DANIEL PAULOS NONGENA: (sworn states)
MAHKI BOYI: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: First of all I would like to apologize that on Monday when we were meant to give testimony before the Commission, you were not able to do so, because of a request given to us by Mr Card whom you had listed in your statement. We’ll hand over to Mr Sandi to lead evidence.
MR SANDI: Mr Chairperson, we will start with Mr Boyi. Could he come closer to the mike please. Mr Boyi, when I look at this statement before us you say that in 1963 you were ill-treated by the police as a member of the PAC. Mr Boyi could you tell us what happened on this particular day in 1963 and who the police were that are the perpetrators.
MR BOYI: Mr Chairperson in 1963, I was arrested and I was sentenced in 1964.
MR SANDI: Why were you arrested ?
MR BOYI: Because I was a member of the PAC, as it was banned at the time. This is why I was arrested. In 1964, March, I was sentenced and I was taken to Robben Island. I
came back after 2 years. In 1966, I stayed in Hanga. The one day 3 policemen came and my boss said I’m being called by these policemen. Mr Card introduced himself to me, e. They requested that I get into the car with them. I left. We got to King William’s Town at the office. They closed me into the car, locked me into the car. They came back after a few minutes, got into the car. They did not tell me where they were taking me. This car was driven toward Nchoga. It was in the morning. When we came close to the river next to Nchoga, they stopped the car. They got off the car. They asked me if I know Umgazi. I said that I do not know him. The policeman that was standing next to me took me out of the car. He said that we are not playing games here.
They handcuffed me onto a pole. They said that I must tell the truth, I know Umgazi who’s got a garage in East London, a petrol station. I did not know this Mr Umgazi. They said that he had a petrol station with Pan African motives as its name. Mr Card then shot into the air and said that if I do not tell the truth, I was going to die there. They did not beat me up. They, they unchained me, put me into the car. This car was driven to the Supreme Court in Grahamstown. They locked me into the car yet again. They asked if I would recognize Mr Umgazi if I saw him then. I re-iterated that I did not know him.. They went inside. It was the first time I saw Mr Umgazi in Grahamstown. Late in the afternoon they took me home. They left, they actually left in the evening on the way home. They did not take me home. That is my complaint here to-day. It is Mr Card who threatened me.
MR SANDI: Thank you Sir. You say that this Mr Card introduced himself to you.
MR BOYI: Yes, he introduced himself.
MR SANDI: Did he give his full name and his title ?
MR BOYI: He did not say whether he’s a sergeant or not, he just said that he was Mr Card and introduced the other two. I can’t remember their names.
MR SANDI: Did you hear about him after that ?
MR BOYI: Yes.
MR SANDI: What did you hear about him ?
MR BOYI: He was known in East London, also this side. He used to move around with Xantisebe. He would investigate political organizations. It was a long time ago when this incident occurred.
MR SANDI: Would you recognize him if you’d see him ?
MR BOYI: I don’t know, because it was a long time ago.
MR SANDI: Is that all the evidence, Mr Boyi ?
MR BOYI: Yes.
MR SANDI: Do you have requests before the Commission ?
MR BOYI: Excuse me ?
MR SANDI: Do you have requests before the Commission in connection with this incident ?
MR BOYI: Mr Chairperson, I have no requests. This man was doing his job.
MR SANDI: In your statement you say that you wish to meet him. Is that so ?
MR BOYI: Yes, I’d like to see him now that I’m free as well.
MR SANDI: Do you have reasons to request this meeting ?
MR BOYI: I just want to see him now that I am free and in liberation, I just want to see him and look at him.
MR SANDI: Thank you Mr Boyi. Lets continue with Mr Nongena. Mr Nongena, your
full names are Daniel Paulos Nongena. Is that so ?
MR NONGENA: Yes.
MR SANDI: Your story is similar to Mr Boyi’s one. Where you in the same organization ? Your incidents happened around the same time and the same place. What happened to you, Mr Nongena, on this year.
MR NONGENA: It was in 1963. Neogo was arrested. They were leading us in our organization. We would have meetings in the forest. We would try to make our own weapons to protect ourselves as we’d come to King William’s Town We then came to King William’s Town. We got to the Police Station where the court is now. There was a Post Office. We went into the back door, when we got there, there were people waiting for us already. We got there and our men that were taken from the village were there. The police started shooting in the air. Jegexho was shot and my older brother, George Nongena. We then left town. Kolegenjo and my elder brother, because they could not move were left behind. We heard over the radio that they were found in King William’s Town. The next morning, on the 9th, Xanti Sebe came to the village. They arrested us and took us to King William’s Town. Charle Sebe came with Hatala. Donald Card was not there. They took us to King William’s Town. They put us into water in a straight-jacket .
MR SANDI: What is a straight-jacket ?
MR NONGENA: It’s a sack. They put you into the sack, they tie it up and they throw you into the water then you , the water inevitably comes into your mouth and stomach and stomach would be full of water. They take you out, pump you, pump out the water and put you back again, saying that we must tell the truth.
MR SANDI: They wanted you totalk.
MR NONGENA: Yes, they wanted us, they were demanding the truth. On the second day, they came again, took us out of the cell. We were taken out. They took.. They would... It was, it was like routine. They’d take us out of the cell and into the water. There was... Donald Card there. Xanti, Xanti would say that he was going to call Donald Card for us, who was going to sort us out. It was difficult to see him because it was at night but I would hear them calling out his name, Donald Card.
MR SANDI: Are you referring to Xanti, Xanti Charles Sebe ?
MR NONGENA: Yes.
MR SANDI: Please repeat this. You’re saying that, what did Charles Sebe say about Card ?
MR NONGENA: Charles said that Card was going to sort us out.
MR SANDI: Where was Donald Card at the time ?
R NONGENA: There were three of them, it was at night. I cannot identify him. They would beat us up behind the prison.
MR SANDI: Thank you Sir. Is that all the evidence, Mr Nongena.
MR NONGENA: I, I don’t want to continue now, but the white man in Robben Island also ill-treated me. When, after we had been sentenced in Robben Island, by the time Mandela got into jail we were there already, being ill-treated and tortured
MR SANDI: Do you have a request in connection with this incident ?
MR NONGENA: I do, there are a lot of people who died in our area in the struggle for liberation. There should be some form of project for the whole village. I do not want to have compensations just for myself, I want it for the entire village, because it was for the people that I was fighting for.
you beaten up ?
MR SANDI: I will hand over to the Chairperson.
MS MAYA : Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Nongena, I’d like to ask you a question. You said that at night when you were taken behind the prison, were you were beaten up?
MR NONGENA: There were three people, Mazinxanti, that you knew who was Charles.
CHAIRPERSON: What about the others ? What type of a man was he ?
MR NONGENA: It was a white man.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you perhaps know who the 3rd person was ?
MR NONGENA: Yes, it is Xanti whose mentioned his name.
CHAIRPERSON: When Xanti said that Card is going to sort you out, what did Card do ?
MR NONGENA: Card would beat us up.
CHAIRPERSON: With what ?
MR NONGENA: He would kick us, punch us. He was demanding the truth, so to speak.
CHAIRPERSON: What was the duration of time ?
MR NONGENA: It was over a few days. It is Charles and Hatanga that were there all the time. Card was not there all the time. I said that they must take a true report, put it on my forehead and rather shoot me.
CHAIRPERSON: Therefore, you’re saying that Card was there only on one night?
MR NONGENA: Yes, he was present the one night only.
MS MAYA: Thank you Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Boyi, maybe you can clarify the form of torture that was used on
you people. Mr Nongena said that a straight-jacket was used as a form of torture. What were they using with you ?
MR BOYI: They were beating us up, punching and kicking.
CHAIRPERSON: In your evidence you said there were three policemen, but the one you remember, is Card. You’ve forgotten the others. Could you give us a reason why it is that you would remember Card only.
MR BOYI: I remember his name because a lot of people were talking about card in a similar manner. This is why I did not forget his name. He was known for torturing people.
CHAIRPERSON: Xanti Sebe, known as Charles Sebe. Was he in King William’s Town or East London ?
MR BOYI: King William’s Town.
CHAIRPERSON: And Card ?
MR BOYI: He was stationed in East London, but I would see him often in King William’s Town, but apparently he was stationed in East London.
CHAIRPERSON: In your evidence Mr Boyi. In your evidence you mentioned Johnson Nongena. Sorry, it is the other gentleman that mentioned his name. Please give him the mike. Mr Nongena in your evidence your mentioned Johnson Nongena. Where you arrested together?
MR NONGENA: They were arrested before me.
CHAIRPERSON: When you were tortured with the method of a straight-jacket, was Mr Nongena there ?
MR NONGENA: He was there, but he’d been shot already. We were in different cells,
we were not in the same cell.
CHAIRPERSON: Are there people that you remember who are still alive, who would help us with this evidence, witnesses perhaps ?
MR NONGENA: The person who would help me has passed away. He had a car accident. He would help me, were he alive.
CHAIRPERSON: The last question, Mr Boyi. When you were arrested, you were at work ? Your boss called you and told you that the police had come to arrest you. Do you remember your boss’s name ?
MR BOYI: It was Mr Botha.
CHAIRPERSON: Which firm was this ?
MR BOYI: Athangkite is now referred to as water affairs.
CHAIRPERSON: You probably don’t know his first name because we did not know outr boss’s first names at the time. Who ? Botha ?
MR BOYI: No I don’t know him. We just referred to him as Botha. I don’t expect you to know because we referred to him as Baas.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for your evidence. It humbles us to know that this battle was fought from of old by elderly people like you, our parents. People under the impression that the youths in the 1980’s were the people of the struggle for liberation. As we are learning and growing within the Commission, especially in Pondoland, we heard elderly, elderly men who were fighting in the early 60’s on the mountains in Pondoland for liberation. That makes us realize that we are a people who sacrificed themselves from of old for the liberation that we have to-day. Thank you, Mr Nongena.
Even though you were touched deeply and you cried. We are not happy, they are happy,
they hurt us. We thank you that when you were asked to list your requests, you were altruistic enough to think of the other people in the village and not yourself. A lot of people are self-centered. If they need a mat that is that. They forget about the rest of the nation.
Your request that there be a monument for all those who passed on through the struggle for liberation. You said that there should also be a project that would help the people of the village and not yourself. There are only a few men like you. We should learn from you, so that we also can be honourable people one day. We thank you both for your evidence. We request that you now step down, knowing that you have touched us deeply. Thank you.
We welcome you, Mr Clarke. You have already introduced yourself, to us, but just for sake of record, could you please just confirm that you are who you are and the instructions that have been given to you.
MR CLARKE: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. I am, I’ve been requested to assist Mr Donald Card? at the hearing and the name is Clarke, the initial I.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
MR CLARKE: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Welcome, Mr Card?. We will request you to take the oath, so that the testimony that are giving is under oath. Over to you Reverend Xundu.
MR CARD?: (sworn states)
( The speaker’s mike is not on).
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Card? and Mr Clarke. I will, I will be asking Mr Clarke perhaps just to quickly address us on the procedure that he wants to follow, but before I do so, I would like to welcome you. We had some confusion when your name was
mentioned in a hearing in Queenstown by a certain Mr Yoyo . At that time we operated on the understanding that we are not required to give notification, but since then we have had a ruling of the appellate division which requires us to give notification of a person who is likely to be named in a hearing and who, according to the statement received by us is named as an alleged perpetrator, so we duly given you notification in this regard and you have indicated that you would like to come and give your side of the story to the Commission so that it’s on record and whatever decision we contemplate making on the matter, we have your side of the story and this is the opportunity for you to do so, but of course Mr Clarke will take his responsibility of choosing the matter that he would like to follow.
MR CLARKE: May I just clarify firstly, that the matter was postponed on Monday, I understand, until to-day, but the date and time of to-day of 11 o’clock was actually arranged with Advocate Sandi and it wasn’t that we weren’t here on Monday. It was actually a time arranged with Advocate Sandi to appear to-day, if I may just clarify that issue.
CHAIRPERSON: Well, we regret the misinformation that we received.
MR CLARKE: Thank you. The other aspect, the first aspect that arises. We were furnished with a summary of the evidence to be given by Mr Boyi and by Mr Nongena. We have listened this morning to their evidence. On the strength of the summary which was furnished to us, an affidavit was prepared by Mr Card?, by us, on behalf of Mr Card? and has been handed to the Commission and which I understand is in your possession. It dealt with the allegations as set out in the summary, although as it indicated, was a very brief summary, Mr Card? did the best he could to deal with the allegations. It seems
however, from listening to the evidence this morning from Mr Boyi particularly, that there seems to be a measure of deviation from the summary that was handed to us, in that the summary alleges that the incidents took place as is listed in or set out in Paragraph 1 of the summary, during or around 1963. As I understood Mr Boyi’s evidence this morning, nothing transpired , as far as Mr Card? is concerned, in 1963 but that the incident took place in 1966 and as such there were further allegations set out in the summary which obviously do not pertain any longer to Mr Card?. For example, if I may read the allegations contained therein that he was in 1963 severely assaulted and tortured. Certainly from his evidence to-day, certainly it does not relate to Mr Card? in any way and he says he was shot while being interrogated. He didn’t actually mention that to-day as far as I could hear and that was also alled he was shot in 1963. I’m not sure who to-day he alleges shot him or whether is still alleges that he was shot. He does mention that he was continuously harassed by, allegedly by Mr Card? and Mr Xanti Sebe. At times he visited in work but only, but he doesn’t allege that to-day as far I can see either. If I may lead Mr Card? to deal with the allegations as they have been put to-day.
Mr Card?, you’ve heard the allegations to-day. I think that it is common cause there was no allegation against you in respect of any incident in 1963 as the evidence was led to-day, and as I put to the Commissioner it was contrary to the, to the summary that was given to us, as to the allegations that were made. In any event, if we deal with the allegations, do you know Mr Makhi Boyi ? Have you met him before.
MR CARD?: I’ve never seen him in my life, Mr Chairman, members of the Committee. I saw him here for the first time, in fact I was looking around to see who were the, who would be looking at me to see who I was to-day to see whether I could identify and only
when they came up here, did I realize for the first time that those were obviously the people. I have never seen them in my life before.
MR CLARKE: Mr Card?, Mr Boyi ...
CHAIRPERSON: Well, just an interruption, Mr Clarke. I’m sorry. We are doing a very important work here. Perhaps the others don’t think so, but this is very important. Please give us an opportunity to do our work properly in, with dignity, with no comments from the floor. When the two gentlemen in front are giving their evidence. Thank you for your help.
MR CLARKE: Mr Chairperson, I’d like just to continue to deal with the allegations as they were presented this morning.
MR CARD?: Mr Chairman, I think what I should do, is deal with some of the issues that I had in my original statement and then I’ll, I can deal with what is being said here. I repeat that I do not know these two gentlemen, nor did I know the gentleman from, who made the allegation in Queenstown, Mr Yoyo. I’ve never, I’ve never seen them in my life before. Mr Chairman, I joined the Police Force in 1947. 1949, I became a detective and my duties as a policeman was to keep law and order in this country, in accordance with the existing laws. At no time did I consider that I should not take steps against those who broke the law, merely because they were fighting against the injustices of the apartheid laws. I want that clear. That was my duties at the time and when that did become an issue, I resigned from the Police Force. In other words, at a later stage in my life, I realized that in fact it was affecting me and I resigned. With regard to where I was and now at 66. I think, let me start off by saying that I, because I was, I was, I’m a Xhosa linguist, I was sent by the Commissioner of Police to various
places, throughout the country, and I must say, I think I was successful with regard to the cases I handled. I handles cases in Port Elizabeth, I handled cases in Cape Town, in Durban, Pretoria and Johannesburg. I was very well known amongst all the political people in this country. In fact I also gave evidence in the Rivonia trial, so I know my name was bandied about quite a lot and I can also say that there were times when I was in other parts of the country, that allegations were made against me and it was obviously a mistaken identity. I want to say right now, Mr Chairman, that I don’t deny what these gentlemen are saying, maybe they were assaulted, but whatever the case is, it’s mistaken identity. I was definitely not here. I have never worked in King William’s Town. There’s a possibility and the odd time that I passed through here. I want to say that I didn’t work with Charles Sebe. I went with him on one occasion, I was involved with him. We went to Robben Island in connection with ANC matters and not PAC matters. I went with him to Robben Island and we came back together, but I never worked with Charles Sebe here in King William’s Town. Gert Hattingh and I worked together on a sabotage case at Alice, where a pole was cut and at that, while we were together, he became a, well lets call him a confident of mine and he told me how he had smashed Allan Paton’s car windows up at Hogsback. From that day, Mr Chairman, we were in two different camps. We never sat together and there was no ways that I would have been involved with Hattingh after that, in fact, Mr Chairman, we involved in a Supreme Court case, because of that issue. I want to point that if these gentlemen, if somebody had said it was, it was Donald Card? and they are mentioning the name Donald Card?, it’s from someone mentioning my name, but not me in person. 65, you know, it’s very difficult now for me to, to, to sort of recollect. I went through old papers, in fact I’d given my attorney documents and they’re not really proper documents, they’re documents from newspapers, giving dates of where I was up until about 1964-65, so I haven’t been able to get all that sorted out now, but in 1965, Mr Chairman, I was involved when a PAC member, who was operating from Maseru, came back into this country and I arrested him and through information I got from him, I dealt with a lot of issues in Cape Town. I was in Cape Town quite a lot. I was in East London., I dealt with certain issues there. That was 65. 66, Mr Chairman, end of ‘65, ‘66, there were two gentlemen who were trying to reorganize the ANC organization throughout this country and I was involved in those cases, but I want to repeat, not in King William’s Town. I did not ever operate from King, I did not come from East London to operate in King, I came from East London to operate in Port Elizabeth, Cape Town, Johannesburg, Pretoria and Durban, but never in .. oh yes, and once in Alice. I was in Alice in March , 1963 when the pole was cut down there, but never in King William’s Town and if those gentlemen say that I, that I assaulted them, definitely a mistaken identity. I didn’t do it and I want to say, Mr Chairman that if I did do it, I would have been the first one to come to this Commission, to the Truth Commission and asked for amnesty. I would have asked for amnesty because, what did I, what would I lose by asking for amnesty. I would have come. I’ve asked for amnesty in another matter, but I would have come if there was any reason for me to come. I could never, Mr Chairman, ask for amnesty when I know I’m not guilty. I cannot associate myself with anything like that. I’m innocent, I’m going through pain because of the innocence in sitting here to-day.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Card?. Mr Clarke does that conclude your matter for now ? We are going to be raising a few questions from our side, and we thank you for
your submission. We have noted the comments that you have made, preliminary comments raising the discrepancy in terms of the statement originally, statement.... oral evidence which has been led here and will apply amongst that. Questions ? Mr Sandi ?
MR SANDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman. There is an old saying, Mr Card? that says, dead men tell no tales. I noticed that in your submission, you mentioned two names and that is, Mr Hattingh and Mr Sebe. I understand both men have since deceased. Is that correct?
MR CARD?: Mr Chairman, I didn’t mention them, they were mentioned by the statements that I got and I actually said that unfortunately, they are dead, otherwise they could have come here to tell this Commission what the story was, cause they could have said I wasn’t here. Now I never... I haven’t mentioned them. They were mentioned by the previous gentlemen.
MR SANDI: In your affidavit ....
MR CARD?: In my statement I have mentioned Maynard and Baba Goosen, the two gentlemen, I worked with all the time over that period.
MR SANDI: And they are both dead ?
MR CARD?: No, no, no, they’re alive. No, no, I.. the, the people that are dead, the mention Hattingh was associated to me by these two gentlemen and Charles Sebe are dead but I still believe that the officer in charge of the security at that stage, is still alive, he’s in Pretoria, but the gentleman who was in charge of me, who was an ordinary criminal investigation department..., he’s dead. That was Colonel Heydrech.
MR SANDI: Do you think these three old men have any particular reasons to implicate you in these matters ?
MR CARD?: I’ve, I’ve no idea, Mr Chairman, all I can say that is that there’s a mistaken
identity. It’s not Donald Card?. They mention the name Donald Card?. Mr Chairman, I can bring up books, all sorts of things. If you want to you can have a look at, at Sichaba, who mentions me way back. These comrades against apartheid. You’ll see that my name is mentioned in here as the person who in fact, created a lot of problems for the ANC in their early days, because of my involvement. It’s on Page 37. There are a lot of people that wrote about me and have spoken about me over the, over the period of time and know my name. I was the Mayor of East London. I got the Freedom of the City of East London. I’ve been in the eyes of a lot of people for a long time. Yes, I’ve fought against the sabotage laws, at least I’ve fought against people in bringing people to justice at one stage, and I was mentioned by a lot of people. These gentlemen could believe at this stage that they heard my name and that I must be the person, but I’m telling you, I’m not the person, Mr Chairman. I was definitely not here, and the Lord knows that as well.
MR SANDI: Before we proceed to the next question, can I ask, should we assume it to be a matter of mere coincidence that you have quite a number of people who mistake your identity. They implicate you in things you’ve not been involved in. Is it just a coincidence ?
MR CARD?: I can’t answer. Mr Chairman, I wouldn’t mind that this Commission could answer me on that one, cause really, I don’t know why they’ve done it. I can mention that I did speak to a member of the PAC who was in custody with them on Robben Island and he told me that they had mentioned that a Mr Stoltz was the chap who assaulted them. Now there is a Stoltz. He’s a retired policeman and he was here at one
stage and he’s at Port Alfred. I don’t know whether that story is correct but that is what I
was told by a member of the PAC who was in custody with them.
MR SANDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I will stop for a moment, maybe I will come
back for further questions. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Maya.
MS MAYA: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Card?, I only have one question for you. Was there another policeman by your name in the Police Force at that time, possibly based in the same area ?
MR CARD?: No.
MS MAYA: In fact that could have resulted in this mistaken identity ?
MR CARD?: No. I did have a son in the police force who was also a D. Card?, but he only came, he joined the police force many, many years afterwards. Not at that time at all.
MS MAYA: Do you have any idea at all what could have resulted in this mistaken identity ?
MR CARD?: If ?
MS MAYA: Do you have idea at all what could have caused this mistaken identity, as you call it ?
MR CARD?: I have no idea, Mr Chairman. I also want to say that I find it very funny that if people were put in straight-jackets and thrown into the Buffalo River, as was alleged and that they were shot at, that when the case came to court, that no mention was made and there was never a case, because if there was a case and I was a suspect, I would have been approached and I would have been warned in terms of the Judge’s rules.
Nothing like that has ever taken place, so it’s the first time that it’s now been brought out and I cannot understand why, because I want to say that although there were probably a
lot of injustices in the 1960’s and ‘70’s there was one organisation which was above any political issues and that was the Magistrates and the Judges in the courts and if anybody had laid a complaint at that stage and if anybody was shot during interrogation or anybody put in a straight-jacket and thrown into the river, surely to goodness, when they came to court on that occasion, the matter would have been dealt with and I find that one of the reasons I’m giving you now, was something strange from my side. Why wasn’t that done ?
MS MAYA: Thank you, Mr Card?.
CHAIRPERSON: Reverend Xundu.
REVEREND XUNDU: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I just want to know first from Mr Card? whether he would in fact remember the faces of all the persons who went through his hands in terms of investigation and interrogation.
MR CARD?: No, Mr Chairman, I won’t remember many of them but I do in fact even to-day remember a lot of the people that I dealt with at that time. I had an ability to identify and remember. Unfortunately, that the memory side is a little bit faded, even names now, faces still don’t, are not a problem but names have become almost impossible. I sometimes, I see a face and I think who is that and 10 minutes after that I’ll remember who that person is but really my memory isn’t so good anymore and I wouldn’t remember most faces.
REVEREND XUNDU: You realize that probably because of age, these gentlemen who were here, have also changed a lot, in terms of their features and probably the flesh on their faces, so it would be hard really to try and remember who they were.
MR CARD?: Mr Chairman, I can, I grew up in Transkei and I’m not a, I have no problems with faces, whether they’re white, black, brown or any other colour and I want
to tell you that if I had seen those 2 gentlemen that were here to-day, even though it’s 34 years ago, I would remember them.
REVEREND XUNDU: I just want to ask another question. Question is, was it common practice for police to rough up prisoners in order to get information from them during the course of your ... (interrupted)
MR CARD?: There were cases, yes, there were definitely cases like that, but it depended of course what they were questioning them for. I mean I dealt with people that, a large number of people and there were those, some of those who later, obviously for their own reasons, said that they were assaulted when they weren’t assaulted and obviously they do it for a reason because some of them talk to the police immediately and they have to go back and tell the story that they have, that they have spoken and in fact that they, and in fact that they, it was forced out of them. Many, many people. I can tell you many people that I dealt with were never touched. Mr Chairman, can I just tell one story, just to help you on that issue. In 1963, the 8th of April there were a crowd of PAC chaps who were going to attack East London and I went in amongst them and the leader of that, that group was Washington Siklese and I sat and watched him dividing the people into groups to go and attack police stations and I sat watching and I gave evidence before the court. He got 25 years imprisonment. Mr Chairman, he later came up. I went and saw him on Robben Island and he came to Grahamstown to give evidence and most, a lot of the people were allowed to go, move as they liked. They were wearing prison garb. They were serving terms of imprisonment. Siklese served 25 years imprisonment and because the others were walking around, he said to me, Mr Card, won’t you give me
1 night out in the Grahamstown township and I said to him, I can’t do that and he begged
me. Finally, Mr Chairman, I said to him, OK, you can go. Oh he said to me, you can trust me Mr Card?. That was the leader of the PAC in East London and Mr Chairman, I allowed him to go to the Township for the night. He took off his prison garb, put on clothes and he went off and he came back. Now I just want to say, if he is the leader of the PAC, I could do that to him, isn’t there a problem with what’s happening to-day ?
REVEREND XUNDU: Thank you. I just want 1 last comment. The comment is that in your remarks you’re actually saying that only persons of our region with integrity were the courts of law. The Magistrates.
MR CARD?: No, no, I didn’t say the only people, Mr Chairman, I said there’s one group of people that were, you, you couldn’t go against their integrity and that was the courts of law.
REVEREND XUNDU: In our experience with the police we have come across a number of cases in which a person is roughed up in jail and them he is taken to a Magistrate in the afternoon to give evidence because he must appear before a Magistrate within so many hours and as a person appears before the Magistrate, as he goes there, he’s going with 2 security police who will say to him, excuse my language. You tell the Magistrate that we have neuked you up, jy sal kak, because you’re going to come up, you’re going to come back to us. There are several people who, who would testify to that. The Magistrate would look at you and he sees that you have a blue eye and he doesn’t remonstrate the police about that but I want to say that we have had Magistrates also who have not been, who have not had any sense of integrity when it came to Blacks because I think they were in the same war. In a White/Black war. Now I would like to make that comment.
MR CARD?: Mr Chairman, unfortunately I, I’m not, I haven’t been sitting on a Commission to hear all these stories but I can tell you from my experience with a magistrate and the Judges, there was never anything like that. I had the highest regard for the magistrates and the judges and let me say that in the times that I had dealings with Magistrates, in fact I thought, on a number of occasions, there should have been guilty. Certain people should have been found guilty and they were actually found not guilty. I thought that, as far as I was concerned, justice was one of the departments that you couldn’t point a finger at and I might be wrong, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: You are raising ... Are you finished ?
REVEREND XUNDU:: No. I’m just wanting to say that the facts that I raised before the Commission and asking you, are facts which have a proven record too and so there is a conflict in people’s perceptions about Magistrates ... (interrupted)
MR CARD?: I put up my hands Mr Chair, I surrender on that one.
REVEREND XUNDU: Thank you very much. (Laughs)
CHAIRPERSON: June Crichton.
MRS CRICHTON: Just a short question, Mr Card?. In Paragraph 7 of your Affidavit, you speak about another team of men who were given the task of investigating the King William’s Town Police Station attack. Two parts to my question. The first one. Did you know who they were at all ?
MR CARD?: No, I know that Hattingh was amongst them, but I don’t know who, I can’t remember who that team was, but I know that there was, I was dealing with a, with a, with a, that very big issue in East London where we finally picked up, within a few
months we picked up over 300 well, 300 people, well about 300 people, so I was working
months we picked up over 300 well, 300 people, well about 300 people, so I was working
there all the time. I had no idea who was involved here, but I do know that Gert Hattingh was one of those who did work here.
MRS CRICHTON: And the second part of the question is just to ask you, who was it who was actually directing the operations in terms of you being kept in East London, others being sent to East London. Who was ...
MR CARD?: You mean to King?
MRS CRICHTON: Yes.
MR CARD?: As far as I know, I don’t know who dealt with that, who was in charge, but I was told on the night of the 8th, that I would be taking over the investigation of the East London, you know the East London case and I don’t know who gave the instruction for the other areas, but my local police officer, the one who I said is dead now. He instructed that I take over that investigation and bring it to a conclusion.
MRS CRICHTON: Thank you. Thank you Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Card, just one last question from me. We can spend the whole day raising questions with you and soliciting your opinions on a number of issues, but your case, as you are perhaps now aware, has become one of the more curious cases, especially in our region for this Commission. The key question is, who is Donald Card?, what is the truth about that. There is the picture of, on one hand there is the picture of Donald Card?, the hero, a man who lays his life on the line, sacrificing all in order to take that fateful step of trying, of assisting Donald Wood into exile. Donald Card? who we have to respect, to admire, to salute for tremendous courage.
Then there is on the other hand this other picture of Donald Card?, if you can excuse my words..., Donald Card?, the monster who terrorized freedom fighters in this area. Old peasant men who were trying to make a statement about the need for democracy in our country. How they were terrorized and placed under terrible conditions by that Donald Card?. The key question is who is the Donald Card? before us and as a Commission we have to come to an answer, one way or the other, on that matter. I’ve already informed you in my letter to you that it’s not only Mr Yoyo, it’s not only these two gentlemen, that there are several other matters which have not come for public hearing, which have cited your name, but I hope you remember the letter that I sent you in that regard.
MR CARD?: Yes. Mr Chairman, I’m still waiting for the copies of those letters too. Mr Chairman, can I say that it’s Donald Card?, the realist, Donald Card? and I, in my original statement you will see that I, I served in the police force and to-day, Mr Chairman, if policemen don’t serve the Government that’s in power, then you have no Government, you have a problem and I at that stage, not that I was backing the National Government, I was a policeman. You must realize, Mr Chairman, it was shortly after the war, 1946, my father was poor. I couldn’t go to University, I had to go and look for a job. If I wasn’t a returned soldier, I didn’t get a job. I ended up in the police force and I decided I would make a success of the police force, which I did, and Mr Chairman, I stuck to my guns. The law of the country was the law, but then as I became more mature ... (interrupted). I want to tell you who Donald Card?....
CHAIRPERSON: Can I just interrupt you at that stage ?
MR CARD?: I beg your pardon ?
CHAIRPERSON: I want to interrupt you at this stage, that you are describing. Did you perhaps in retrospect, look back into that period and find that in your zeal to make a
success of yourself as a policeman, you may have, in the process of that, actually have abused other people’s human rights. Is that possible ?
MR CARD?: No, Mr Chairman, I don’t believe I did. I believe I operated within the laws at the time.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
MR CARD?: I don’t believe that I, that I abused them. Then I want to say, Mr Chairman, that at a later stage I realized, through working with all the people involved, I realized that in fact that the apartheid system was an absolute disaster and if you remember that in the, it was in the ‘70’s already, that I started preaching and people were calling me a communist and a fight.., at least anti, South African anti-Government and all the rest of it, I stuck to my guns. That’s the person you’re dealing with, Mr Chairman. You’re dealing with a person who will tell you the truth and I’ve told you to-day what the truth is. I’m not, I beg to differ with you, Mr Chairman, I don’t see myself as the, I don’t know what you called me, a monster. I was not the monster, Mr Chairman, I was doing a job at that stage and if I was asked to do a job to-day, I would still do it. In fact, I wouldn’t mind coming back to the police force. We’d sort out a lot of problems, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Laughs. Ja, I regret perhaps, the use of that word. I was just trying to summarize the other picture that is portrayed by the statements before us. They portray the picture of a monster. I’m not putting that it’s, it’s what is portrayed by these kinds of statements that come forth.
MR CARD?: Mr Chairman, I was one of those in 1988, who went to Lusaka.
CHAIRPERSON: I remember that.
MR CARD?: To try and look for peace.
CHAIRPERSON: Well thank you Mr Card?, as I say we could go on the whole day. We have a very serious task before us as this Commission, to try and find the truth, not as perhaps as you perceive it, but as you and them will come to be reconciled in the truth. A truth that will heal the wounds of the many people in the country and perhaps deal with why people have this perception of you.
MR CARD?: Mr Chairman, I would like to have sat together with these two gentlemen and discussed these things here, in front of everybody. Let’s find out where we, where the problem lay, because the problem is not mine, Mr Chairman, I can, that I’m quite sure of. In fact, I thought these gentlemen would come in here to-day and say, no I’m sorry, it’s not that Card?, it’s somebody else. That’s what I believe to-day.
CHAIRPERSON: Well, thank you very much. Thank you, Mr Clarke and thank you Mr Card?. We hope that this is not the end of our meeting. We may have to meet again for a more in-depth look at this particular dilemma that we are in as a Commission on this matter. Thank you very much.
MR CARD? & MR CLARKE: Thank you.
