MS BURTON
We call the next witness to the stage. He is Headman Dwyali. Do you know whether she is going to speak too. Good morning.
HEADMAN DWYALI
Good morning to you to Ma’am.
MS BURTON
Please will you stand to take the oath. Will you switch the microphone on please just press the red button. That’s right.
HEADMAN DWYALI Duly sworn states.
MS BURTON
Your testimony will be facilitated by Adv Potgieter.
ADV POTGIETER
Thank you Chairperson. Good morning Mr Dwyali, welcome here. There is somebody with you - is that your mother?
HEADMAN DWYALI
Yes, it’s my mother.
ADV POTGIETER
Morning to Mrs Dwyali as well and welcome to you as well and thank you for coming with your son.
Now Mr Dwyali I want you to relax and tell us exactly what happened. Now your testimony relates to your detention and what happened subsequent to that on the 4th of July 1995.
Now before we talk about that, the actual incident, perhaps you can tell us, in 1985 what were you doing then - were you a student?
HEADMAN DWYALI
No, I was not at school in 1985. I had stopped schooling already.
ADV POTGIETER
Were you involved in the structures in the community that existed at that time. We’ve already heard that was the sort of peak of activity and opposition to the system.
HEADMAN DWYALI
Yes, I was political. - I was political.
ADV POTGIETER
Were you involved with [indistinct] at that stage?
MR DWYALI
Yes I was.
ADV POTGIETER
[indistinct] congress in De Aar then.
MR DWYALI
Yes, there was sir.
ADV POTGIETER
Now you in fact got arrested and detained on the 4th of July in that year of 1985. What did the police say, why were they taking you?
MR DWYALI
When they arrested me they said I was burning down structures. All the structures that were burning down, they said I was involved. They said I was involved in burning down a priest’s house.
ADV POTGIETER
[Indistinct] person that was arrested in connection with these allegation or were you a group of people?
MR DWYALI
No, it was not me alone. There were other people - there was a few of us.
ADV POTGIETER
And what did you gather, was the police just sort of questioning you in general, they did not have any specific information about your own involvement.
MR DWYALI
They were not asking me, they were telling me what I had done.
ADV POTGIETER
Now perhaps before we just move onto the incident, were you involved in, you say that you were involved in the youth structure, but how were you involved. Were you just an ordinary member, were you on the executive, what sort of involvement were you.
MR DWYALI
I was just a member, I was not in the leadership. I loved that organisation.
ADV POTGIETER
You say that the police took you in and they were telling you that this is what you have done. How did things develop from there - I assume you denied what they were saying.
MR DWYALI
Should I start my story now.
ADV POTGIETER
Yes, please do that.
MR DWYALI
I was arrested in the morning - his name was Snyman, Thomas and Smith. These were the policemen that arrested me - China as well. China is the one who pointed me out and identified me as Madoda. They took me in the morning. They put me in a police van. They drove me to the police station.
When I got to the police station, they had taken other people with as well. When we got to the police station, it was still in the morning, we sat there. Our parents came the same day to this police station to ascertain what happened. They were told that they could not see us. At about seven - eight the same day, Snyman and Thomas came and opened my cell.
They took me into a van yet again. I was asking myself where am I going in the evening. I thought they were taking me to a place where they were going to take a statement. The place was familiar, the building had two floors. We went to the upper floor. Thomas then said to me today I am going to tell the truth. They said I must tell the truth, I had burned down those buildings. You know exactly what’s going on. I said I do not know. I was not there. They said you are going to tell the truth today.
I don’t know where Snyman emanated from, he had a sack he put it over my head. I could not even move, because there were quite a few policemen there. He put it on me, after he put it on he took my hands behind my back, tied them. After he tied my hands, he threw me on the floor. I was told to lie on my back and look upwards, my legs were pushed up.
There is a cane that was put under me. This cane, they put some stuff in my body as well. My body was just going funny in a very painful way, with sounds, I was crying and crying. Then they switched off whatever it is they were using. They said I must tell the truth. I burnt down the structures, I said it was not me.
They started again, they switched on whatever it is that they were using. It was very painful, my strength evaded me. They stopped again - they asked yet again. I denied, again they started. And eventually I just admitted. They then said that they would stopped and they stopped.
They put me in another office from that office. Every man that came there into that office, right through the night, just came to give me a beating. It was all boers. I wanted to fight back, but I could not, because there was quite a few of them. I don’t know where they were coming from but everyone who came into that office, boxed me around, beating me up. I really wanted to fight back, but when I looked, there were too many of them. I don’t know whether they got tired of beating me up.
Eventually they said I must go make a statement. They took me into a cell, I slept. I told the other comrades, the accused, exactly what happened to me.
My friend was taken and the same was done to him the following day. I was sleeping during the day. Our parents came, but they were - were not allowed to see us. At about eight - nine in the evening, this policeman came again to fetch me from the cell. They put me in a van. There was no ventilation. I asked myself what type of a van is this. I had never seen one before. We drove away from De Aar, we stopped somewhere. I don’t know exactly where we were.
I heard a sound - they took a huge box out of the car. It was just me and the van. Somehow my head was being slapped back and fro. I was dizzy. There was tear gas everything - I was falling all over. There was no ventilation. There is nothing I could break - it was just iron everywhere. I was going up and down at the back of the van. I was bereft of strength.
They opened the van eventually and I just fell on the road. Snyman kicked me. He said I am going to tell the truth. I was dizzy. I was just crying, asking what have I done, they would not tell me. They carried on until they were tired and they put me back into the van. They drove back - back to my cell.
On the Saturday, we were sitting, all the comrades - we were singing. A policeman, Ngonmo Nbeni, walked past us. He went into a van, he took something that’s about ½ meter long. He took it into the cell, it was tear gas. There was confusion and chaos in the cell. We did not know what to do.
Our parents were told not to come that day. They were told that they could not see us. We took our heads and put them in the toilet, because all we wanted was air, we wanted to breath. We were fighting over the toilet.
At night they took us and threw us outside - that is the only time we got some air. After we breathed sufficiently, they took us back into the cell.
My life has never been the same. I was sentenced twelve years in prison. After I was sentenced I was mentally disturbed. Now and again I get disturbed. Even now - I served my term and I was released when the other political prisoner were released. This was after six months in jail.
ADV POTGIETER
How old were you when you went through this experience in 1985?
MR DWYALI
I was fifteen years of age.
ADV POTGIETER
Now you say that Snyman and Thomas is two policemen who were assaulting you and torturing you as you had described to us and they wanted you to make a statement. Did you actually make a statement as a result of this treatment?
MR DWYALI
Yes, I gave a statement eventually, because I could no longer take the pain. I had to admit to what I did not know.
ADV POTGIETER
[Indistinct] you made a confession to this these allegations of arson.
MR DWYALI
Yes, I admitted that I was guilty.
ADV POTGIETER
Did you make it to the make it to the magistrate or did you make it to one of the police officers or what?
MR DWYALI
We were taken to the Magistrate. I first told the Magistrate that I will not give any statement. I am waiting for an attorney I said. The Magistrate did not make me make a statement. But they came to fetch me and they tortured me yet again, because I would not make a statement. I said I will give a statement at Sanlam.
There was a special Magistrate that worked in the evenings. I had to give the statement to this Magistrate. I told him that I want an attorney. Again they took me back to the cells and tortured me. The third time when I returned I did not give a statement, but at Sanlam, I eventually gave a statement. If I had not given a statement, perhaps I would be dead today.
ADV POTGIETER
And that statement that you eventually gave, did you make that statement to the Magistrate that was on duty at night time also.
MR DWYALI
Yes, I gave it to the Magistrate that worked in the evenings. I told the Magistrate that I get tortured, because I won’t give a statement. They come in numbers and they clobber me. I had marks, I showed him the marks on my arms.
ADV POTGIETER
This Magistrate that you made the statement to, is the Magistrate from De Aar. It’s a local - it was a local Magistrate.
MR DWYALI
I did not see this Magistrate after he had taken my statement, but it was a Magistrate that was always there in the evenings. During the day there was a different Magistrate all together.
ADV POTGIETER
Was that statement then used in court against you? And were you then found guilty of arson on the basis of that statement that you made?
MR DWYALI
Yes, it is as a result of that statement that I was sentenced.
ADV POTGIETER
Was there any eye witness that came to court that said that they saw you setting these structure alight that you referred to? Or was it only on that statement that they convicted you?
MR DWYALI
Yes, there is a lady that came. I don’t know what happened to her.
ADV POTGIETER
Now you were then sentenced, I assume with some other people, with co-accused?
MR DWYALI
There were two charges against me. In the one case I was sentenced for eighteen years, the other case I was sentenced for twelve years. Eight years, sorry - the eight years in prison.
ADV POTGIETER
Which part of that sentence did you actually serve? For how long were you actually in prison?
MR DWYALI
Four years, six months.
ADV POTGIETER
And just to come back and to clarify, Thomas and Snyman, were they security policemen, or what kind of policemen were they?
MR DWYALI
They were investigators at the time.
ADV POTGIETER
[indistinct]
MR DWYALI
Yes, Snyman is still here. Smith and Thomas I don’t see anymore, but Snyman is still here - I think Snyman is still around.
ADV POTGIETER
[Indistinct] you say that this experience affected you mentally. Are you getting medical treatment for that condition at present?
MR DWYALI
I go to doctors - they do not know what I am suffering from. This is affecting my job. My employers say that I go too much to doctor - I spent to much time away from work. The doctor books me off too often - end of Tape 1, Side A … [indistinct] is getting tired of my taking time off work.
Last month he called me in for a meeting. He asked me what is wrong. I told - I told him that I am healthy, my body is healthy, but my heart is aching - he called me last month.
Every month I go to a doctor - I don’t know what I am suffering from. My mind is not fine - even at home. This police really beat me.
ADV POTGIETER
[indistinct] - you are not married, you don’t have any dependants.
MR DWYALI
I am married - no I do not have children. I only have illegitimate children.
ADV POTGIETER
[Indistinct]MR DWYALI
No, they do not stay with me - they are illegitimate.
ADV POTGIETER
[Indistinct] support .
MR DWYALI
Yes, I do, but I earn very little.
ADV POTGIETER
[Indistinct]
MR DWYALI
No, she does not work.
ADV POTGIETER
So it’s only mentally - physically are you okay. You don’t have any physical complaints as a result of the treatment.
MR DWYALI
My body is not fine, sir - I do not sleep well. I get tired all the time. Even at work, whilst I am working. I feel that my body is not well. My employer is lenient with me, because he can see that I love my job. I go to the doctors, but they send me to Bloemfontein, to Kimberley. The don’t know exactly what it is with me.
ADV POTGIETER
Thank you very much. I hand back to the Chairperson.
MS BURTON
Headman, you say you were a member of an organisation, but you did not say the name of the organisation.
MR DWYALI
It was called Dara.
MS BURTON
You said when Snyman and Thomas were taking you, there is a man called China who identified you. Was it a policeman, or was it just a member of the community?
MR DWYALI
Then he was just a member of our community. But now is a policeman.
MS BURTON
Did he say that he saw you burning down the structures or did he just say you were a member of the organisation?MR DWYALI
He pointed me out, because when we were toi-toiing, he was there with us.
MS BURTON
Tell us about the treatment that you experienced at that time and your many, many months and years in prison. It’s clear that they still have - that experience still has an effect on you. And we really hope that something can be done to help you not to feel so troubled in your heart and mind. You are very fortunate to have work, and work that you like. We hear so many people who are not able to find work and who are therefore extra suffering, so you are - you are really blessed in having an employer who understands some of your difficulties.
You mentioned also that there was a friend with you who had the same treatment. Do you know whether he has come to make a statement to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission?
MR DWYALI
He’s got a problem. He now works for the Government. He’s is to scared. He said to me we are struggling. He says these are difficult times. He’ll come to the Truth Commission - give evidence - give his report - meanwhile in the audience - one of his employers is there. And that would put him in danger - he might lose his job.
So he does not want to give evidence. He does not want come here. He says that the guilty people, the perpetrators of violence were left behind in the location, but it is innocent ones that went into prison, that were tortured - he refused to come.
MS BURTON
Thank you for telling us that. We are aware that people are sometimes afraid or reluctant for other reasons to come and testify. So that’s another reason that we are grateful to have heard from you.
We hope that during this process that this Commission is doing it’s work, we can begin to establish the kind of relationships, where people will not be afraid to come and speak the truth. Because we can’t carry forward the same kind of problems that we had in the past. We have to build a society where people can be honest and can speak without fear and that is one of the things that this Commission will be working towards, but we need the co-operation of many people to achieve that.
Ms Dwyali, thank you too for coming today. These experiences have an effect on families and everybody suffers when a son or a husband or a brother or a wife experiences this. So we hope that things will be better for you in the future and we thank you very much for coming today.
