MS BURTON
Good morning Mr Kroma.
MR KROMA
Good morning ma’am.
MS BURTON
Are you willing to swear the oath - thank you.
SIPHO KROMA Duly sworn states
MS BURTON
Thank you very much, Dr Ramashala will be facilitating your testimony.
DR RAMASHALA
Good morning Mr Kroma.
MR KROMA
Good morning ma’am.
DR RAMASHALA
Chairperson I would like to just observe that Mr Kroma is currently the Mayor in Oudtshoorn.
There - this case is really about a torture that occurred in Uitenhage in the Eastern Cape, but it has been established that the perpetrators that are named were actually based in Oudtshoorn. I will ask Mr Kroma to relate his story in his own words in as detailed a way as possible, starting from the beginning. Not only talking about the torture itself, but also giving contacts with respects to your political organisations your activities, and whatever else was happening in the community, thank you.
MR KROMA
I was part of the Youth Structure in [indistinct] the [indistinct] organisation. In fact in 1986 I was secretary of the organisation. The previous year I was a student in Thobaletu High School in Fort Beaufort. I was not able to - to finish schooling precisely because of my political involvement, involved in the SRC and being organiser of COSAS I had to run away from Ciskei, in fact I had two choices, to stay and continue there and risk - loosing my life there.
I chose to come back home, in ’85 when I came back, I came back in about July. I was started - I started to be involved in the youth. In ’86 I was made secretary of the youth. On the 12th of June a State of Emergency was announced, that evening everyone who was young, who was involved, was picked up. I was fortunate in this sense that my mom Ms Madikane who are sitting here now, she came to wake me up and told me that the police were busy picking up people a few houses from where I was staying. I managed to hide in the wardrobe and one of the police in fact stood leaning against the very same wardrobe that I was in, they were not able to catch me.
Maybe that is one of the things that made them to deal with me when they got me was the fact that the police in Oudtshoorn were never able to catch me, in all the race that were there, I was only detained in Uitenhage and I was detained in Johannesburg.
It was in the early hours of the morning when the police came and they were not able to find me. Me and my brother, [indistinct] and the late Michael Lucas we decided to leave Oudtshoorn. We went to Uitenhage to my aunt who is staying there and we were in Uitenhage for a few months. One morning there was - it was about two o’clock in the morning, we just heard the bang in the door and the window pane was going and kicks and so forth.
In a few minutes the police were in the house, they wanted me firstly. And they were able to get me. And Michael was also in, and Mxolise Madikane in the house my aunt started to ask what was happening. She was the first person to be beaten up and so we were taken outside. Mxolise and Michael were handcuffed and were put in the back seat of the car with their heads between their knees. I was given a taste of what I was going to get. I was thrown on the tar road, and they started jumping on me. There is one Coloured chap, I don’t know him, he is a policeman, he knew a bit of Xhosa, that guy dealt with me, he did his job.
And after they did that, they put me in the boot of the car - it’s a small car, it’s an Nissan X - it’s a very small boot and very-very uncomfortable. The only friends I had in the boot of the car, were four bottles of beer, well in any event I could do nothing to that beers, because I was handcuffed.
And so they drove with us, on the way out of the township Kwanobuhle township, they stopped again. They pulled me out of the boot and the very same show continued - they kicked me, jumping on top of me. Again I went back to my place - the boot and we drove to Church Street, police station is in Church Street in Uitenhage.
When we got there, we were made to sit in front of one of the doors there. And they first took Michael Lucas in, well there was very little that we could hear what was happening inside, the only thing that we could hear was Michael screaming, they dealt with him for about two hours. I was sitting on the other side of the door and [indistinct] on the other side.
They finished with him and they called me in. When I went in, I identified Mngoma he was a security policeman and the late Piet Gouws, I am glad he is dead and also Mnyamana they call him [indistinct] in the township and Kurt Bouman and there was a group of policeman that I obviously don’t know who are from Uitenhage I suppose. And this Coloured chap was amongst them.
When I entered the room, still handcuffed they made me to sit - straightened my legs and they brought the SACP flag and they used the flag to tie my legs. My hands were handcuffed at the back. So they took off the handcuffs and handcuffed me from the front now. They produced a khaki T-shirt - no a khaki shirt, not a T-shirt a khaki shirt with black, green and gold lapels on top. And they said to me that they are going to deal with me with my own belonging, obviously we had the ANC lapels and the SACP flag here.
And they brought up the electric - electric wiring, all ten of my fingers were wired with this thing, the live wire the plastic is of, the one that is covering the wire. And the other one moved right around - around my body. Sergeant Mnyamana task then was to ask me questions, and he - as I was sitting - three of them were sitting on my legs - Piet Gouws is a very big man, he was playing rugby for SWD in the front row, very strong man. He was sitting on my lap, the Coloured chap that I am talking about his task was to beat me up and he - he made sure that he was hurting me.
Time and again he would deal with my private parts, and Mngoma would ask a question, the first [indistinct] of interrogation was trying to link Michael who was with me to a case of somebody who was shot and killed in the township. I think it’s a Mr Blouw if I am not mistaken. They wanted me to admit and agree that Michael said to us that he was responsible for the shooting of Mr Blouw. And in fact it happened up to a position where they wrote down and said that Michael said to us that he was responsible for this and my task then was to sign that statement.
When they finished with this case of Michael - you should understand I was secretary of the youth, the whole township was in turmoil. I was suppose to know of each and every move that is happening in the township as secretary. Each and everything that happened in the past years or so, I was asked to give account. The worst part of it was the fact that I was also involved in the formation of youth structures in George, in Mossel Bay, in Knysna where we helped with the formation of youth structures, that information was with the hand - heads of the police.
So at certain stages I had to give account of events of George and Mossel Bay too. Mngoma’s task was to ask a question, after giving an answer, if he is not satisfied with my explanation, he would give a mandate for them to fire. Firing meant to put on the electric short. They were - the other wire started coming from the hands would pull me right up to my shoulders and this one, would take my whole upper body and I would be shaking like this when they put on the wire.
They continued in that fashion as I was screaming, there is a - there is a freedom song that we usually sang that says:
We are going to destroy your body - the comrades are crying.
Mngoma was singing that song for me and say that you are crying right now, he was singing the very same song. They dealt with me for about two hours and so they left me and then they came to Mxolise.
We were taken to the police cells, we spent a couple of days in the police cells, I was only in my pyjama bottom a vest on top and stokkies, that’s how I spent my time in detention there, not going to wash for all that time until they brought me to Oudtshoorn, in Oudtshoorn I spent a few days also in the police cells in the very same clothing until they took me home.
Then it was the last time that I saw Michael, when I was released from detention and he was charged and ultimately hanged, that was the last time I saw him.
That is how they - they dealt with me, to be more precise is to say that Mngoma’s task was to ask me the questions. Mbondo was the one who was using that khaki T-shirt I was talking about, they would put it in a bucket of water, and tied it around my face, making it impossible for me to breath because the thing was wet. When I breath it [indistinct] in - into my nostrils and then usually got water in, so I could not breath, that was his task.
Gouws because he was tough and strong, was there to keep me down and Kurt Bouman participated in seeing who was able to kick me harder than the other one - that is my story.
DR RAMASHALA
Thank you very much Mr Kroma, I know this may be a little awkward but it’s important for us to document [indistinct] of abuse. You mentioned a statement that they were and I quote - dealing with my private parts. Awkward as it is would you please explain what you meant by it.
MR KROMA
Well what this guy would usually do is to grab at my penis, and my testicles at certain events, and punch me in my private parts and also kick me in my private parts. You see it was - it was difficult for me to cover, because the one would take my hands as I was handcuffed and then he had all the time and space in the world to deal. I was worried because for a couple of months I was non-functional. I thought that I had lost my manhood.
DR RAMASHALA
After they dismissed you, did anything else happen, I mean did they just discharge you - release you and that was it.
MR KROMA
Nothing happened after that except for the fact that during the time when Michael Lucas was - was in court in the Supreme Court in Cape Town, they summoned us to come and give evidence. But precisely because they understood that we - already that time, had got some legal advice to the effect that we were going to be able to go against what is written on the statement, they decided not to call us to give any evidence in any event.
But they were [indistinct] and we went to a holiday in Cape Town for a week and came back. Because was never did anything, we were suppose to have gone to testify, but nothing happened.
DR RAMASHALA
Now at some point during your detention, they made a statement that Michael Lucas had himself made a statement that he killed Mr Blouw, was that in fact true, was he actually forced into making this statement or that was a ploy.
MR KROMA
He was beaten up, he was electrocuted like I was, and I am tempted to say that I doubt to the fact that Michael would have said anything to that [indistinct] without anything. Because what happened there, you were not first asked a question, they let you taste the medicine, so that when they ask you a question you already understand what is going to follow you see and that is - he did that statement under that interrogation.
DR RAMASHALA
And the last question, I know that you came in part to the Commission to ensure that your story is documented, is there anything else that you would like to have the Commission do.
MR KROMA
You see if you have asked me that question a few years ago, I would have asked the Commission to give me just about 30 minutes with each and every of those guys, just 30 minutes, that would be ample enough for me, I would have dealt with them. But maybe now with - maybe also the question of political maturity saying to me that would not be the obvious answer to the whole matter.
But I happen to understand that you see with my case, this also happened when I was detained in Johannesburg, that there were people who were behind getting me in there. I know that Mngoma, Kurt Bouman, and the others, they were only stupid, there were nothing that they knew, they were very-very less effective, in fact people who have been in detention, who have been interrogated they will tell you that they are very glad when they are interrogated by Mngoma, because he was so stupid, there is nothing that he can be able to get out of you.
What was being done, there were people who were using them and my problem is that those people who have been responsible for this, are now sitting in very high positions and we are pointing fingers to Mngoma and the rest of them and I think that is time that we can be able to get behind the whole truth and get those people. Because to me they are the people who are suppose to come in front of the Truth Commission as I am saying to you that there is nothing that Mngoma himself and [indistinct] and the others did, they were just being given instructions that this - this is what you are suppose to be doing.
I think we need to get at the bottom of the whole thing.
DR RAMASHALA
Thank you very much Mr Kroma, Mr Chairman may I yield to my colleagues.
CHAIRPERSON
Thank you very much, any further questions - Russell Ally.
DR ALLY
Mr Kroma when they - during the period of interrogation did they actually force you to make statements and to sign statements.
MR KROMA
Yes they did - they did force me to make a statement, that was the first part of the interrogation. The statement, I am not sure what was in the statement, but it went to the effect that Michael said to us he confessed to us that he was responsible in the shooting of Blouw, which was not true you see.
DR ALLY
So they actually wrote the statement and then made you sign the statement.
MR KROMA
Yes, the only thing that I did was to sign the statement, they wrote the statement.
DR ALLY
And that was after the - the period of torture.
MR KROMA
The first statement, they wrote me a statement during the torturing and said to me this is what we want you to say and this is what you are going to say. And I - I refused because to me it was a question of sending Michael to the hangman’s knot. And I bluntly refused, but after a duress of [indistinct] and the continuing of the whole thing, when we were ready and in the police cells, they called us out and you know when you have been there for two hours, then you went to - and you - you were in the police cells for a few days, where you are still feeling the pains of what has been done to you and you are being called to - to sign this statement, you don’t want to go back for another two hours in that naughty room again.
So the obvious choice is to sign the statement and then maybe try other means outside that of moving [indistinct] on the fact of that statement.
DR ALLY
And the main thing in the statement was to get you to say that Michael had told you that he had killed this policeman - that was what they were really interested in.
MR KROMA
That was what they were interested in.
DR ALLY
Sorry this person who was killed, who was he?
MR KROMA
I am not sure, but I think it was a bus inspector if not - ja - but it’s a Mr Blouw, is his surname, I think he was bus inspector or a driver, I am not sure but he was involved with a bus company.
DR ALLY
So was he a political motivation for this?MR KROMA:
Well I am not sure, I don’t know, because I don’t even know what happened in that case of Mr Blouw. I am not sure, I would not be able to say to you what happened - whether it was political or what.
DR ALLY
And did you have to have any medical treatment after your period of - when you came out.
MR KROMA
Yes, yes I went to see a doctor, but I don’t even remember who that doctor is, it was a white doctor in town. I don’t usually get sick, so I am not - I don’t have any doctor per se but I went to see a doctor at that time, because one of the problems was that, I was deaf, both - both my ears were deaf so I received treatment there and he - he gave me tablets and so forth and capsules and....[intervention]
DR ALLY
And since that period has that torturing left any - any long term effects do you think.
MR KROMA
No I don’t think that there are any long term effect because I can - I hear properly now, and I am functioning very well, meaning that there isn’t - there are no long effects at all.
DR ALLY
I am sure that as Mayor your constituency must be very please to know that you hear very well - thanks.
CHAIRPERSON
Mary Burton.
MS BURTON
Thank you Mr Kroma for your very comprehensive testimony. I think it has added to our understanding of the way things were not only in Oudtshoorn but in the area all around in that period.
The people whom you have names will be given an opportunity to tell us anything they may want to tell us and particularly in the case of your experience in Kwanobuhle our investigators will work together with our - their fellow investigators for the Truth Commission in the Eastern Cape to do what you have asked to try and peruse more than simply the people who - who were involved, because our - one of our major aims is precisely to try and find out what the truth is in regard to that situation.
I wanted also to ask you - you probably have answered already to Dr Ally but the next person we will be hearing from is the mother of Michael Lucas, and so before we go onto that, I just wondered if there was any more light you could shed on that whole episode.
MR KROMA
Well there is - there is not much that I can reveal you know with the case of Michael Lucas, but I think to me you see I - we left Oudtshoorn together with Michael for Uitenhage, precisely because of running away from being detained. And we landed in Uitenhage where we were caught together and I was present when Michael was caught.
And I was further made to make a statement that was implicating Michael in the - in the whole thing. Michael was tried and sentenced and hanged, you see I feel as if I also was part of the whole thing you know at the end. So to me because I was - I was following that case very close - precisely because of my closeness with Michael firstly and also with his - with his final being captured.
And I personally do not think that there was justice in the case as it is. I am not a lawyer, I mean I don’t know precisely what is happening around that [indistinct] but I think I know justice when it comes to justice. And I don’t think that there was justice in the case firstly because I think the statement itself was not made by someone who wanted to make a statement. He was made to do a statement.
I mean the very same thing that they did to me, that they were able to do to me to force me into a situation where I had - where I made a statement, they could have easily have done that to Michael because they tortured him that’s what they did.
Then also if one looks at the fact of the case if you go and [indistinct] it, there was very little that made them to find Michael guilty. In fact what made them to find Michael guilty was the fact that the age that he mentioned was not the correct age, they went to test his teeth and find out that the teeth - his teeth were not of some - somebody who is the very same age as he is.
Because he was lying with his age, the State took it that he was lying to everything that he mentioned at the end of the day. That’s how he was hanged. ... end of Tape 2 , side B ...
MS BURTON
Thank you, you also said that Ms Madikane is your mother - did you mean she really is your mother or in the broader sense.
MR KROMA
She is my aunty but she is my mother, I grew up with her - I stayed with her and I’ve done everything with her.
MS BURTON
She is your aunt, but she is your mother - yes and the Mxolise whom you referred to, is that her son.
MR KROMA
Yes.
MS BURTON
Yes, and I just find myself in the situation of Ms Madikane having given her testimony and now sitting here listening to your own experience - and once again I’d like to thank you and comment her for her courage and to thank you too, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON
Yes Mr Mayor, we - well first of all I mean we - we are thrilled I mean that the change that has happened enables people like yourself with your abilities and your experience now to be at the head of the community.
But what I wanted to indicate to you and to the general public is that the Commission has called on various organisations including political parties to make submissions to the Commission and as a consequence most of the major parties are going to be making those submissions in which they will be seeking to point out what their policies were - what their objectives were and what methods they used to achieve those objectives.
Included in that is going to be and we have already begun the process is for instance calling on people in the Security Forces, the people who gave orders and so on that they too should be making submissions in which we hope we will be able to answer some of the questions that you - you raised about the fact that it should not just be the so-called foot soldiers, who are made to carried the can, that those high up in the line of command should also have an opportunity of letting us know what they were about and I think I mean your concern is a very legitimate one where it could be possible for lower ranking persons to be made to bear the brunt and be the one’s who take full blame.
Whereas the people who gave the orders might then have - as it were got away with it. But we are intending to find out the truth and part of that truth is perhaps a very important part is who gave the instructions and Dr Ramashala was pointing to the fact that we have been asked to see whether there is a pattern that can be see - a pattern of repression, of torture whatever.
And the Act requires that we should find out whether there were deliberate policy positions with regard to repression and so on. And so we - it is not as if we are - we are not as it were engaging in some people thought we would, in a witch hunt, we are seeking to find out the truth to be able to see the whole picture as much as possible, because that again is what we are asked to do to try and give as full a picture as possible of the Human Rights Violations which happened as a result of the conflict of the past.
But thank you very much.
MR KROMA
Thank you.
