ADV NTSEBEZA
I believe you are also represented by Mr Brand, is that right?
MNR ODENDAL
Dis reg.
MR BRAND
That is correct Mr Chairman. I am here with Mr Odendal and the same procedures will be followed as the previous one, thank you.
ADV NTSEBEZA
Thank you Mr Brand. I will ask get advocate Potgieter to administer the oath.
ADV POTGIETER
Thank you Chairperson. Mr Cornelius Adolf Janse Odendal, will you please stand to take the oath? I accept you have no problems in taking the oath.
CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL Duly sworn states
ADV POTGIETER
Baie dankie, u kan sit.
INTERPRETER
Please be seated.
ADV NTSEBEZA
Now I believe that you are going to follow the same procedure as the previous witness. Mr Brand has indicated to me that you have a prepared statement and that you will read the statement into the record.
MNR ODENDAL
Dis reg mnr die Voorsitter.
ADV NTSEBEZA
Thank you sir.
INTERPRETER
That is correct sir.
ADV NTSEBEZA
You may proceed.
MNR ODENDAL
Ek, die ondergetekende
CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL
verklaar hiermee soos volg:
1. Ek is 'n volwasse man en 'n gewese lid van die Suid-
Afrikaanse Polisiediens. Gedurende 1986 was ek 'n majoor in die Suid-Afrikaanse Polisie, verbonde aan die Afdeling Onluste-eenheid, Westelike Provinsie, waar ek diens verrig het as die offisier tweede in bevel van die eenheid..
2. Ek het 'n kennisgewing ontvang om te kom getuig voor die
Kommissie vir die Waarheid en Versoening oor 'n voorval op 3 Maart 1986 waartydens sewe persone gedood is te Guguletu.
3. Uit die aard van die saak is my geheue oor die voorval wat meer as
tien jaar gelede plaasgevind het, nie meer so helder nie. Ek het egter my geheue verfris aan die hand van twee beëdigde verklarings wat ek met betrekking tot die voorval afgelê het onderskeidelik op 1 April 1986 en 15 Oktober 1986, sowel as die getuienis wat ek afgelê het uit die vervolging van die destydse redakteur van die Cape Times koerant, mnr A Weaver.
4. Op Sondag 2 Maart 1986 laat die namiddag of vroeg die aand is ek
te Wingfield deur Luitenant Liebenberg en Sersant Bellingham, wat beide verbonde was aan die Veiligheidstak, meegedeel dat hulle inligting ontvang het vanaf 'n bron dat 'n polisie Datsun E20 bussie wat daagliks lede en administratiewe personeel tussen Bellville en Guguletu polisiestasie vervoer het, na bewering op die hoeke van NY1 en NY111 Guguletu aangeval sou word die volgende oggend met die oog daarop om die insittendes te dood. Ons het beplan wat gedoen moet word om die aanval af te weer en die verdagtes te arresteer indien hulle sou probeer om die bussie aan te val.
5. Op 3 Maart 1986 om ongeveer 02h30 het ek bevel geneem van die
polisielede wat die verwagte aanval sou moes verhoed en die verdagtes sou moes arresteer. Die lede is almal ingelig omtrent die inligting wat ontvang was en ek het die persone opdrag gegee om op sekere stragetiese punte in die gebied waar die verwagte aanval sou plaasvind, stelling in te neem. Hierna het ons beweeg na die area.
6. Ek en vyf van die lede onder my bevel het posisie ingeneem aan die
oostekant van NY1 en onsself tussen die bosse versteek. Ons was in posisie teen ongeveer 05:00 die oggend. Ek kan onthou dat gerapporteer is dat die polisiebussie sonder probleme deur die kruising beweeg het en dat dit veilig die Guguletu polisiestasie bereik het. Presies wat daarna gebeur het, is ek nie heeltemal seker oor nie, maar om ongeveer 07:25 het 'n Datsun E20 bussie wat voldoen het aan die beskrywing van die aanvallers se bussie, van suid na noord stadig in NY1 voor my verby beweeg. Daar was slegs 'n nommerplaat voor aan die bussie.
7. Kort daarna het ek vier Swartmans sien loop in NY111 in 'n
westelike rigting. Hulle het NY1 gekruis en een van die mans het op
die noordwestelike hoek van NY111 en NY1 gaan staan en dit het
vir my voorgekom asof hy wou water afslaan.
8. Ek het gesien dat Kaptein Kleyn en twee van sy manne in 'n motor
in 'n oostelike rigting in NY111, die drie mans wat reeds besig was
om in 'n westelike rigting te stap, nader en voor die persone stilhou.
Kaptein Kleyn het uitgeklim en een van die mans het 'n voorwerp in
die rigting van die motor gegooi. Ek het onmiddellik aan die
persone saam met my geskree dat daar 'n handgranaat gegooi
word. Kaptein Kleyn het platgeval en daar was 'n ontploffing links
van die motor.
9. Al drie mans het in 'n noordwestelike rigting na die nabygeleë bosse
begin hardloop, en ek het gesien dat van die persone in Kaptein Kleyn se groep op hulle vuur.
10. Ek het opgespring en met NY1 in 'n noordelike rigting gehardloop.
Ek het opgemerk dat Adjudant Offisier Barnard en nog een van sy manne besig was om agter die drie mans aan te hardloop. Ek het opgemerk dat dieselfde wit E20 bussie besig was om in 'n suidelike rigting in NY1 die betrokke kruising te nader.
11. Terwyl ek hardloop het ek kort-kort sarsies skote agter my, naby die
betrokke kruising gehoor. My aandag was egter op die voortvlugtende handgranaatgooier. Ek het gesien dat hy val, maar hy het aangehou hardloop en na regs opgeswaai na die brug om te kyk of van die aanvallers nie aan die ander kant van die bosse uitgekom het nie. Ek het egter niemand daar gesien nie.
[En ek gaan vir u nou wys hoe ek op gehardloop het, ek sal weer terugkom. Die doel hoekom ek by die bruggie op gehardloop het, was om te sien of van die persone wat in die bosse in hardloop nie miskien aan die ander kant uitkom op die N2 waar die groot pad geloop het nie, ek het egter niemand daar gesien nie].
12. Nadat ek myself tevrede gestel het, dat my manne die situasie
onder beheer het, het ek teruggekeer na die kruising van NY1 en
NY111. By my aankoms het ek die verdagte wit bussie op die
suidwestelike hoek van NY1 en NY111 aangetref met 'n Swartman,
vermoedelik een van die aanvallers wat langs die bussie dood gelê
het. 'n Ander Swartman het op die suidoostelike hoek van NY1 en
NY111 gelê met 'n AK-geweer en drie magasyne onder hom.
13. In NY111 op die sypaadjie het ek nog 'n Swartman aangetref met 'n
handgranaat langs hom. Op die noordwestelike hoek van NY1 en NY111 is daar nog 'n Swartman aangetref met 'n vuurwapen op sy maag. Al die persone was dood.
14. Met verdere ondersoek het ek 'n Swartman op die noordelike kant
van NY111 dood aangetref. Dit was die persoon wat volgens my
waarnemings die handgranaat na Kaptein Kleyn gegooi het.
15. Verder die bosse in het ek nog twee Swartmans dood aangetref. By
die een het 'n pistool gelê en by die ander een tussen sy bene 'n
handgranaat.
16. Ek self het geen skote afgevuur tydens hierdie voorval nie, behalwe
dat ek gesien het dat die persone in Kaptein Kleyn se groep, vuur in
die rigting van die voortvlugtende handgranaatgooier. Ek het ook
nie gesien hoedat enige van die ander oorledenes gedood is nie.
17. Sover ek kan onthou was opdragte aan die lede gegee om te
verhoed dat die aanval uitgevoer word en dat gepoog moes word
om die aanvallers te arresteer, afhangende van omstandighede en
met begrip van die veiligheid van die lid of lede wat die arrestasie
sou uitvoer. Uit die aard van die saak, was die bepalings van die
Strafproseswet 1977 met betrekking tot die uitvoer van arrestasie en
die gebruik van geweld van toepassing op die situasie.
MR BRAND
Mr Chairman with your permission then will I hand in the signed statement of Mr Odendal and he will then answer any questions that will be put to him regarding this specific incident.
ADV NTSEBEZA
Very well Mr Britz - I mean Mr Brand sorry. Thank you - any questions from the panel - Mary Burton?
MS BURTON
Thank you Chairperson - Mr Odendal you mentioned the meeting that you attended on the 2nd of March [intervention]
MR BRAND
Excuse me Mr Chairman, can I just - I just want to arrange something here for the witness to understand the English questions - sorry?
MS BURTON
That’s fine - is that - are you hearing me now, or hearing the translation.
MNR ODENDAL
Nou hoor ek u baie goed.
INTERPRETER
Now I can hear you very well.
MS BURTON
Thank you, you referred to the meeting of the 2nd of March, which you attended at Wingfield and you mentioned the presence there of Lieutenant Liebenberg and Sergeant Bellingham. Can you recall whether there were any other people there?
MNR ODENDAL
Kaptein Liebenberg was daar en Sersant Bellingham was teenwoordig gewees, so ver ek kan onthou.
INTERPRETER
Captain Liebenberg, Sergeant Bellingham were there - as far as I can remember.
MS BURTON
And that was that the first meeting of that kind that you have attended, regarding this incident?
MNR ODENDAL
Dis korrek.
INTERPRETER
That is correct.
MS BURTON
Thank you, then when you were at the scene, at which stage were reinforcements from Murder and Robbery called for? Was that before or after the shooting?
MNR ODENDAL
Nee mnr die Voorsitter, daar was 'n beplanning gewees voor hierdie tyd, Moord en Roof se manne was die oggend toe ons halfdrie bymekaar gekom het vir die hoofbeplanning om elkeen te sê wat sy taak is, die stategetiese punte waar hy moet gaan staan, toe was Moord en Roof teenwoordig. Ek weet nie wie hulle gekontak het nie.
INTERPRETER
No, madam Chair, Mr Chairman - I am sorry. Planning was done beforehand and the people gathered half past two to do the main planning to decide where the strategic points were. Where they should be deployed. I do not know who had contacted these people.
MS BURTON
Thank you, then you mentioned, when the hand-grenade was thrown, did you yourself see that it was a hand-grenade?
MNR ODENDAL
Die persoon het 'n beweging met sy hand gemaak en toe hy die hand op bring, nog voordat die handgranaat ontplof het, het ek uit my eie uit gesê daar gaan 'n handgranaat.
INTERPRETER
The person made a movement with his hand and before the hand-grenade had exploded - I said a hand-grenade was going to be thrown.
MS BURTON
So you thought that it would be a hand-grenade and you instructed your people to take evasive actions.
MNR ODENDAL
Nee ek het nooit gesê hulle moet aanval, ek het net vir die manne wat by my in die bosse geskuil het, gesit het, gesê daar gooi hulle 'n handgranaat, daar word 'n handgranaat gegooi.
INTERPRETER
No, the people were hiding in the bushes, or rather, we were sitting and the bushes and warned them that a hand-grenade was being thrown.
MS BURTON
I see, thank you chairperson. I have no further questions.
ADV NTSEBEZA
Pumla Gobodo-Madikizela.
MS GOBODO
Thank you Chairperson. Good afternoon to you. According to your knowledge, are you aware of any involvement of Vlakplaas in the operation on the day - the 3rd of March 1986?
MNR ODENDAL
Ek dra geen kennis van Vlakplaas-mense wat betrokke was. Luitenant Liebenberg het vir my meegedeel hy was van die Veiligheidspolisie en Sersant Bellingham, ek het geen kennis gedra van Vlakplaas nie. Vlakplaas manne het maar die laaste paar maande of jaar in die koerante verskyn.
INTERPRETER
I have no knowledge whatsoever of members from Vlakplaas being involved. Lieutenant Liebenberg informed me that there were people from the Security Police, but I had no knowledge what so ever of people from Vlakplaas. The Vlakplaas member, their names only appeared - these last few years in the papers.
MS GOBODO
Thank you - our investigators have established that the occurrence book at the Guguletu police station - for March 1986 is missing. Do you have any - yourself, do you have any records that you are aware of the Riot Squads that we can perhaps refer to?
MNR ODENDAL
Daar was destyds rekord gehou by die Onluste-eenheid - [onduidelik] gehad dis korrek waar daar voorvalle aangeteken is van enige onlus-voorval.
INTERPRETER
Record was kept at the Riot Squad - they had a log book. That is correct, in which incidents were documented - any incident.
MS GOBODO
Thank you - just another question relating to my first question to you - are you aware, do you have any information about Askari’s ever having been involved in the operation in Guguletu on 3rd or March 1986?
MNR ODENDAL
Mnr die Voorsitter, ek het geen kennis daarvan gedra nie.
INTERPRETER
Mr Chairman, I have no knowledge whatsoever.
MS GOBODO
Thank you.
ADV NTSEBEZA
Thank you ma’am. Glenda Wildschut?
MS WILDSCHUT
Are you still referred to as Colonel or are you now called Mr Odendal? It’s - I am speaking.
MNR ODENDAL
Ja nee ek sien wie hier praat, u kan maar sommer sê meneer.
INTERPRETER
I can see you speaking ja - you can call me Sir or Mr.
MS WILDSCHUT
I am a health worker by profession, so I don’t really know very much about incendiary devices. But could you give me an idea of what kind of damage could occur when somebody launches a hand-grenade - just from your experience - what can happen when somebody launches a hand-grenade?
MNR ODENDAL
Dit hang van die omstandighede af - dit hang hoe ver jy van die handgranaat af is, hulle het my met 'n handgranaat gegooi en ek was ernstig beseer in 1985.
INTERPRETER
It depends on the circumstances. It depends on how far you are - they threw a hand-grenade at me in 1985 and I was seriously injured.
MNR ODENDAL
Maar as ek so in 'n kamer is en hulle gooi die handgranaat op die bed kan daai persoon gedood word - as jy 30 meter daarvandaan staan, dan kan jy miskien net 'n skrapnel wond op doen.
INTERPRETER
But if you are far, it can’t do so much harm, but if you were near, it could harm you seriously.
MS WILDSCHUT
But that is in relation to a person being close to the hand-grenade, but if it were to land on the ground or whatever, can you just describe what kind of damage there would be if a hand-grenade were to land?
MNR ODENDAL
Ek is nie 'n deskundige op die gebied nie, maar dit kan baie skade aanrig aan 'n persoon. Dit hang van die posisie waar die persoon is, as hy gestaan het of gesit het of gelê het.
INTERPRETER
I am not an expert, but it can do a lot of damage. It depends on the position where the person is standing. Is he lying, is he sitting.
MS WILDSCHUT
You mean the position of the person launching the grenade?
MNR ODENDAL
Nee die posisie van die persoon wat die handgranaat na gegooi word.
INTERPRETER
No, the position at whom the hand-grenade was thrown.
MS WILDSCHUT
Okay - I am not interested in an individual now, I just would like to get an idea of what the area would look like if a hand-grenade were to land in a particular area. Can you give me some idea of what it would look like?
UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER
If it would land here?
MS WILDSCHUT
Yes imagine a hand-grenade were to land near that pillar, for example.
MNR ODENDAL
Daar sal 'n gat in die vloer wees - sement - as dit sand is, sal daar 'n groot diep gat wees.
INTERPRETER
There would be a hole in the ground - there would sometimes be a deeper hole in the ground.
MS WILDSCHUT
Yes, a very deep hole.
MNR ODENDAL
Dit sal 'n diep gat wees ja.
INTERPRETER
Yes a very deep hole.
MNR ODENDAL
Afhangende van die handgranaat tipe - handgranaat tipe.
INTERPRETER
Depending also on the type of hand-grenade.
MS GOBODO
What type of hand-grenade okay I accept that and the pillar, what would happen to the pillar?
MNR ODENDAL
Dit kan die pilaar beskadig.
INTERPRETER
The pillar will be damaged.
MS WILDSCHUT
Can you describe the kind of damage to that pillar.
MNR ODENDAL
Dis baie moeilik vir my om dit te beskryf want ek - soos ek sê ek is nie 'n deskundige nie. Ek het nog nie 'n handgranaat so naby gesien nie.
INTERPRETER
It’s very difficult for me to describe that. I am not an expert - I have never seen an hand-grenade exploding so nearby.
MS WILDSCHUT
Ja - I am aware that you - you might not be an expert in the field, but you’ve obviously got many years of experience. You’re are a Colonel, you’ve obviously come across quite a lot of incidents where hand-grenades were launched or even in your training, you must have come across these incendiary devices - all I want - just to give me an idea - not exactly, but just give me an idea of what the damage a hand-grenade can cause.
MNR ODENDAL
Soos ek u reeds gesê het dit kan persone dood, dit kan 'n gat in die grond ruk, dit kan skade aan muur aantrek as dit in 'n toe gebou gegooi word, kan dit baie skade aangerig word, byvoorbeeld die vensters kan almal breek.
INTERPRETER
As I have already told you, it can kill people. It can make - cause a hole in the ground. It can do a lot of damage, it can break windows.
MS WILDSCHUT
Yes, so the windows will be shattered, that pillar would be completely damaged. There will be quite a deep hole in the floor here.
MNR ODENDAL
Nee ek sal nie sê die pilaar sal heeltemal beskadig nie, maar die pilaar kan beskadig.
INTERPRETER
No, I wouldn’t say the pillar will be damaged completely.
MS WILDSCHUT
Okay but that’s quite a big pillar.
MNR ODENDAL
Ja.
MS GOBODO
Now what were to happen if there were to be a very small pillar - about maybe just about this size? What would happen to that pillar?
MNR ODENDAL
Dis - dis baie moeilik vir my om te sê, dit - daar kan skade aan gewees het, maar ek - ek kan u regtig nie daar help nie, nee hoeveel skade nie.
INTERPRETER
It’s very difficult to say. Damaged would have been caused, yes. But I can’t - I really can’t help you.
MS WILDSCHUT
But from the movies I’ve seen in the American movies of what happened in Vietnam and so on. When I saw a hand-grenade being launched - I saw massive things being launched and the pillar blown out of their - would that be an accurate description of a launch of a hand-grenade?
MNR ODENDAL
Nee dit - dis wat ek sê dit hang van die omstandighede af, maar onthou in die movies act die mense ook baie moet u onthou.
INTERPRETER
No, as I have said, it depends on the circumstances.
MS WILDSCHUT
Okay sure - okay but I am just trying to connect my experience with what you are saying.
MNR ODENDAL
Ja.
MS GOBODO
You were watching the video did you not?
MNR ODENDAL
Dis - ja.
MS WILDSCHUT
At the place where the person who was doing the video - pointed out where the hand-grenade had landed, did you notice the damage that was caused in the area?
MNR ODENDAL
Daar was 'n gat as ek onthou.
INTERPRETER
There was a hole, if I can remember well.
MS WILDSCHUT
Yes, but it was very close to a little white pillar that was painted in white. There was a pillar completely in tact, standing right next to that little hole that you described.
MNR ODENDAL
Ja ek - ek kan nie sê nie, maar al wat ek vir u kan sê die handgranaat is gegooi.
INTERPRETER
No I can’t say. But all I can say is - that this hand-grenade was thrown.
MS WILDSCHUT
Okay, all right, except that for the record we notice that the pillar was completely in tact where the hand-grenade had landed. Thank you very much.
ADV NTSEBEZA
Now, I notice that it is already 1 o’clock and maybe let us take the lunch hour adjournment now. And we will return at 2 and we will carry on with Colonel Odendal. We will adjourn until 2 o’clock.
MEETING ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION
ADV NTSEBEZA
We still have witness, Colonel Odendal? I just have to remind you that you are still under oath and questions are now going to be put to you by advocate Potgieter.
CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL Still under oath
ADV NTSEBEZA
Advocate Potgieter.
ADV POTGIETER
Thank you chairperson.
Mnr Odendal, was u in die omgang terwyl u nog diens verrig het as 'n polisiebeampte algemeen bekend as Dolf Odendal?
INTERPRETER
Where you, while you were in service as a policeman, generally known as Dolf Odendal?
MNR ODENDAL
Dis korrek ja.
INTERPRETER
That is correct.
ADV POTGIETER
Nou u sê dat dis net uself en Luitenant Liebenberg soos u toe was en Sersant Bellingham wat teenwoordig was met die vergadering die aand voor die operasie, die 2de van die 3de ’86.
INTERPRETER
You say that it was only you and Lieutenant Liebenberg and Sergeant Bellingham who were present at this meeting, the evening before this operation. That was on the 2nd of March 1986?
MNR ODENDAL
Dit kan moontlik wees dat daar een of twee meer persone was, maar dis wat ek kan onthou.
INTERPRETER
This is as far as I could remember, but I think that was what it was like.
ADV POTGIETER
As daar - as daar 'n ander senior beampte teenwoordig sou gewees het, sou u seker dit onthou het.
INTERPRETER
If there was another senior officer present, you would have remembered that?
MR ODENDAL
Yes, I would have remembered that.
ADV POTGIETER
Iemand soos Kaptein Kleyn?
INTERPRETER
Something like Captain Kleyn or something.
MNR ODENDAL
Ja.
ADV POTGIETER
Was daar - was daar inderdaad enige kwessie van die Moord en Roof-eenheid by daai vergadering genoem gewees, want dit lyk dit was uself en Liebenberg en Bellingham alleen wat daar was dan - moontlik alleen. Daar mag moontlik iemand anders wees, maar nie 'n offisier nie, so dit lyk asof Moord en Roof nie verteenwoordig was eintlik nie.
INTERPRETER
Was there any question that the Murder and Robbery Unit was involved in that matter? Was it only you, Liebenberg and Bellingham - where those the only people present at the meeting? Where there other people? For example an officer? It seems to me that Murder and Robbery was not presented there.
MNR ODENDAL
Sover ek my kan herinner was hulle nie daar verteenwoordig gewees nie. Alhoewel as ek reg kan onthou, sal hulle ook die oggend daar gewees het, want dit was ons beplanning gedoen, waar hulle moet wees.
INTERPRETER
As far as I can remember they were not presented there. All though if I remember correctly they would have been there the next morning, because this was how we had planned.
ADV POTGIETER
Was dit - was dit die beplanning en Liebenberg en Bellingham gedoen het dat ons - u gaan vir Moord en Roof ook intrek in die optrede?
INTERPRETER
Was that the planning that you and Liebenberg and Bellingham did that you were also going to involve Murder and Robbery in this action.
MNR ODENDAL
Dit is nie wat ek gedoen het nie, hulle het gesê daar sal van Moord en Roof se lede ook wees.
INTERPRETER
This is not what I said.
ADV POTGIETER
Ek wonder wil u nie daardie mikrofoon miskien net so nader aan u trek nie, hy kan - hy kan beweeg - sit hom so nader aan u dan kan ons vir u duideliker hoor.
INTERPRETER
I wonder would you like to put the microphone nearer to you, it can move. Then we can hear you better.
ADV POTGIETER
Baie dankie.
INTERPRETER
Thank you.
ADV POTGIETER
Maar - maar u was in bevel van die optrede gewees.
INTERPRETER
But you were in charge of this whole operation?
MNR ODENDAL
Dit is korrek ja.
INTERPRETER
That is correct.
ADV POTGIETER
So - so wat het u beplan, het u beplan dat Moord en Roof moet ook inkom?
INTERPRETER
So, what did you plan? Did you plan to involve Murder and Robbery?
MNR ODENDAL
Soos ek u reeds gesê het, ek het nie Moord en Roof gekontak nie. Hulle was in die beplanning ook, sal hulle ook 'n spesifiek - ons is ingedeel op strategetiese punte waar die persone moet staan en Moord en Roof was ook daar.
INTERPRETER
No, I did not contact Murder and Robbery. In the planning we were divided up into strategic positions and it was noted where the people should take their positions.
ADV POTGIETER
Maar hoe kon hulle dan nou in die operasie gekom het as u as die bevelvoerder die persoon in beheer van die optrede nou nie hulle ingeroep het nie?
INTERPRETER
But how could they be involved in this operation, if you as the person in charge, did not involve them in the planning?
MNR ODENDAL
Luitenant het my gesê daar is ook mense van Moord en Roof [onduidelik]
INTERPRETER
Lieutenant Liebenberg told me that the people from Murder and Robbery will also be present.
ADV POTGIETER
So - so wat het u dan nou beplan op die 2de, want dit lyk asof Luitenant Liebenberg al meeste van die werk gedoen het.
INTERPRETER
So, what did you plan then on the 2nd It seems as if Lieutenant Liebenberg had done all the work beforehand?
MNR ODENDAL
Nee ons het beplan die aantal mense wat ons gaan inkry en waar elkeen moet 'n strategetiese punt moet inneem - waar sy voertuig moet wees, want ons het geweet waar die aanval na bewering gaan plaasvind.
INTERPRETER
We planned how many people would be involved. Where they would take up their strategic positions, because we knew where this attack would presumably happen.
ADV POTGIETER
Nou u was die tweede in bevel van die Onluste-eenheid op daai stadium.
INTERPRETER
You were the second in charge of the Riot Squad at that time.
MNR ODENDAL
Dit is korrek.
ADV POTGIETER
Nou hoe het dit dan gekom dat u daar is en nie die persoon wat in bevel van die Onluste-eenheid is nie.
INTERPRETER
How was it then that you were there and not the person in charge?
MNR ODENDAL
Ek was maar - as tweede in bevel van die Onluste-eenheid was ek die man wat altyd in die gebiede op die grondvlak die werkings verrig het.
INTERPRETER
I was there as second in charge of the Riot Squad. I was the person who had to do the work on grass roots level.
ADV POTGIETER
Dis korrek, ek meen u het 'n - u het - u was baie bekend gewees in die woonbuurte ensovoorts in daai jare - in die jare van die onluste.
INTERPRETER
You were well known in the townships during the time of the unrest.
MNR ODENDAL
Dit is korrek.
ADV POTGIETER
En u was bekend as Dolf Odendal ek meen - mense het u amper almal geken in die woonbuurt, nie waar nie.
INTERPRETER
And you were well known as Dolf Odendal. All the people in the townships knew you.
MNR ODENDAL
Dis korrek.
ADV POTGIETER
U was by baie optredes betrokke gewees.
INTERPRETER
You were involved in many incidents.
MNR ODENDAL
Ja ek was by baie optredes dis doodreg.
INTERPRETER
Yes, I was.
ADV POTGIETER
En daar is 'n hele klomp verhale wat 'n mens hoor van wat gebeur het waar Dolf Odendal na bewering betrokke was en so aan - amper - u was so bekend was u gewees eintlik maar in die...[intervention]
INTERPRETER
There were many stories which have been told about where stories about Dolf Odendal being involved.
MNR ODENDAL
En baie verhale wat nie getoets is onder kruisverhoor om te hoor dat dit die waarheid is nie.
INTERPRETER
Many stories have been told yes, but not proved.
ADV POTGIETER
Dis reg - nee-nee ek - ek sê - ek maak nie daai punt nie, ek sê nie dis die waarheid nie, maar dis net die beeld wat u gehad het op daai stadium.
INTERPRETER
I am not stating that fact, I am not saying it’s the truth, but that was the image that was created.
MNR ODENDAL
Dis korrek.
ADV POTGIETER
U was baie bekend gewees en dit is waarom ek geïnteresseerd is hoekom u spesifiek nou ingeroep was in hierdie optrede. Is dit as gevolg van u rekord van optrede of wat?
INTERPRETER
You were a well known man. This was why I am interested to know why you were involved in this action. Was it because of your record of action?
MNR ODENDAL
Nee, ons het baie - is ons ingeroep saam met die Veiligheidspolisie Deursoekingspan [onduidelik] en ander eenhede.
INTERPRETER
No, not at all. Often we were called in with the Security Police and other units.
ADV POTGIETER
Maar hulle verkies om u - die tweede in bevel in plaas van - u - hulle het u verkies bo die persoon wat in beheer was van die eenheid.
INTERPRETER
But they prefer you - second in charge to the commanding officer.
MNR ODENDAL
Of die persoon of waar hy gewees het, hy kan miskien op verlof gewees het of op 'n kursus.
INTERPRETER
Where he was at that time, I don’t know. He might have been on a course or he might have been on holiday. I don’t know.
ADV POTGIETER
Nou het u gesien enige persone word geskiet op die toneel?
INTERPRETER
Did you see that any person was hit or was being shot?
MNR ODENDAL
Ek het gesien soos ek reeds in my verklaring gesê het, die persoon wat die handgranaat na Kaptein Kleyn gegooi het, hulle het weggehardloop in 'n noordelike rigting - weg.
INTERPRETER
As I have already said in my statement, is the person who threw the hand-grenade at Captain Kleyn, ran away in a northern direction.
MNR ODENDAL
En toe is daar op die persoon geskiet en hy het - een van die persone - toe het die persoon nog weggehardloop het - het geval.
INTERPRETER
And then they fired shots at that person who was running away and that person fell.
ADV POTGIETER
So u het gesien dat daar word geskiet en een persoon val?
INTERPRETER
So, you saw that people were shooting and one person fell down?
MNR ODENDAL
Dis korrek.
ADV POTGIETER
U het geen ander persone gesien wat geskiet word nie?
INTERPRETER
You did not see any other person’s being shot?
MNR ODENDAL
Nee niemand nie.
INTERPRETER
No, nobody at all.
ADV POTGIETER
U kon uit die aard van die saak nie sien dat dit 'n handgranaat is wat gegooi word nie, nie waar nie? U was versteek in die bosse.
INTERPRETER
You could not see that it was a hand-grenade that was been thrown, because you were hiding in the bushes.
MNR ODENDAL
Ja maar waar dit gegooi is, ek kan nie die hand wat die beweging oorkom, het dit ontplof, toe weet ek dis 'n handgranaat.
INTERPRETER
I could just see from the movement that this man made and I could see the explosion - after it had detonated.
ADV POTGIETER
Ja maar ek meen dit is eers - dit is eers na die voorval gebeur het - nadat die ding gegooi was en ontplof het wat u nou gedink het, maar dis 'n handgranaat nie terwyl dit gegooi word, nie waar nie.
INTERPRETER
It was only after the hand-grenade had detonated, that you saw it? You didn’t see it being thrown?
MNR ODENDAL
Terwyl dit gegooi word, terwyl die man sy hand uitgehaal het en hy bring hom oor, toe sê ek daar gooi hulle 'n handgranaat, alhoewel ek dit nie - dit kan 'n klip ook gewees het, maar toe was 'n ontploffing daarna, toe was dit 'n handgranaat.
INTERPRETER
No, while the man took out his hand and he made this arm movement - I said, there he is throwing it. It could have been a stone, but then the explosion followed.
ADV POTGIETER
So u was maar net gelukkig gewees, u het reg geraai.
MNR ODENDAL
Reg geraai ja.
INTERPRETER
You were lucky, because you guessed correctly.
ADV POTGIETER
Nou daai persoon wat u gesien het wat geskiet word, wat nou gehardloop het, het daai persoon enige wapens by hom gehad.
INTERPRETER
That person you saw, being shot, who was running away - was he carrying any weapons?
MNR ODENDAL
Ek kan nie meer onthou nie.
INTERPRETER
I can’t remember.
ADV POTGIETER
U kan nie sê nie.
MNR ODENDAL
Ek kan nie sê nie, kyk u moet verstaan so 'n situasie gebeur vinnig, dis baie vinnig.
INTERPRETER
I can’t say. You have to understand, such a situation occurs very quickly. Everything happens very quickly.
ADV POTGIETER
Nou saam met u daar in die bosse was Barnard.
INTERPRETER
Together with you, in those bushes, were Barnard,
ADV POTGIETER
En McMaster?
INTERPRETER
McMaster?
MNR ODENDAL
Ek kan nie onthou of McMaster daar saam met my gewees het nie, maar Sterrenberg was saam met my gewees.
INTERPRETER
I can’t remember whether he was there too. Sterrenberg was also there.
ADV POTGIETER
En u het 'n - het u saam met hulle beweeg van waar u was aan die oostekant van NY1 oor na die westekant toe.
INTERPRETER
And did you move with them from where you were on the eastern side of NY1 to the western side?
MNR ODENDAL
Dis korrek.
INTERPRETER
Yes, that’s correct.
ADV POTGIETER
En het u op 'n stadium toe nou weg van hulle af beweeg?
MNR ODENDAL
Dis korrek.
INTERPRETER
Yes that’s correct.
ADV POTGIETER
En het u op 'n stadium toe nou weg van hulle af beweeg?
INTERPRETER
Did you, at a certain stage, leave them behind and moved away from them?
MNR ODENDAL
Ja - ja. Ek kan vir u meer verduidelik as u wil hê - dan sal ek opstaan en vir u wys.
INTERPRETER
I could show you again if you want to.
ADV POTGIETER
Nee-nee dis all right ons sal sien of ons mekaar nie sommer kan verstaan soos ons praat nie.
INTERPRETER
We see if we can’t understand one another while we are talking.
ADV POTGIETER
Hulle twee het in die bosse ingehardloop - hulle het verdwyn van u af.
INTERPRETER
They ran away into the bushes and you did not see them afterwards?
MNR ODENDAL
Dis korrek ja.
ADV POTGIETER
U het hulle nie verder gesien en gesien wat hulle doen nie.
INTERPRETER
And you did not see them afterwards, you couldn’t see what they were doing?
MNR ODENDAL
Nee.
ADV POTGIETER
Het u enige skote gehoor daar in die omgewing waar hulle was?
INTERPRETER
Did you hear any shots being fired?
ADV POTGIETER
Barnard en Sterrenberg?
INTERPRETER
There Barnard and Stellenberg were running too.
MNR ODENDAL
Terwyl ek gehardloop het, was daar so baie skote afgegaan. Ek kan nie spesifiek onthou of ek daar skote gehoor het nie.
INTERPRETER
While I was running, I heard so many shots being fired. I couldn’t specifically remember whether I heard shots coming from the bushes.
MNR ODENDAL
Terwyl ek opgehardloop het, soos ek sê ek het by die bruggie opgehardloop, het daar baie sarsies skote plaasgevind.
INTERPRETER
There was a lot of shots fired.
ADV POTGIETER
So u is nie seker of daar skote daar van daai - uit daai bosse uitgekom het nie.
INTERPRETER
So you don’t know whether any shots were being fired in those bushes?
ADV POTGIETER
Het u verwag daar gaan 'n skietery wees?
INTERPRETER
Did you expect that shooting was going to take place on that specific day?
MNR ODENDAL
Die betrokke dag?
ADV POTGIETER
Ja.
MNR ODENDAL
As 'n man met terroriste te doen het, moet jy dit verwag het dat daar 'n skietery kan wees, dis korrek.
INTERPRETER
If you have to do with terrorists, you can expect that there will be some shooting.
MNR ODENDAL
As die persoon nou nie oorgee nie, dan vind 'n skietery plaas, dit kan moontlik - dis 'n moontlikheid wat ek voorsien het.
INTERPRETER
And if the person does not give himself over, then you can expect and have to
foresee the possibility that there will be shooting.
ADV POTGIETER
Nou u was in beheer gewees.
INTERPRETER
You were in charge of this operation.
MNR ODENDAL
Dis korrek.
ADV POTGIETER
En u het verwag dat daar gaan 'n skietery wees.
INTERPRETER
You expected that shooting would took place.
ADV POTGIETER
Waarom het u toegelaat dat die polisiebussie daai oggend nog steeds daai roete ry?
INTERPRETER
Why did you allow the police bus still to follow that route that morning?
MNR ODENDAL
Om die aanvallers aan te keer, te arresteer.
INTERPRETER
Because we wanted to apprehend the attackers.
ADV POTGIETER
So - so u wou hulle uitlok?
INTERPRETER
You wanted to entice those people?
MNR ODENDAL
Nee ek bedoel nie vir uitlok nie, as 'n man inligting dis 'n plek wat geroof of aangeval word, moet jy as 'n polisielid stappe neem om daai persone te arresteer.
INTERPRETER
If you have information that a person or an object is going to be robbed, you have to be there to apprehend them.
ADV POTGIETER
En om onnodige lewensverlies te verhoed.
INTERPRETER
And to prevent a loss of life, is that also necessary?
MNR ODENDAL
Onnodige lewensverlies - ek glo dis korrek.
INTERPRETER
Yes.
ADV POTGIETER
So jy sal nie jou eie mense goedsmoeds daar in 'n situasie in stuur waar jy verwag hulle sal so 'n voorval gebeur nie, nie waar nie - as 'n verantwoordelike polisiebeampte?
INTERPRETER
So, you would not send your own people into a situation which you would expect that a shout out would take place - as a responsible officer, would you do that?
MNR ODENDAL
Ek verstaan die vraag nou nie mooi nie.
INTERPRETER
I don’t understand correctly.
ADV POTGIETER
As a responsible policeman, that where you are responsible for those people and you expect that shooting will take place, why would you send your own people into such a situation? Why would you allow the bus to follow that route?
MNR ODENDAL
Om soos ek u reeds gesê het om die persone wat die aanval loods om hulle te arresteer of in die hande te kry.
INTERPRETER
It is important for the people - for the attackers to be able to apprehend them, because you want to entice them?
ADV POTGIETER
So - so om hulle aan te lok?
INTERPRETER
Because you want to entice them.
MNR ODENDAL
Dis nie om hulle aan te lok nie.
INTERPRETER
No it’s not to entice them.
MNR ODENDAL
Nou om die regte persoon in die hande te kry.
INTERPRETER
It is to get hold of the correct person.
ADV POTGIETER
Nee, want u wil mos nou hê - kyk u verwag daar gaan 'n aanval wees.
INTERPRETER
Now, you expect that an attack will be launched and you want these people.
MNR ODENDAL
Dis korrek.
ADV POTGIETER
En u wil hê dat die persone moet probeer om hulle plan uit te voer sodat u hulle kan arresteer.
INTERPRETER
You want them to execute their plan so that you can arrest these people.
MNR ODENDAL
Dis reg.
ADV POTGIETER
En daarom stuur u nou die voertuig daar in sodat u kan hulle kry om te probeer om die voertuig aan te val.
INTERPRETER
And this is why you sent that vehicle there, so that you can entice them to attack this vehicle - is that not so?
MNR ODENDAL
As die voertuig deurkom en die voertuig word aangeval moet daar - moet daar opgetree word teen hulle.
INTERPRETER
If the vehicle is being attacked, you have to act against them.
ADV POTGIETER
Ja maar die rede hoekom u nie die voertuig gestop het nie, dis eintlik die punt.
ADV POTGIETER
Ja maar die rede hoekom u nie die voertuig gestop het nie, dis eintlik die punt. Want u wou gehad het dat hierdie mense moet die voertuig aanval.
INTERPRETER
Tell me the reason why did you not prevent the vehicle from following that route? Is it because you wanted those people to attack the bus? Why didn’t you stop the bus before hand, this vehicle?
MNR ODENDAL
Nee ek wil nie gehad het hulle moet die voertuig aanval nie.
ADV POTGIETER
Waarom het u dan nie die voertuig gestop nie?
MNR ODENDAL
Die voertuig gestop nie?
ADV POTGIETER
Ja.
MNR ODENDAL
Die voertuig wil mos deurgaan.
INTERPRETER
How could I stop the vehicle - the vehicle had to go that way.
ADV POTGIETER
Maar u weet dan nou die voertuig gaan aangeval word.
INTERPRETER
But you knew this vehicle was going to be attacked.
MNR ODENDAL
Ek het nie geweet hulle [onduidelik]
ADV POTGIETER
En u wil nie - u sê nou vir ons vandag onder eed u wou nie gehad het dat die voertuig aangeval moet word nie, nou vra ek vir u, waarom stop u dit nie?
INTERPRETER
And you are telling us today, under oath, that you did not want the vehicle to be attacked. Why didn’t you stop it?
MNR ODENDAL
Ons het die voertuig soos ek u reeds gesê het laat deurgaan om die persone wat die voertuig aanval, om hulle te arresteer.
INTERPRETER
As I have said already, we allowed the vehicle to go through, to be able to apprehend the attackers .
ADV POTGIETER
En omdat u gedink het dat - as u daai voertuig stop, dan gaan daar nie 'n aanval wees nie, nie waar nie.
INTERPRETER
And because you thought that if you stopped this vehicle, there will not be an attack - isn’t that so?
ADV POTGIETER
Dis mos logies.
INTERPRETER
That’s logical.
MNR ODENDAL
Ja dan is die voertuig deur, maar daar kan daar ander polisievoertuie deurgegaan het wat ook aangeval word.
ADV POTGIETER
Nee maar - nee maar u weet mos nou - u weet mos nou waaroor die aanval gaan. Dit gaan spesifiek oor daai bussie, wat op 'n spesifieke tyd in die oggend by daai kruising verbygaan.
MNR ODENDAL
Dit is korrek ja.
INTERPRETER
No, but another police vehicle could have gone that same route, but you know now what it was all about. It was specifically aimed at this specific bus which would have crossed that intersection at a specific time.
ADV POTGIETER
En dis waaroor u beplan het die vorige aand, u het die hele ding gedoen want u het betroubare inligting gehad dat daai voertuig gaan aangeval word.
INTERPRETER
And that was what you had planned the previous evening, because you had reliable information that this vehicle would be attacked.
MNR ODENDAL
Dis korrek ja.
ADV POTGIETER
En nou is die punt mos nou eenvoudig dat - of laat ek vir u so vra u kon - u kon daai voertuig gestop het nè.
INTERPRETER
And it is just simple to say, or rather you could have stopped that vehicle.
MNR ODENDAL
Daai voertuig kon gestop het, maar dan kan hy miskien die volgende week gekom het as 'n man so redeneer so u nou redeneer, dan het hulle 'n ander voertuig aangeval.
INTERPRETER
Ja you could have stopped it, but then the next - but if you reason like that, they could have attacked another vehicle the next week.
ADV POTGIETER
Moontlik - moontlik nie.
MNR ODENDAL
Moontlik.
INTERPRETER
Possibly, yes.
ADV POTGIETER
Maar hulle sou minstens - hulle sal minstens nie daardie spesifieke voertuig aanval nie, want u het dit gestop.
INTERPRETER
But they wouldn’t have attacked that specific vehicle, because you could have stopped it. But then you could have avoided that some of your colleagues would have been participating in a shout out.
MNR ODENDAL
Dis korrek ja.
ADV POTGIETER
Nou verstaan ek nie waarom...[tussenbeide]
MNR ODENDAL
Die moontlikheid - die moontlikheid het bestaan dat hulle kan aangeval word ja.
INTERPRETER
The probability could have been that they could have been attacked.
ADV POTGIETER
Nou verstaan ek nog nie vir u - hoekom het u dan nou nie maar die bussie gestop nie.
INTERPRETER
No, I still don’t understand why didn’t you stop the little bus.
MNR ODENDAL
U moet besef dat in daai tye daar terreur plaasgevind het, dit was die polisie se taak om op te tree en die persone uit te haal en in die hande te kry, want die aanvalle pleeg.
INTERPRETER
You have to realize that terrorism was occurring during those times. It was the task of the police to get hold of those terrorists, those attackers.
ADV POTGIETER
So u wou - u wou graag sien dat die mense hierdie aanval loods.
INTERPRETER
So, you wanted - you wanted those people to launch this attack
MNR ODENDAL
Ek wil nie sien dat die - as hulle die aanval geloods het soos hulle dit gedoen het, ons sou hulle gearresteer het.
INTERPRETER
And now if they had attacked the little bus, we would have arrested them.
ADV POTGIETER
En u het - u het eintlik as deel van die beplanning het u die polisiebussie ook in aanmerking geneem. U het beplan vir die polisiebussie ook as ek dit korrek verstaan van Superintendent Liebenberg.
INTERPRETER
As part of your planning, the police bus was also taken into consideration. You also made plans for this police vehicle - if I understand correctly what Liebenberg had said.
MNR ODENDAL
Die polisiebussie wat deurgery het.
ADV POTGIETER
Dis reg.
MNR ODENDAL
Dis korrek.
INTERPRETER
The police vehicle which crossed the road.
ADV POTGIETER
So dit was - dit was ook amper soos 'n Trojaanse perd daai ene wat daar deurgegaan het.
MNR ODENDAL
Nee ek sal nie sê...[tussenbeide]
INTERPRETER
That was actually like a Trojan horse which passed the inter section.
ADV POTGIETER
Die mense moet dink maar dis - dis die - dis die gewone polisie wat daar verbyry en hulle - hulle is niks vermoedens nie, dit was die idee gewees. U wou daai indruk skep.
INTERPRETER
And the people had to think that was the ordinary people going that way and they could not suspect anything. Was that the impression you wanted to create?
MNR ODENDAL
Ja as u dit so wil stel, kan u dit so stel.
INTERPRETER
Yes, if you want to put it like that way, it could be.
ADV POTGIETER
En eintlik - en eintlik was dit ook maar 'n tipe van 'n lokval, want binne-in daai bussie was daar mense wat gereed was.
MNR ODENDAL
Natuurlik was hulle.
ADV POTGIETER
Om ook aan te val.
INTERPRETER
But that was also a kind of an ambush, because in that little bus there were people who were ready also to attack?
MNR ODENDAL
As hulle aangeval word, moet hulle vir hulle lewens - dis korrek.
INTERPRETER
Yes, if they were attacked, they would counter attack.
ADV POTGIETER
Was die idee nie dat u in elk geval daai voertuig bussie - polisiebussie laat deurgaan het deur die - deur hierdie interseksie nie. Omdat u geweet het in elk geval die ding was so beplan dat u geweet het dat hierdie sogenaamde terroriste nie 'n kat se kans staan nie. Dit is so beplan dat hulle eintlik in 'n lokval ingelei word.
INTERPRETER
Was the idea not that that little police bus had to drive through that intersection - allow it to drive through the intersection. The planning was accordingly because these so-called terrorist had not the faintest chance to attack you.
MNR ODENDAL
Nee [onduidelik]
ADV POTGIETER
Daar is geen risiko - met ander woorde laat ek net voltooi, met ander woorde daar is geen risiko vir die bussie nie - die polisiebussie nie, u het klaar daarvoor ook beplan.
INTERPRETER
They were actually ambushed. Because you’ve already planned for that.
MNR ODENDAL
Nee ek het nooit daarvoor beplan nie, want as jy 'n persoon lewend vang, lewendig vang, en nie doodskiet nie, kan jy mos baie meer inligting uit hom uitkry. As u nou beweer ons het beplan om die mense dood te skiet.
INTERPRETER
Because if you arrest a person live, you can get a lot of information from them. If you’re implying now that we wanted to shoot them, to kill them.
ADV POTGIETER
Wat presies u weet - dis die ander ding, kyk u het die bussie sien u voor verby u beweeg.
Now, you saw that little bus passing by.
MNR ODENDAL
Dis korrek.
ADV POTGIETER
En toe sien u dat daar loop vier mense in NY111. U het gesê in 'n westelike rigting, met ander woorde van regs na links op daai - op daai plan.
INTERPRETER
Then you saw that 4 people were walking in NY111 in a western direction, from left to right, on that plan.
ADV POTGIETER
Stap hulle verby die interseksie.
INTERPRETER
They walked passed the intersection.
MNR ODENDAL
Dis korrek.
ADV POTGIETER
En skielik is daar hierdie verskriklike voorval wat gebeur.
INTERPRETER
And suddenly is that terrible incident that happened.
MNR ODENDAL
Dis korrek - die lede was al besig om te onttrek van hulle punte af.
INTERPRETER
Because all these people came from the places where they were positioned.
ADV POTGIETER
Maar ek meen u was - daar was soveel polisie - u het dit so beplan dat die mense kan nie wegkom nie, u het die hele - u het die hele toneel onder...[tussenbeide]
INTERPRETER
There were so many police that it was - and these people were unable to get away.
MNR ODENDAL
Dit is doodreg ja.
ADV POTGIETER
Ja.
MNR ODENDAL
Doodreg hulle kan nie, ons het dit so beplan dat hulle nie kan ontglip nie.
INTERPRETER
That is correct - we planned it so they could not get away.
ADV POTGIETER
Absoluut - ek meen absoluut, u het alles voor die tyd beplan.
INTERPRETER
Absolutely yes.
MNR ODENDAL
Dis reg.
INTERPRETER
Absolutely yes. We planned all this before hand.
ADV POTGIETER
Daar was geen - daar was nie 'n element van verbasing by u gewees nie, surprise daar was nie 'n element daarvan nie.
INTERPRETER
You were not surprised at all. There was no element of surprise?
ADV POTGIETER
U het die hele ding in beheer gehad, u het mense gehad wat saam met die sogenaamde terroriste was.
INTERPRETER
You had this whole situation under control?
ADV POTGIETER
En u was aan die ander kant gewees, daar was geen risiko vir die polisie gewees nie.
INTERPRETER
There were people who were with these so called terrorism. You were - the police were on the other hand.
ADV POTGIETER
So in daai - onder daai omstandighede ek dink u stem met my saam, u het al klaar so gesê.
INTERPRETER
There was no danger for the police involved.
ADV POTGIETER
Onder daai omstandighede, waarom gaan skiet u die mense dood? Waarom arresteer u hulle nie?
INTERPRETER
Under those circumstances - why did you kill those people?
MR BRAND
Mnr die Voorsitter ek maak ten sterkste beswaar teen hierdie tipe van vrae, die getuie het nou al herhaaldelik gesê dat die voorval was klaar gewees, daarna was 'n optrede gewees. In alle billikheid teenoor die getuie, daar moet nie woorde in sy mond gelê word nie, oor wat hy gesê het nie.
INTERPRETER
Mr Chairman, I object to these type of questions. This - the witness have said repeatedly that the planning have been done and this is what have happened. Please don’t place words into his mouth.
MNR BRAND
Dankie.
ADV NTSEBEZA
Advocate Potgieter.
ADV POTGIETER
I don’t - I don’t follow the objection Chairperson. There is an allegation that words are placed in the mouth of the witness. I think that is probably explicable on the basis that the questioning wasn’t followed. I never put any words in anybody’s mouth.
ADV NTSEBEZA
Mr Brand, what questions do you feel are being asked in such a way that words are put into the mouth of the witness.
MR BRAND
Chairman, the witness already testified and you can read it in his statement. He explained what happened and that when they were called to retreat that there was - there was an assault - plans on the - on the police. That is what the witness testified. And he explained it now over and over again. Now certain things is put to him by way of questioning and telling - you said this and you said this - isn’t it true? That is not what he said.
ADV NTSEBEZA
Advocate Potgieter, perhaps you want to rephrase your questioning in such a way it does not reflect these sort of insinuations that Mr Brand says it does. I haven’t got this - I have not reading through his statement now. Maybe you just want to rephrase your questions in such a way, but I think the questions are quite permissible for purpose of clarifying some of the issues - you want to clarify.
ADV POTGIETER
Thank you Chairperson.
Mnr Odendal kom ons kom nou weer terug voor die onderbreking.
INTERPRETER
Mr Odendal let’s go back to where we stopped before the interruption.
ADV POTGIETER
U het alreeds toegegee nou in ons gesprek dat u dit so beplan dat die polisie in beheer was van die - van die toneel.
INTERPRETER
You have already admitted now, during our conversation, that you have planned that the police should be in control of this whole incident.
MNR ODENDAL
Dit is korrek, die polisie was in beheer van die toneel.
INTERPRETER
Yes, that is correct.
MNR ODENDAL
Ons was besig om te onttrek, as die persoon nie die handgranaat gegooi het nie, sou daar geen skietery plaasgevind het nie.
ADV POTGIETER
Ja.
INTERPRETER
The police was in control. We were busy withdrawing and if this person had not thrown a hand-grenade, there would have been no shooting.
ADV POTGIETER
Ja, maar u sien dit is die punt wat ek maak, waarom was daar geskiet gewees.
INTERPRETER
That is exactly my point. Why did that shooting take place?
ADV POTGIETER
En u was - u het verskeie polisiebeamptes gehad op die toneel, u het die moontlik gehad om te verhoed dat hierdie mense wegkom as hulle wil wegkom. U kon die mense konfrontreer met die feit dat u in beheer is van die toneel. U sien want julle is - julle is omsingel van die polisie staan stil.
INTERPRETER
There were several police officers there. There was a possibility that you could prevent that these people could get away. You could confront them with the fact that you were in control of the situation. There were police surrounding you and they couldn’t get away.
MNR ODENDAL
Nee meneer ons het die [onduidelik] gesoek want as 'n man met 'n AK47 gewees weghardloop [onduidelik] - polisiemanne skiet, om nou te sê staan stil hier dat hulle jou in die kop kan skiet.
INTERPRETER
No, if a person had an AK47 gun and they ran to and fro and they could shoot you, it doesn’t work like that.
ADV POTGIETER
Wel - wel...[tussenbeide]
ADV NTSEBEZA
I think what I would personally also want to be clarified about and I think this is what Mr Potgieter is wanting to get at. If I understood your evidence well, and you’ll correct me if I am wrong, in - when you read your statement and when you were being asked questions by other members of the panel - it seems to me at one stage, when once your police bus had gone past the place where it was expected to be attacked and had reached it’s destination. You then - in all the areas in which you had been placed, in other words the police - began to take the view that the attack is not going to take place on that day. And it was at that stage that you, you as a person, began to see people walking on foot at about the intersection.
And I think what advocate Potgieter is trying to establish from you, is whether an effort was made at all by the police to arrest these people. For instance, was there any endeavour made through a loud hailer - seeing that you had surrounded these people from the description of how the police were placed.
Was there for instance a loud hailer that was used to say - we have reason to believe that you are the people who were planning to commit a crime - that you are so and so and so and so. But that we must warn you that you are completely surrounded - that you must surrender and if you don’t we will have to defend ourselves?
Was there anything of that nature that was attempted - when they were walking there. Walking, as I understand the evidence in a suspicious manner?
MNR ODENDAL
Dit - ons het nie dit nie gedoen om die mense deur 'n luidspreker te waarsku nie mnr die Voorsitter. Ek glo Kaptein Kleyn toe hy daar stilgehou het by die drie persone wat aangekom het, wil hy hulle ondervra en deursoek het.
INTERPRETER
We did not warn them through a loud speaker, because Captain Kleyn, when he stopped, he wanted to question these people and search them.
ADV NTSEBEZA
Now I don’t know whether I understand you well, are you saying that you did not want to indicate to them, through a loud hailer that they were surrounded? But why not?
MNR ODENDAL
Ons het nie 'n luid - ons het nie 'n luidspreker by ons gehad nie.
INTERPRETER
No, we didn’t have a loud speaker with us.
ADV NTSEBEZA
Precisely - is it not therefore, and I think this is what we would like to know - how were you hoping to effect an arrest on people who were as armed as had being described by you? To your knowledge this thing had been planned. Now, why were you hoping to affect an arrest on people who might resist by approaching them in the manner in which you say they were being approached by one of the police? … End of Tape 3, Side A … [indistinct] to make sure that from a distance you are able to indicate to them that they are completely surrounded. That they dare not move, that they should surrender.
MNR ODENDAL
Mnr die Voorsitter, dit het alles het binne of baie vinnig gebeur. Ons het nie eers geweet die persone wat daar verby staan is die aanvallers nie.
INTERPRETER
Mr Chairman, all that happened within a few seconds. We did not even know that the people who were standing there, were the attackers.
MNR ODENDAL
Eers toe hulle die handgranaat gooi, en op daardie stadium was die meeste voertuig al besig om te onttrek en die polisiebussie wat deurgestuur is, was alreeds by Guguletu polisiestasie.
INTERPRETER
Only when they threw this hand-grenade, we realized that at that stage the police were withdrawing and the bus had also - had also left for Guguletu at that stage.
ADV NTSEBEZA
But the question still remains, and I don’t want to be engaged in a debate of this nature. Here are people who appear at a place where you had laid an ambush. I am not saying this sadly that, that was what - that was what is intended. But you were there waiting for a bus to come. Which presumably would attack a police bus and you were ready for it.
Just when you begin to think that it is not going to happen, that maybe it is going to happen on another day, but whilst you are still in a state of readiness, you see a Kombi - just like the one that had been described - is going to be coming to do the attack. You see from that Kombi, people coming out, people who might or might not have been answering to the description of the people you are expecting, but certainly young men.
Certainly people who, in your own evidence, or in the evidence of others - are behaving very suspicious. Now what would the most natural reaction be of police officers who’s intention is to arrest suspects. Knowing that these people might well be the people - especially coming off a Datsun E20, such as you were expecting. Walking suspicious, more or less the time that it was expected it was going to happen.
I still ask the question, wasn’t the most logical thing to make sure that you confront those people in such a way that an event as has taken place, would not take place.
MNR ODENDAL
Mnr die Voorsitter ek het nooit gesê dat ek mense uit 'n voertuig sien klim het nie. Ek het gesê ek het in die bosse geskuil, mense was besig om op te breek en ek het gesien die mense stap verby. Ek het nooit gesê dat ek iemand gesien het wat uit 'n voertuig uit klim nie.
INTERPRETER
Mr Chairman, I never said, I saw people climbing from a bus. I was hiding in a bus. People were withdrawing. I saw those people walking by. I never saw any people getting out of a bus.
MNR ODENDAL
Hulle het oorgestap die een het gemaak of hy water af slaan, die ander het aangestap, Kaptein Kleyn het by hulle stilgehou, hulle het die handgranaat gegooi en net daarna het daar 'n woeste skietery plaasgevind.
INTERPRETER
One of them pretended to urinate. The others were walking on. Captain Kleyn stopped there. They threw a hand-grenade and then it was that this shooting took place.
ADV NTSEBEZA
Advocate Potgieter?
ADV POTGIETER
Just a minute - thank you chairperson, thanks for that indulgence.
Mnr Odendal u het nou gesê vir die Voorsitter dat u het nie geweet dis die mense nie. U het nie geweet dis die aanvallers daai nie.
INTERPRETER
Mr Odendal you have just said - just told the Chairman that you did not know those were the people you were waiting for. You did not know those were the attackers.
ADV POTGIETER
Maar dis mos nie korrek nie.
INTERPRETER
But that is not correct.
MNR ODENDAL
Ek sê daar het mense wat verdagt voorgekom het, ek het nie geweet hulle is die aanvallers nie, ek het maar eers geweet hulle is die aanvallers na hulle die handgranaat gegooi het..
INTERPRETER
I said people who looked suspicious. I did not say they were not the attackers. I only realized that they were the attackers after they had thrown the hand-grenade.
ADV POTGIETER
Dis - dit is die punt wat ek met u wil debateer - dis nie korrek nie, want sersant Mbelo 'n deel van u eenheid was, optreder, u was in beheer van hulle gewees. Hy het die mense geken. Hy het die aanvallers het hy geken - hy het geweet dis die aanvallers daai wat daar afgeloop kom.
INTERPRETER
That is not correct, because Sergeant Mbelo, a part of your Unit, you were in charge of these people, they knew - he knew those people. He knew the attackers - he identified them.
MNR ODENDAL
Maar ek ken nie eers vir Mbelo nie.
INTERPRETER
I don’t know Sergeant Mbelo.
ADV POTGIETER
Dis - dis baie eienaardig.
INTERPRETER
This is really strange.
MNR ODENDAL
Ek ken nie Mbelo nie.
INTERPRETER
I don’t know Mbelo.
MNR ODENDAL
Ek ken ook nie vir Bellingham nie.
INTERPRETER
I don’t know Bellingham.
ADV POTGIETER
Want u sien dit is die - dit is die eienaardigheid wat aan u gestel was deur die Voorsitter.
INTERPRETER
You see, that is what is so strange.
ADV POTGIETER
Ek probeer net daardie prentjie finaal inkleur dat hier kom Kaptein Kleyn en hy spring uit sy voertuig uit en hy konfrontreer sommer die mense. Dieselfde mense wie bekend is aan lede van die span waarin u van beheer is dat hulle die aanvallers is. So hy gaan konfronteer hulle sommer miskien uit die bloute uit. En nou gooi hulle die handgranaat - nou skiet - nou word hulle stukkend geskiet.
INTERPRETER
This is what the Chairman tried to explain. I want to give you the full picture. Now, here Captain Kleyn jumps from a vehicle - he confronts those people. The same people known to members of this team, who you were commanding, they identified them as the attackers. And suddenly he started shooting. And then they threw this hand-grenade and then they were shot to pieces.
MNR ODENDAL
Maar Mbelo was mos nie by my om vir my te sê dis die mense nie.
INTERPRETER
Mbelo wasn’t there to tell me those were the people.
Mbelo was mos nie by my in die voertuig nie, ek het mos in die bos gelê.
INTERPRETER
Mbelo wasn’t with me in my vehicle.
ADV POTGIETER
Maar u sien dit is die eienaardig wat ek aan u stel, daar was mense op die toneel, deel van u span wat die mense geken het en dit was die maklikste ding op die aarde om vir hulle te los om observasie te doen, en te kyk of dit inderdaad die aanvallers is daardie en dan - dan tree jy op volgens daardie kennis. Dan gaan jy nie mense konfronteer nie, uitklim en hulle gaan ondervra en visenteer soos u gesê het wat Kaptein Kleyn wou gedoen het nie.
INTERPRETER
But this is what was so strange. There were people on the scene, people in your team, who could identify those people. It was the easiest thing to leave them to identify those people and then act accordingly. Then you wouldn’t confront those people - like you said Captain Kleyn wanted to do.
MNR ODENDAL
Hulle was nie by op die toneel nie, ons het op sekere strategetiese punte uitmekaar uit - weg van mekaar af gewees, dit was nie almal hier op mekaar by die hoek nie. U sien dis die...[tussenbeide]
INTERPRETER
We were positioned in certain strategic places. We were not all together on that one specific point.
ADV POTGIETER
Ek besef dit.
INTERPRETER
I realize that.
ADV POTGIETER
Ek besef dit - ek besef dit, ek vra net vir u die eienaardigheid van die optrede om die mense net sommer skielik te gaan konfronteer, waar jy eintlik hulle wil arresteer. En u sê maar u het nie geweet wie die mense is nie.
INTERPRETER
I realize that and I am just asking - it is extraordinary just to suddenly confront those people. Where actually you just wanted to arrest them. And you said you did not know who those people were.
MNR ODENDAL
Maar wat moet Kaptein Kleyn gedoen het, hy moet tog daar by die mense stilgehou het en hulle ondervra het omdat hulle verdagt lyk.
INTERPRETER
What did Captain Kleyn then had to do? He had to stop, he had to question them.
ADV POTGIETER
Maar - maar hy was mos deel van 'n span gewees. Hy was mos nog onder - onder bevel gewees, hy het mos - kan mos nie net sommer doen wat hy wil nie.
INTERPRETER
But he was part of a team, he was under instructions. He couldn’t do whatever he liked.
MNR ODENDAL
Ja.
ADV POTGIETER
Hy kon - hy kon mos nou - hy het - was hy in radio verbinding met u gewees as die bevelvoerder?
INTERPRETER
Was he connected by radio - connected by radio to you - you, as the commanding officer?
MNR ODENDAL
Ja ek glo hy was in 'n - ons het radio verbinding met mekaar gehad.
INTERPRETER
Yes, we were connected by radio.
ADV POTGIETER
Het hy aan u gerapporteer dat Kolonel hier is nou vier mense wat vir my baie agterdogtig voorkom, dit lyk vir my hulle kan die aanvallers wees, waar is Mbelo of waar is die mense wat die mense ken dat hulle net kyk of hulle die mense is of nie, het hy so iets gedoen?
INTERPRETER
Did he report to you that Colonel, here are 4 people who look very suspicious? They could be the attackers. Where is this person who could identify them?
MNR ODENDAL
Dit was nie aan my gerapporteer nie, maar dit gebeur so vinnig, daai wat u nou alles sê dis maklik as dit na die voorval om dit nou te kom sê ons moet dit of dat gedoen het, maar wat die voorval plaasgevind het, dit is heeltemal iets anderste.
INTERPRETER
No, there was no time to report back to me. It is easy to say this afterwards, but everything had happened so quickly - it was completely different.
ADV POTGIETER
Ja maar die mense het mos nie u aangeval nie, hulle het afgestap gekom in die pad, een staan en water af slaan daar in die hoek en die ander drie stap lekker aan en hulle val niemand nie, nou skielik spring Kaptein Kleyn uit, en hy wil hulle gaan visenteer. Dit is eienaardig, dis al wat ek aan u wil stel.
INTERPRETER
But the people did not attack you. They were walking down the road. One was urinating. They did not attack anybody and now suddenly Captain Kleyn jumps from the vehicle and he wanted to confront them. This is strange.
MNR ODENDAL
Dit kan vir u eienaardig wees om te klink, die mense het hom aangeval - 'n handgranaat na hom gegooi.
INTERPRETER
It might sound strange, but these people attack him. But these people [indistinct] at him.
ADV POTGIETER
Ja dis natuurlik nou op die polisieweergawe nè.
INTERPRETER
This is according to the police version.
MNR ODENDAL
Dis op my weergawe en dis wat daar gebeur het, want ek was op die toneel.
INTERPRETER
This is my version, and that is what had happened, because I was present there.
ADV POTGIETER
Ja, thanks.
ADV NTSEBEZA
Thank you Mr Odendal. You will now be excused and thank you for having come.
MNR ODENDAL
Dankie mnr die Voorsitter.
INTERPRETER
Thank you Mr Chairman.
