DR BORAINE
Anton Fransch - I beg your pardon Mark Eugene Fransch.
MR FRANSCH
Yes.
DR BORAINE
We want to welcome you very warmly to the Commission and express our appreciation to you for your readiness and willingness to share your story and your grief with us today.
You are accompanied by Basil Snayer who is a neighbour I think, or certainly was and will be - and was a witness to the story that you will tell and he will tell his story as well about your brother. You are Mr Snayer.
MR SNAYER
Yes.
DR BORAINE
Mark Fransch would you please stand. I am going to ask you to take the oath.
MARK EUGENE FRANSCH Duly sworn states
DR BORAINE
Basil Snayer in the same way I would like to ask you please to take the oath.
MARK SNAYER Duly sworn states
DR BORAINE
I’d like to welcome those who have accompanied you as well to the witness stand. Now what we tried to do is to ask one of the Commissioners to assist you in telling the story in asking questions - just to - in order to help you and to get - give us maximum information.
On this occasion I will be doing that and I want to stress that it’s your story and your witness and all I am trying to do is to help you to tell that whole story, not put words in your mouth and not try to tell you how you should tell the story.
So if I do that, you just stop me and we’ll carry on. So again warm welcome, I hope you feel as relaxed as you can under the circumstances, you can let your shoulders droop if you like and just feel as though you are amongst friends which I hope you feel that you are.
DR BORAINE
Now I wonder if we could begin by your telling the Commission something of your own background, your family, where you come from, something about your parents, your family, yourself. And then we can - before we go on to the very tragic story that will unfold. Is that all right, fine.
MR FRANSCH
I am Mark of course, this is Donovan and Brian next to me.
DR BORAINE
Are they your brothers?
MR FRANSCH
Ja they all my brothers.
DR BORAINE
Well a very special word of welcome to you both, thank you.
MR FRANSCH
We come from Bonteheuwel and there is where Anton also stayed before he - he actually went away and my mother, she is also - she is still alive, she stays in Mitchell’s Plain now and she could not make it to be there, because it’s not good for her health.
DR BORAINE
Sure, does she know that you are here today?
MR FRANSCH
Yes.
DR BORAINE
Fine.
MR FRANSCH
And I am actually handling everything.
DR BORAINE
Fine, thank you. And are you working at the moment?
MR FRANSCH
Yes I am working, I am a cabinet maker by trade, my own business.
DR BORAINE
Now you have several brothers obviously.
MR FRANSCH
Yes.
DR BORAINE
Anton was one of them, where did he come in the family?
MR FRANSCH
He was the second youngest.
DR BORAINE
Okay.
MR FRANSCH
In the family.
DR BORAINE
Tell us a little bit about him, I mean anything you like.
MR FRANSCH
To tell you the honest truth he was a committed member of the ANC and no - no matter who tried to stop him, he just went ahead and through that he - he was wanted by the police and he was Police File and he was still - he was standing next to me that evening he was on Police File, so they said he skipped the country, he is wanted. But he was standing next to me.
DR BORAINE
You watched the program together.
MR FRANSCH
Yes and so he felt the need to actually go away.
DR BORAINE
Okay.
MR FRANSCH
He went away for something like about two years.
DR BORAINE
Any idea where he went to?
MR FRANSCH
I wouldn’t know.
DR BORAINE
He - but he was away from home?
MR FRANSCH
He was away from home, and like when he came back I believe my mother saw him and the last time she actually saw him, he was very sick and he assured her that what he is actually doing is to actually help her as well.
DR BORAINE
Okay, so he was very much involved in the struggle for freedom or justice is how he would express that.
MR FRANSCH
Yes.
DR BORAINE
Ja okay. Now let’s get on to the year 1989. Tell us what you know or what you remember or what you heard about that night.
MR FRANSCH
What I know is I heard over the radio that a terrorist is busy fighting with the police, the morning when I woke up and I went to work - I didn’t even know it was him, and about ten o’clock the morning, a newspaper phoned me to tell me that Anton’s dead. I didn’t even hear from the police that he is dead, and I mean that’s very upsetting to hear from a newspaper that your brother is killed.
DR BORAINE
Ja.
MR FRANSCH
And we went to the house, that same day and I saw parts of his flesh against the wall, his hair was - part of his hair was also against the wall and what I’ve heard is that they said they going to kill him he must come out the dog, you know you must come out, you dog. I mean how inhuman can a person be to actually - there was many ways they could have taken, got him out - out there without killing him. I mean he - you got means and ways to do that as well.
DR BORAINE
Ja.
MR FRANSCH
I mean the whole part of his body was blown away.
DR BORAINE
That must have been a very grim experience for you I am sorry. Just take your time there is no hurry. Mark can you remember where that was, where did the actual killing take place.
MR FRANSCH
It was in Crawford.
DR BORAINE
Okay.
MR FRANSCH
In Church Street.
DR BORAINE
Church Street and that was a normal house was it.
MR FRANSCH
It was a normal double-storey house.
DR BORAINE
Okay, did he live there on his own or was he staying with - with people?
MR FRANSCH
He was staying with people there.
DR BORAINE
Okay, did - what happened to them, do you know?
MR FRANSCH
They were in the house still.
DR BORAINE
I see.
MR FRANSCH
And he didn’t worry with them, I believe they were in the house.
DR BORAINE
Okay, I see but you know when the attack took place and the shots were fired and the mortars and all sorts of things that happened that night, what happened to the family who - with whom he was staying were they quite safe?
MR FRANSCH
They were quite safe.
DR BORAINE
So it’s just the one room.
MR FRANSCH
No it’s all the rooms at the bottom.
DR BORAINE
Were flattened?
MR FRANSCH
Ja of the flat.
DR BORAINE
Okay, tell me your brother, how old was he when he died?
MR FRANSCH
He was - how old - he was 20 years old.
DR BORAINE
20 Years old.
MR FRANSCH
Yes.
DR BORAINE
Okay, now you say that it wasn’t the case of - from what you could see that he was merely shot, but something much-much more powerful most of brought about his death.
MR FRANSCH
Yes.
DR BORAINE
Ja, did there - was there an inquest at all about your - your brother’s fatal killing.
MR FRANSCH
Sorry.
DR BORAINE
Was there an inquest or a Court case about his death?
MR FRANSCH
Yes there was an inquest about his death.
DR BORAINE
What was the cause of death, I mean did they establish that?
MR FRANSCH
They didn’t establish it.
DR BORAINE
Okay, what was the conclusion, what - what decision did the Court find.
MR FRANSCH
I believe they said he bombed himself.
DR BORAINE
He bombed himself, okay. So the decision of the Court was that your brother committed suicide.
MR FRANSCH
Yes.
DR BORAINE
Okay, were you represented with lawyers?
MR FRANSCH
Only the lawyer was there at the inquest, my mother could not make it to be there, because she was very-very sick.
DR BORAINE
Sure.
MR FRANSCH
I wanted to actually represent him as well, but they did not allow that.
DR BORAINE
I see, so only your lawyer was there and no members of the family?
MR FRANSCH
No member of the family.
DR BORAINE
I see, can you remember the name of the lawyer?
MR FRANSCH
It was Mr Mohammed.
DR BORAINE
Mr Mohammed okay and the practice, the lawyer was that Moosa.
MR FRANSCH
E Moosa and Associates.
DR BORAINE
Okay, thank you very much. Now this must have distressed not only you but the other members of your family and especially your mother. Do you want to tell us a bit about that?
MR FRANSCH
My mother is still very sick from that day onwards. The trauma that she is going through is nobody’s business. Because she is suffering a lot when she heard when - even we talk about Anton then she passes out.
DR BORAINE
Ja.
MR FRANSCH
Because I mean it’s her second youngest son and it’s her second son she lost.
DR BORAINE
Right.
MR FRANSCH
And I mean all of us - we really miss him.
DR BORAINE
Of course - do you - is your father alive.
MR FRANSCH
Yes my father is still alive.
DR BORAINE
And has been affected as well.
MR FRANSCH
Yes partly.
DR BORAINE
Okay, but it’s your mother who really felt it most?
MR FRANSCH
My mother [intervention]
DR BORAINE
And of course you and your brothers.
MR FRANSCH
Yes.
DR BORAINE
I see, I am not going to pursue this - these questions because there is a witness who I understand actually saw what happened, so what I am going to suggest is that we let you relax a little bit and that we heard the second witness. But before I do that, I want to consult with my colleagues to find out if they want to ask you questions before or after Basil speaks to us. Advocate Ntsebeza.
ADV NTSEBEZA
Thank you Dr Boraine, you - I just want to clear up something that apparently you said in your - in the statement to the Commission, statement takers. Did you say that you came to the scene after the event.
MR FRANSCH
Yes I did.
ADV NTSEBEZA
And did you say that you found parts of his body plastered to the wall as if he had been ripped up by an explosion.
MR FRANSCH
Not - part - part of his flesh.
ADV NTSEBEZA
Parts of his flesh?
MR FRANSCH
Yes.
ADV NTSEBEZA
Were plastered to the body - the wall?
MR FRANSCH
Yes.
ADV NTSEBEZA
Now and did your mother see that scene as well?
MR FRANSCH
Yes she did.
ADV NTSEBEZA
Okay, thank you, I just wanted to clear that up.
CHAIRPERSON
Dr Wendy Orr.
DR ORR
Mark what would you like the Truth Commission to do for you and your family?
MR FRANSCH
What I’d like them to do is find the guilty parties and let us know who they are. For my mother I would like the Commission to see that she gets some compensation for Anton.
DR RANDERA
Mark you talked about the day that your brother died and a little about the inquest, can you tell us about - a little about what the response of the authorities was between the death and the actual inquest when you went to the police station or other authorities you dealt with in terms of explanations as to what happened.
MR FRANSCH
To tell you the honest truth, we hardly got any response from the police, nothing. I first saw the - what really happened in the file now the other day and to actually see how he actually - his body looked - part of his hands was ripped apart and I can’t mention the other parts of his body.
DR BORAINE
Mr Snayer, Basil - a welcome to you as well I am sure the family are very grateful to you for your willingness to assist us to establish as much of what happened that night as it possible. First let me ask you, you - where do you live?
MR SNAYER
Doctor I - I live in a house at 148 Church Street.
DR BORAINE
Right.
MR SNAYER
In Athlone.
DR BORAINE
Thank you and where - what - where did Anton stay before he was killed?
MR SNAYER
At the house next to mine.
DR BORAINE
And it’s right next-door.
MR SNAYER
Right next-door.
DR BORAINE
Okay, now you knew Anton did you or only afterwards you realise who it was there. Did you - aware of the family?
MR SNAYER
No I wasn’t I became aware of who he was, happen to find out that he was at one stage a student at the school where my brother taught in my brother’s class.
DR BORAINE
So you at that time - on that night in November 1989 early morning, you didn’t really know that he was there?
MR SNAYER
No I had no idea.
DR BORAINE
Okay, thank you. Now you have told us that you heard shots being fired, approximately what time was that when you first heard that?
MR SNAYER
It must of been between about 12:30 and 12:45 the morning. I remember that because I had been out rehearsing with the band I play for.
DR BORAINE
Okay.
MR SNAYER
Until about twelve o’clock I came home, found my wife in the - in the kitchen baking cookies because that was the day on - of my eldest daughter’s birthday, 11th birthday.
DR BORAINE
Okay, so it’s very vivid for you?
MR SNAYER
Ja.
DR BORAINE
You must of - I mean how did you feel when you started hearing gun firing it must of been very close.
MR SNAYER
Ja terrified and of course one immediately reacts to - to that and the proximity of the sound immediately made me and my wife fall flat on the kitchen floor and I entered my way to the telephone - phoned my neighbour to find out whether he knew what was going on. His response to me was that there could be a shooting in - between people either in his backyard or just outside in the street at the back of his property.
DR BORAINE
What happened after that?
MR SNAYER
My wife, while I was in the bedrooms of my children, taking the boys out of the room which was the closest to where I heard the shots, and taking them away from there to a back room where my - where my daughters were, my wife had phoned the Athlone police station and the response from the police station that she needn’t worry they knew all about what was going on.
And that obviously made me more terrified because of - of how I began to interpret things from that point onwards. I had two - I made my own deduction it could be one of two things at that point. It could have been a possible perpetrator of the - or offender of the Law who had been cornered or it could have been a freedom fighter who - who had been surrounded by the police. I then went back into the back room where my family was with our housekeeper.
And of course they were - they were shivering there, my children were at that time 13, 11 and 4 years of age and crying incessantly and probably wondering when the next shot was going to hit their bedroom door. The shots were just going on and on and on. And I then started crawling around moving towards the back of the house where - where most of the sound was coming from and I managed to open the back window very-very slowly and slightly and I on peeping through I saw feet moving about in my backyard and then with the amount of vision that I had I could clearly see that my back gate has - was wide open and I know that it’s a - that was a practice of me locking it.
I then became aware of people walking around in the back street in and out of the gate, in my backyard past that window and everybody was armed. Some had taken position on the property opposite my house, opposite the street in the back, also armed and shooting. I then closed the window and proceeded to go to the front of the house and at that point I - my thought was to evacuate my house for the safety of my family.
DR BORAINE
Just - may I stop you there just for a moment. A rough estimate when you looked out of the window and saw people coming and going and all armed, how many do you think approximately are we talking about, two or three or more?
MR SNAYER
Oh! no I - it must have been more, I saw at least three people cross the road and in the - in the other property at the same time as people were moving in and out it might have been those moving in and out and passed the window - might have been the same people.
DR BORAINE
Sure.
MR SNAYER
But before when I - when I - when I wanted to or before I wanted to evacuate the house, I went to peep through the front door - window, the front bedroom window and saw there were also policeman patrolling in the garden outside. At that point I thought it wise not to - not to attempt to evacuate the house.
DR BORAINE
Okay, what happened after that?
MR SNAYER
Well by this time it was about possibly three o’clock in the morning. And the shooting hadn’t abated - I then went back to the back of the house, opened that same window and I think it could have been around three o’clock or just before when I saw a Casspir vehicle coming done Denton Road which is that road at the back.
It’s a cul-de-sac and I suppose with no space to turn the vehicle that had gone past reversed again out of the - of that street. It must have made a turn and minutes after that came back this time reversing passed the window again and I was watching all of this.
And I must - must also say I - before that I am just remembering at - maybe before - before some of the other events that I’ve described already I phoned also to another person called Bennie Ghool who is a photo journalist I know and I told him what was going on. He said to me that he would be coming through to take some pictures.
Then at - at around that time, when the vehicle had gone passed again, I then heard it revving up. It speeded up and rammed the wall of Mr Noordien my neighbour next-door, rammed the wall about three attempts were made before the wall gave and the Casspir then parked right opposite in very - very close proximity to the apartment where - where Anton was apparently living. It was at that there was an increase in the gun fire and also in the - in the type of sound that I heard.
Only to discover afterwards of course that there were huge holes in the wall, both outer and inner walls right through the wall. Soon after - after this exercise of the Casspir, I went back to the room to report to my wife what was happening. And then I heard the front door bell ringing and I went to see who was there. A person who identified him as either Sergeant or Captain Brazelle said [intervention]
DR BORAINE
Sorry could you just repeat that Brazelle.
MR SNAYER
I - I believe it was Sergeant or Captain Brazelle or Brezel or something to that nature.
DR BORAINE
Okay, thank you.
MR SNAYER
He said to me that I should open the door because there is a terrorist in the house next-door and they needed to come in. I think protested and said my family had been terrorised right through the night already, and that I didn’t think it was a wise thing for them to come and use my house as a advantage point from which to fire heavy artillery.
They were all very heavily armed, who were standing outside behind him. He said to me all this time I had the safety chain on my door. All this time he - after that he said to me, he didn’t need my permission. I then felt quite helpless and frustrated.
I opened the door and he barged in with about four or five policeman in uniform following him with guns at the ready. They took various position two in the kitchen, at the kitchen window opposite the apartment and two in the bathroom next to the kitchen, also opposite the apartment. I was ordered for my own safety to go into the room where my family was and not to come out. I didn’t obey that, I went into the room and kept the door open. And I then saw that the two policeman who were at the kitchen window bashed the - the kitchen windows out end of Tape 16, side B … - sounded as if the house was blowing up.
I - I began to feel increasingly compromised by a situation over which I had no control and which clearly could in my view have - have degenerated into a - into a situation where from which ever side, my house could have been blown up with my - with my family in it.
I heard voices outside shouting kom uit jou vark, come out you dog, today is your last day - today you going to die. I - I didn’t - I really didn’t know why this was happening. And why - why it was that to my mind at that time there could have been - there could have been easily about 30 or 40 policeman if not more who had surrounded the place.
And every time the voices or voice said kom uit jou vark which to my mind - only fighting one person. The shooting didn’t - didn’t stop.
Then I went into a room adjacent to the back room where I - where I had spend much of my time that morning and at around 7:45 the morning about ja about quarter to eight, I became aware of a policeman on the - on the roof lying or crouching and a hand or arm movement which could have been either trying to catch something that had fallen or throwing something.
Very - I mean almost immediately after that, there was a loud very-very loud explosion. And then everything just went quite and minutes after that, I heard someone saying, you may come out now it’s all over.
No-one was allowed into - into that department until the police had done what they - whatever they were doing inside and whatever was - or whoever was carried into an ambulance or a police vehicle that arrived, I can’t clearly remember. But when we - when people who were surrounding the place were finally allowed in by Mr Noordien, we saw the effect of whatever had been - had been shot into the room or whatever explosions occurred.
There were bits of clothing on the floor, against the wall - the walls and ceiling were blood spattered all - all over. Bits of what I - I can only describe as hair or some sort and flesh were also strewn around and - and smeared or whatever onto the wall.
And that - that ended a - I suppose an episode in our lives as a family which we will never forget. But I want to end by saying that I agreed to testify here today not - not simply because the truth must be told.
I also agreed because the impressions created by claims that young cadres like Anton and Ashley Kriel, Robbie Waterwitch, Coline Williams and many-many others, were communists or young people misguided by communists. That myth should be exploded once and for all. That I believe that a brave soldier died in the service of his country. I also believe that I owe it to the family who were not given the chance to say goodbye.
I owe it to them to make - to make the attempts to make all efforts to get as close to the truth as we possibly can. Because without that we can’t start the healing. But I also think that those responsible for that attack, need to come forward and account for their actions as well as those who gave the orders. Without that, the healing can’t begin either. Thank you doctor.
DR BORAINE
I thank you very much Mr Snayer I - I know that the family obviously are very grateful and we as a Commission are always grateful when people who actually were at the scene and can tell what happened come before the Commission so that we get some - some glimpse of what was going on. You told us this was in November 1989.
MR SNAYER
Yes.
DR BORAINE
It seems so - so wasteful when three months later there was a completely new beginning which Anton of course didn’t see. It was a night of terror not only for Anton and for the people who lived in the house in which he was in, but also for you and your family. How - how are your children and how is your wife and are you - how do you - how are you coping?
MR SNAYER
My wife is a very strong woman and I think the experiences that I’ve had with her throughout that period and which she felt as a - personally since just months before that Robin, Robbie Waterwitch whose her nephew was also killed in a bomb blast, I think strengthened her and in a way almost prepared her to be able to absorb [intervention]
DR BORAINE
Your children?
MR SNAYER
Well for months and I don’t know possibly for years especially the - especially my daughter who’s birthday it was, I noticed for a good while after that, that any - any sudden kind of loud noise would - would make her stop and shiver and tremble. Even the loud banging of a door that’s unexpectedly heard.
The boys went through a similar phase I think, but just the - just probably the memory of - and the awareness at that time that - that people actually did not have access to or real access to complaining about those kinds of things.
I suppose especially for the older children I don’t know what kind of effect that had on them except that I think I am grateful that in some way it shaped their consciousness about - about where they were living, in what kind of country they were living and how - how the country should change.
DR BORAINE
Ja, I only have two more questions and then I will hand over to the Chairperson in case any of our colleagues would like to ask you any more questions. Firstly you have described very vividly of the shots that were being fired for a very long time. Starting from before one o’clock in the morning and only really finishing around about quarter to eight.
You told us also of the police who not only were around your house and across the road, but also came into your house and shot - further shots were fired and you talked about the sarrison??? that obviously used it’s own power to break down the wall and then the final explosion which may or may not have been a hand grenade or whatever.
Can you remember - think very carefully, can you remember hearing or witnessing shots, fire coming from a house towards your house or across the road of the police being fired upon. Have you any recollection of that at all?
MR SNAYER
Well from - from my advantage point there was - there was - there was very little chance of me saying in which direction shots were going.
DR BORAINE
Okay.
MR SNAYER
I suppose if any bullets had - had either come through the window they would have made marks.
DR BORAINE
Sure.
MR SNAYER
Inside my house, I haven’t changed the tiles for example in my kitchen or my bathroom, so I could - I can only conclude that from that - from that angle there were certainly no - no bullets or stray bullets.
DR BORAINE
Ja.
MR SNAYER
There was one - two - there were two marks the one was on - on the wall of the room where I had - I had taken up a final position. Where a bullet was lodged and there was another hole slanted into the - into the back door of my garage. Those were the only - that’s the only evidence or apparent evidence of shots that were fired in a direction coming from the house.
DR BORAINE
From the house, so there may well have been [intervention]
MR SNAYER
That is possible ja.
DR BORAINE
Ja, a final question then is - there was an inquest, were you called or summonsed or requested to give evidence at that inquest?
MR SNAYER
No.
DR BORAINE
The lawyer never approached you?
MR SNAYER
No.
DR BORAINE
Weren’t you surprised at that?
MR SNAYER
It’s the first time I hear that there was an inquest.
DR BORAINE
Astonishing, thank you very much indeed, you’ve been very helpful.
CHAIRPERSON
Thank you, any questions, Dr Wendy Orr.
DR ORR
Mr Snayer thank you for - for telling us of what must have been a really terrifying experience. To clear the sequence of events in my mind about what time did this Captain or Sergeant Brazelle come into your house?
MR SNAYER
I was certainly after three o’clock the morning.
DR ORR
So the shooting had already been going on for some time when he came in.
MR SNAYER
The shooting didn’t stop, I suppose intimately possibly a half a minute - maximum I would say silence throughout the night until that final explosion. There was no stopping.
DR ORR
At any time after the shooting first started, did the police or anyone come in and say look there is a police operation going on and for your own safety let’s take you somewhere safe. Did they show any concern for your safety.
MR SNAYER
No in fact I - I made that suggestion after I had - on my own before the police entered my house, thought of that idea of evacuating the house. But in peeping through the window and seeing that there were police in the front of the house I decided against it. But when they had chosen to enter my house. I had made that suggestion again to this Captain or Sergeant Brazelle who refused point blank that - that I should leave there. That was certainly an option or a concern for me.
DR ORR
So you and obviously other families in the neighbourhood were in constant danger during that [intervention]
MR SNAYER
Absolutely.
DR ORR
Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON
Dr Randera.
DR RANDERA
[indistinct] ask that is in all the time and you seem to have been there from the time that the shooting started right to the end, was there - did you hear at any time the police say to the person inside the house, come out and we’ll stop the shooting. Was he given the opportunity to give himself up?
MR SNAYER
No to - not to my mind, I certainly didn’t hear any such request, I only heard something which points to the contrary, kom uit jou vark, vandag is jy dood. Come out you pig today you will be killed.
CHAIRPERSON
Dumisa Ntsebeza.
ADV NTSEBEZA
Ja, now do you have an indication or can you formulate an impression in your mind as to what size police force there was on that day.
MR SNAYER
I can’t accurately say how many.
ADV NTSEBEZA
Approximately?
MR SNAYER
I would say approximately - you see if I take the Casspir into consideration and - I would say at least about 35 - 40.
ADV NTSEBEZA
I see and from your impression it was clear that there were pursuing one person.
MR SNAYER
Absolutely.
ADV NTSEBEZA
In fact our research department has compiled a short note and they say the police claimed that they surrounded this particular house after receiving a tip off which was allegedly made by a man who was believed to be Anton’s accomplice and which man they had arrested near a telephone exchange in Kromboom Road.
Now the question is, did you as a community ever establish who this alleged accomplice was, who had been arrested in Kromboom Road earlier on and were tipped off the police?
MR SNAYER
Not to my knowledge.
ADV NTSEBEZA
And in any event, as just a related question did you consider that the police could have used some other methods of either arresting or causing this man to be flushed out - out of that- of that house.
MR SNAYER
Well certainly my experience with - with the South African Police at that time, they had methods of dispersing of thousands of people in the street in a matter of minutes. They took seven hours in what could only be described as declaring a residential area a war zone and terrorising not only Anton and the immediate people in the two homes, but also residence in the area who’s lives were constantly in danger.
I - I have no doubt in my mind that, that for me was also part of the motivation for me to agree to this - to this testimony. I - I am convinced that if the will was there, Anton could have been gassed out, starved out if it took seven days in order to gain intelligence for whatever purpose.
ADV NTSEBEZA
Now correct me if I am wrong. Do I understand that your own impression is that the police never came there to take a prisoner.
MR SNAYER
To?
ADV NTSEBEZA
To take a prisoner, they came to kill one.
MR SNAYER
No - no the impression I got from the size of the task force - impression from the statements heard during the next, during the morning and the attitude of the people who entered my house, gave me the impression that the purpose of the exercise was a military attack on a - on an enemy and that for me went - meant a kind of kill or be killed situation.
Because of the overwhelming advantage of those who - who shot at someone who didn’t hold any hostages, someone who was alone for seven hours certainly gives me the impression that there was no intention to take prisoner anybody.
Now your testimony suggested that there was this person police person who was on the roof who threw something and then thereafter, there was an explosion. Now one can conclude from that, that the something that was being thrown in was a detonating substance like a hand grenade. Now I would like to hear your comments on a police version that they gave subsequently. They said Anton died of a grenade blast that he detonated himself. What would your comment be in view of what you saw?
MR SNAYER
My impression is that the time lapse between the action, the arm action of the person I saw and the explosion could very well be that a - an explosive device had been rolled into the - into the window.
I cannot say for certain, but given the over all events of the - of the - of that morning, that certainly is the impression I - I got - especially after there was - there were no other - there were no other shots heard and soon after that, someone I suspect it’s a policeman who said you can come out now, it’s all over.
ADV NTSEBEZA
Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON
And thank you very much for your testimony - both of you. And for our part as the Commission will seek to get to the bottom of all of what we hear and try and establish what the truth is, but we also want to express our deep sympathies for - for all concerned and the [indistinct] accounts of events, thank you.
MR SNAYER
Thank you.
ADV NTSEBEZA
I just wanted to find out from Mr Snayer whether the photographer Ghool ever got to the scene and if he did, whether he took any photographs, that might assist us in wanting to [intervention]
MR SNAYER
I spoke to Mr Ghool just before I was briefed and he indeed did take photo’s.
ADV NTSEBEZA
And he still has then.
MR SNAYER
And he is prepared - he is prepared to present those photo’s.
ADV NTSEBEZA
Thank you.
