that the court felt that
there was insufficient evidence to corroborate the main
State witness, Mr Mngaza was acquitted. At the trial
Mr Mngaza swore under oath that he was not a
member of the PAC and I know notice in Annexure
EC68/96 that he was a founder member of the Border
region of the PAC. That, of course, says very little for
his integrity, but I suppose he will say that he told lies
to stay out of prison. So, is he lying now for the sake
of money.
With regard to the allegations on Annexure 68/96, I
will deal with them as follows. Number one, I did not
know that there was a Border branch of the PAC in
1950. I believed that it was established after 1957.
Number two, I had no dealings with the arrest of Mr
Mngaza in 1963. In fact, I did not know that he had
been arrested. Number three, I have no knowledge of
Mr Mngaza's detention and release on the 11th of
October 1963. Four, in 1963 I was not a member of
the Security Police nor did I have dealings with Mr
Mngaza then. Five, ...".
I am on point number five of Mr Donald John Card's statement about Mr Vuyani
Mngaza.
"In 1963 I did work with Detective- Sergeant
Scheepers, Detective-Constable Chikila, Constable
Babba Gooysen and Detective-Constable Hans
Mynhardt, but we had nothing to do with Mr Mngaza.
Sixth, I do remember that Mr Mngaza was sent for
mental observation, but I cannot remember for how
long. I do remember that he was declared fit for trial
so do not know whether he was pretending or not.
Seven, I have no knowledge of a civil claim. Eight, the
Attorney-General has nothing to do with civil claims
and neither did the Security Police. These claims are
dealt with between the claimants advocate, the
registrar and the court. So I find Mr Mngaza's
statement very difficult to understand. Nine, I have no
knowledge of an application for a passport by Mr
Mngaza. Ten, to the best of my knowledge, Mr
Mngaza had left this country by 1967 and I do not
know about these charges. 11, If my memory serves
me correctly, our money system in 1967 was in rands
and not in pounds. I also do not know of a further
charge of sabotage in 1967 against Mr Mngaza. 12,
Mr Mngaza was arrested in 1964 or 65 on a minor
charge and was released on R500,00 bail, but when he
was re-arrested on a more serious charge, bail was
opposed and he was kept in custody in East London
and transferred to Grahamstown for trial before the
Supreme Court. 13, The trial before Judge
Kannemeyer was in 1965 and not in 1967. 14, I do
not know the cost of legal fees, but do know that
individuals seldom pay for legal fees when a political
organisation is involved. It is again strange that rands
and not pounds are now quoted. 15, The sale of Pan
African Motors took place sometime after Mr Mngaza
was acquitted and it must have cost a considerable
amount of money to go to Dakar with his whole
family. 16, I did see letters written by Mr Mngaza
from Senegal. 17, I know that the whole family left
with him. 18, I did not know that Mr Mngaza had
returned to South Africa.
I would like to point out that the information supplied
on the Annexure appears to be that of a confused
person and honestly does not make sense to me and
therefore it is very difficult to answer except to say that
Mr Mngaza was not assaulted by me or anyone else in
my presence nor was he badly treated. He did have to
wait some time for his trial, but that was a matter for
the courts and not the police.
Furthermore, I gain the impression that what Mngaza
is seeking is the R2 650,00 which he says he paid for
legal costs. This appears to be a small amount of
money for an attorney and an advocate's attendance at
a Supreme Court hearing in Grahamstown. Mr
Mngaza's stated under oath that he was not a PAC
member, but it is now obvious that he is once again
lying in order to substantiate his claims for costs.
Signed Donald John Card.".
Thank you Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Again, it is very sad that Mr Card is not here personally so that we
can ask him questions according to his statement. It is also sad that he is, he made a
judgement about the confusion of Mr Mngaza. In our eyes we see him as a perfectly
normal person, not a confused person, but we will try and get in touch with Mr Card.
Maybe in Section 29 hearing so that we can get clarity in what is written in his
statement. He imputed bad motives to Mr Mngaza.
We think that we have to close. The report we got concerning electricity is
that this effected the whole Highway area. It will, this will continue and they hope that
if the weather is clear tomorrow our proceedings are going to be normal. If it is not
they are going to request a generator to help us. Tomorrow we have a women hearing
looking at issues which involved women in detention. We have 14 people, were
supposed to give their evidence today. We thought that tomorrow the women hearing
will proceed as planned from half past nine. If we manage to finish in time we will
continue with this hearing tomorrow, but if we have to go through to Friday we will
do that and have our hearing up until 12 on Friday. All the people who are, who were
supposed to testify today, we will meet with them tomorrow, but if we did not finish
we will meet them on Friday. We have to listen to everybody, because this is our last
hearing. We would like people to be patient with us. If we knew that there is this
situation here in Mdantsane we would have brought our own electricity from Cape
Town. It is said that you do not pay electricity here in Mdantsane. Thank you and we
will come tomorrow at half past nine.
1 V MNGAZA
MDANTSANE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
