DR ORR
Andile I just want to check that you can hear me through [indistinct] , can you hear me now? You can hear the translation coming through?
MR NDINISA
Yes, I can hear.
DR ORR
[indistinct] who has come with you today to offer you support. Before we hear your evidence can I ask you to stand to take the oath.
ANDILE HUBERT NDINISA Duly sworn states
DR ORR
Andile we have heard yesterday and again today about the terrible violence that effected Mbekweni in 1985 and 1986. And in December 1985 you to were affected by that violence and very badly injured. So I’m going to ask you to tell us what happened to you that day in December. In your own words but if you can start off by just telling us a little bit about yourself, whether your a student or whether your working, how old you are and then move into the story of December 1985.
MR NDINISA
I was a student, I was going Std 5 and was 16 years old at the time. And in December month very early in the morning I was sent somewhere. On a Saturday and I - when I got to the place I saw a crowd of people coming, rushing towards me and I heard some gun shots and I ran away. But unfortunately I ran towards the person who was shooting. I got into one house having knocked, whilst knocking I couldn’t see any people and I heard someone talking saying that I was one of the people who was being looking - wanted.
Then I felt something hitting me on my back and once more another one hit me on the back - 3 times I was hit on the back. Then I fell and collapsed, then this particular person jumped over the fence - it was a policeman and he continued to shoot me and he shot me 4 times in addition to the 3 wounds I had. And then the owner of the house intervened.
DR ORR
Take your time Andile, I can see that this is very difficult for you.
MR NDINISA
Then the owner of that house intervened and asked the police not to kill me. But this police threatened to kill him and even said that he might be having a deal with us perhaps. After that they quarreled and the policeman asked me - asked them to remove me and take me home. And the owner of the house said I witnessing and I’m going to give report about all what I’ve seen.
That was the last time I had - them I lost consciousness. I heard from the hospital that I lost my mind - I don’t know what happened to me. So I was in hospital for quite some time and my mind was not functioning well. And even when my family members used to visit me they would not be allowed to talk to me.
They couldn’t speak to me - they could not speak to me because I was in a bad state. I was in Tygerberg Hospital under the security guard and my mother asked them why I was under police guard. They said it’s because I had attempted to burn a house that belonged to the policeman. And my mother used to be very angry about this.
So they asked my mother to wait for me to recover, so I kept in hospital for a while and one day policemen came to the hospital. They were coming from Paarl and they took me from Tygerberg, despite that the doctor who was in charge objected to all this. Because I was still in a bad condition, then these policemen said they wanted me but they told lies to the doctor which means that they had intention that I was going to die on my way.
So we used a road that was unknown to me, we drove trough farms and these policemen who are in the front of the van were laughing at me. And I still had stitches on my operation so they took me to a Police Station. I then made a request that they should inform my family but they told me that my family knew that I was there.
At night I complained that I was in pain, I wanted to go back to hospital and they said they would see. Then the head of the Police Station asked them not to keep me there longer because he was going to be held responsible. So I was removed in an ambulance and taken back to Tygerberg Hospital.
And all the time I was under police guard and whenever I would want to go to the toilet I would not be allowed to. I then asked that they should give me some crutches and then the doctors told me that it wasn’t time yet. So I had to move on a wheelchair and some other times the police would come again and take me to the Police Station. And my mother was not aware of all this up and down and ultimately they got a lawyer that was organized by the UDF and this lawyer asked that I should be sent back to the Tygerberg Hospital and to the General Hospital as well.
So according to my records it showed that I was in hospital for 21 days and one other time they discovered that I had 2 bullets that were imbedded in my spinal cord so I had to be operated on to take these bullets out. But my left leg was giving trouble, I could not walk properly and them my mother - they wanted to amputate my leg but I said I didn’t want them to.
DR ORR
I want to ask a few questions just to be clear in my mind exactly what happened that night. You were running away and knocking at the door of a house to seek safety and then you were shot in the back. And you then fell down and the policeman came up to you and shot again - another 4 times while you lying on the ground.
MR NDINISA
Yes.
DR ORR
Do you know the name of that policeman who shot you? What is his name?
MR NDINISA
It was Abel Ntlati.
DR ORR
[indistinct] in Mbekweni or in Paarl?
MR NDINISA
Yes, he’s still there.
DR ORR
Was there ever a court case brought against Abel Ntlati?
MR NDINISA
There was a court case and he said the - I was shot by the head of the detectives who was out of duty - he was off duty at the time and them it ended there. So that lawyer asked my mother to institute a claim but my mother said she did not have the money to pay the lawyer. It would be very expensive so some people offered some help.
So we went to some offices in Cape Town - we filled in some forms and they said they were going to call us after 6 months to tell us when we were going to appear in court and they said they were going to find out how much the policemen was getting as a salary but for 2 years we did not get any response. When I asked my mother to make a follow up, my mother refused because she said they were fooling around so we just left everything like that.
As I am growing up some people are asking me to pursue the matter. I did go to that lawyer and that lawyer said he did not succeed and yet he spent a lot of his money because the people who had instituted the claim just left everything behind. So he advised me to go to the lawyers for Human Rights, then I did not do that because I felt even my mother was not concerned about this whole matter.
DR ORR
You say that you were a student at the time that you were shot, did you go back to school afterwards?
MR NDINISA
I was discharge from hospital in March and I could still walk and my mother said they were going - not going to readmit me at school because I had gone mad at a certain stage.
DR ORR
Andile I can see this is very painful for you to talk about. If you’d rather not answer the questions you can just say so.
MR NDINISA
So my mother said they were not going to readmit me at school because I had gone mad, then the principal had readmitted me to school. But at school the operations were giving me some problems so I could not sit for a very long time. So I then decided to leave school, then the following year I went back to school and I passed my Std 5 and continued with my education. Then in 1987 I just took a decision to leave school and go to work.
So I stopped going to school, so my mother suggested that I should go to social workers and I did go and they said they could not help me with my case. So they - they promised to send me to Tygerberg. So in [indistinct] I started receiving the disability grant and I went back to school and I passed Std 7, Std 8, Std 9 and last year I was doing my Std 10. But I failed two subjects.
DR ORR
It’s - it’s remarkable that after the experience you went through you have gone back to school and I’m sure you will pass those 2 subjects and get your Std 10. I’d like to ask your mother now if she would like to add anything. She hasn’t been sworn in but if she wants to say something, we can go that.
Mr Landu can you give Ms Dinwa some headphones please. Can we just check if those headphones are working. Are those headphones working? Ms Dinwa can you hear me through the headphones? Sorry Ms Ndinisa, I’m calling you by the wrong name, Ms Ndinisa can you hear me through the headphones?
MS NDINISA Duly sworn states
DR ORR
Can you go ahead and give us any additional information which you would like us to have about your son.
MS NDINISA
On a Sunday, in the morning I sent him to my sister to go and get my shoes but he did not come back for a long time and at 9 o’clock I started to panic. I then got to hear that there was some children who had been shot at V section and I felt unhappy.
Then in the afternoon I went to my sister’s place to find out about Andile and my sister told me that Andile had not reached her place. And so I told her that I had sent Andile to her place. Then I was shown where these children had been shot, then other children informed me that there was one child who had been shot and his name Andela but the person who knew best about this was Ms Lando and there were police that were taking guard.
So I went to Mr Lando’s place past Ngewu’s family and I asked for their on with the name Andile and they also told me about their confusion they had about this name but referred me to Mr Lando’s place. And I went there and I found his wife and he said he had seen the person who had been shot at section L and he described the person. Then I said that is my son, then I asked him what he had done, then he said he had telephoned for the ambulance.
So I went back to my sister but my sister said the person who had been shot was not my Andile because the person he had seen was not there - my son. So I went back to my house and I didn’t say anything to my mother but talked to my brother and Andile’s father. As we were walking up the white people were throwing tear gas and I was crying. So Andile’s father came late in the day and I was intending to get to the Tygerberg Hospital. I decided to go to Tygerberg Hospital but they had given a wrong name.
Then I decided to go and look at the person, I went into the ward and I saw that there was a policeman that was on guard. And I asked this policeman whether he was still alive. There were some breathing devises that he was using so the doctor asked me not to talk to him because he was in a bad state and I was crying but the doctor asked me to leave and go home.
In the morning I went to the advise office and - to give them a report that I had seen Andile. I went to the Police Station and I asked for the head of the police and the Investigating Officer and I was told that it was - it was Willemse but there was not case as yet. So I met Willemse and he told me that he was busy so I kept on visiting my son in Tygerberg. So one Saturday I went to the hospital and I was told that Andile had been discharged - in fact he had been taken away by the police from Paarl.
And queried why they could do that because he still had this bullet on his back. Than I got onto a train and went to the Police Station where I found 2 ladies and - who said to me that there was no hope that my son was going to leave. And they had - Andile had asked these 2 ladies to tell me that he was in pain. So I asked the police to allow me to see my son but they refused. Then I talked to Randindi to take the food to Andile, then he asked me to take the fruit away but took the other food.
On my way home I heard some people calling from the cells and they told me that Andile was in a very bad state. He couldn’t do anything for himself - they were washing him and they asked me to do something. So on Monday morning I went to see Mr Willemse at the Police Station, so Randindi went to look for Mr Willemse and I went up to the 3rd floor to meet him. And I asked him whether he wanted that my son should die - should die.
Then he said my son should tell them the truth, who had sent them to go and burn the house. Then I told them that my son knew nothing about that - I sent him to my sister’s house. Then I warned him that I was going to send them to court and them he said to me I should go away and they were going to take my son back to Tygerberg.
So when I phoned Tygerberg I was told that Andile was back there, Andile was in hospital and them early in the morning at 5 o’clock some policemen came to our house asking for Nogene and my mother came to me and showed them into my room and they asked me - they said they wanted to talk to me. And I didn’t want to come out. There were a lot of these white policemen but Willemse was not amongst them.
I refused to go with them, and my brother insisted that they should talk there at home so they left me. The following day they came back and they asked for my ID book and they asked for my name but I told them that my name is not Gene and that name does not appear on my ID book. But one of them said this is the person we are looking for. So I put on a coat and shoes and got into their van, they drove round the location until we got to the Police Station at about 7 o’clock in the morning. These white persons would be coming to me asking me why I was sitting there.
I would tell them I was told to sit there, after a long time April Thladi with Willemse came stood at the door and looked at me and they called me. We went up to the upper floors of the Police Station and they asked me about Marchels, I told them I knew nothing about Marchels. They asked me about my children, then I said I knew nothing about my - the activities of my children.
So they wanted a lot of information about what was happening in the location, about my children’s activities. Then they said they were going to send me to Pollsmoor, then they took me to Pollsmoor and kept me there for 3 months but after some time I was released. And Andile too was released, there - Andile was accused of burning a house and then there was a lawyer representing him.
And so Andile was released, so a certain man from Cape Town [indistinct] came to explain to me that the State was saying that Thladi was off duty at the time. So I wanted to find out why he had used a gun when he was off duty.
DR ORR
[indistinct] you and your son have both been through very difficult times. I have now - I have no further questions and will hand you back to the Chair.
MS GOBODO
Thank you Wendy, anybody with questions?
UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER
Andile just a number of short questions. You said that you are taking a computer course at the moment, do you have an income - are you able to work?
MR NDINISA
Yes, I do this computer course at [indistinct] because I don’t - there are forcing me to do it. I don’t like it because I’m asked to clock in the morning. I don’t like - I don’t like that course I’m doing at all. Because some other times when I’m concentrating on the computer I’m asked to go and do some other jobs. So I can not consider myself as a student, and even my instructor some other times say certain things that I do not like.
UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER
[indistinct] what kind of work would you like to do?
MR NDINISA
I want to be educated but I do not have finance.
UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER
[indistinct] for a professional [indistinct]
MR NDINISA
When I was - was - when I was at High School I wanted to do [indistinct] Science. I would like to be a professional, I don’t want anyone to choose a profession for me, in fact the fact that I’m a student doing that computer course I don’t like it.
I’ve been forced and I spend 6 hours there and the instructor there is a - is a racist …END OF TAPE 2, SIDE A… Mandela otherwise he cannot do otherwise but at home they force me to go back.
UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER
I just want to ask you another question. You said that your mother complained that after the horrible things that happened to you that it seems that you were going mad. Did you at any time receive psychological treatment?
MR NDINISA
I didn’t get mad, that is what was said at the hospital. I cannot say I ran mad because I did not see that happening to me.
UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER
And afterwards there were no emotional problems, you don’t get depressed from time to time or emotionally disturbed. You’re able to cope with what happened with you?
MR NDINISA
What I noticed and what I heard from people is that I am short tempered, I quarrel a lot with people and makes me unhappy. I become temperamental and thereafter I regret but my mother has been told that I’m being affected by the bullets. But as for now I - I can’t stand for a long time because I - if I stand for long time I have some pains on my back.
UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER
[indistinct] question, you must be 27 years of age if I calculated - calculated correctly, are you married, do you have a family?
MR NDINISA
I do have children - [indistinct] 3
UNKNOWN COMMISSIONER
3 children?
MS GOBODO
Thank you, anyone else? Thank you Andile for coming here before us to come and share your story and your hardship with us. And in your statement you have mentioned that you ran away because you’re running away from dying. I can have a picture of you running away, hiding in someone’s house and there comes someone and - to shoot you.
Children who were 16 years of age at that time, were getting lost because of there adolescent stage but for the black people all those children who disappeared their parents they had to go to hospitals and Police Station looking for their children. This is what was happening to the youth during your time.
We are happy that your are here today to come and share with us how you nearly lost your life, we are happy that you are able to come and sit here and tell us everything about your pain. You were at school and you had goals but all those goals were shattered. Then it means that you lost your life in that way, you are still trying to compose it now. We are going to assist you in trying to recompose your life, we are going to expose you to our Reparation Committee that is going to assist you with your life.
We also thank you Ms Ndinisa for accompanying Andile, thank you.
