DR ORR
The next witness ...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON
Silence please, Dr Wendy Orr has a soft voice and you wouldn’t be able to hear her if you are not completely quiet.
If you are going out try and do it quietly, if not I will call our new police to stop you.
DR ORR
Patric I just want to check that you can hear me through the headphones. Can you hear the translation? Can you hear me?
MR QUMZA
I cannot hear you, you keep going on and off.
DR ORR
Patric can you hear me now? Thank you very much for being here today, you’ve had a very long day, you’re our last witness today but that doesn’t mean you’re the least important. Thank you for sitting so patiently. Would you stand now to the oath?
PATRIC QUMZA Duly sworn states
DR ORR
Patric we have already heard today from Ms Ndinisa and Ms Phike who’s sons were both killed on the 26th of December 1985. You were also one of those people who was attacked in the UDF, AZAPO, PAC, ANC conflict of that time. You were attacked on that same night but you survived. Can you tell us what happened to you that night 26 December 1985?
MR QUMZA
I’m going to start right at the beginning. It was the 24th I was at my next door neighbour’s place. There is a women there who has a son called Mongezinenzi. We heard noise from outside, it was the police throwing all sorts of things at the children. They then [indistinct] - I asked one child to go next door to my house to ask my wife for nails. We then were scared because we realized that it was the police - we were worried about this - about the child that I had sent but then we hoped that the child would be inside already.
There was tear gas - all of a sudden there was silence until we heard a voice. It was my father’s voice who was calling out:
Mondi, Mondi get out, the child has been shot.
We then ran out, in front of my shack this child was lying there dead. I then asked my wife to open the door. She had in her arm Zokiso who was 6 months old at the time.
She also was shot, the shack was made out of planks. The police could see that some damage was done. I took my knife because I was also quite quick, I wanted to investigate whether this was a bullet or what. There was a pole that was next to the shack, in the pole there were bullets. I took out these bullets and put them in a matchbox.
There was a policeman that kept pointing towards us, they took the child. When Mr Ninze came back from next door I then asked - I then told Mr Ninze and showed him the bullets that killed the child. At about 5 o’clock in the afternoon a police Commissioner came by. He took the bullets with, I then left because the mother who’s child died was very nervous and upset.
I went to a friend of mine who stays next to a school which is now called Desmond Tutu. Around midday I decided that I should go home.
A child died.
I said
And my wife had been shot, I am leaving.
I said, he said that I should remain there because it was dangerous to leave. When I was between the A and J block I saw lights on the road. Both sides they were lit, there was a crowd coming towards me. I was active at the time, I was a UDF comrade. We were all comrades in the township, but we were not enlightened. I thought that UDF members do not carry such weapons.
The State of Emergency was active at the time, we had to sleep at a certain time, it was quiet. I was sure that it was an AZAPO of crowd of 20 to 40 that was out casting me. I then turned towards the A block, these were mainly halls. There were shadows all over. I thought that I should quickly go past them but I should use another way.
They were looking at me apparently because I heard them saying:
There, there he is, Patric.
I ran away, people’s houses were closed at the time. I was just trying to go past these people. This is when I was hit with a panga on my waist, my leg was malfunctional as a result of that. My flesh was badly wounded, my leg could hardly function but I did try to run away.
I kept on running away although they could see me. I ran into a house that had recently been refurbished. There were girls there and some comrades. I closed the door - I then said I’m not - I’m not going to die alone. Those are AZAPO members that are chasing us. They had surrounded the house, a women called - Monkey said that I should leave instantly because they also would die.
Someone else said that if they don’t let me out they would all die. I had a bled quite a lot but I thought that these people how ever could not die on my behalf. They started arguing inside the house, the one said:
Patric will not leave the house, I don’t care what happens.
He said, they wanted to brake down the windows, they wanted to open the doors. They were coming closer and closer to the house, they were all gathering around the house, the knowing that I was inside the house.
When they opened the house there was an electrical box where the cables were. I grabbed the - the electrical box down where the wiring was. I then opened the window and jumped out. It was dark, I ran off towards the supermarket. It had just been rained and it was muddy. When I was crossing the road the light that was there caused them to see me. Sunabom Ghese came towards me, Ganahans, Ivan Bobejani, Thenbagile Mathai they were casting me. I thought that they must just take me and take my life, I am not going to run any more. I heard a young child - a baby. These were my neighbours, I could not believe that my neighbours could do this.
Sunabom had a sword in his hand that - this sword is usually used for decoration. Ungana had a cane in his hand, I know what I’m talking about, I was there it happened to me. When they came to me I was praying, I then fell off and Sunabom’s sword had already stabbed my arm. I had overalls on, they stabbed me. I inhaled, this sword actually when into the mud and they thought that it was into my stomach that it had gone.
Gana then said I must make sure that I was killed, I was not saying a word, I was not moving either because they had already thought I was dead. When they left I was looking at them, they went away.
Then I saw a police van, there were three police vans. The one was at the corner by the hall, the other - the last one at BAD 8. They went to the one towards the hall, I then could see that these people are truly in cahoots. They went from the one to the other to another. They went back to the location to probably finish their dirty work. I was just lying there, I thought that I’m not going to die here. They will probably come back and finish me off. I could not get up, I then tried to move myself towards the things that were there.
When I turned around the corner by the Jacob’s shop, I struggled on. I kept on looking behind me, I could not see the other two vans - I could see the police using their torches looking for me but I was not there. There was light there because there was an electric pole, they saw me as a result of that - at that - of that light. These vans then drove passed the supermarket, all three of them. I was - I had just passed the passage way, I was nearing my house now. I went home and knocked - as I knocked I realized that everybody was nervous and upset because there was all sorts of noise.
Nonxhe, my niece opened the door for me, my father was up - it was just blood everywhere. I asked for water, they gave me a whole bucket of water which I drank. I was bleeding, my …END OF TAPE 3, SIDE B… Nonxhe then Constable Maghxhela who is now in Johannesburg - Maghzhela came back, he was verbally assaulting the police. He went to the police and momentarily and ambulance arrived. They tried to give me first aid and bandaged me, I was put in the ambulance.
When the ambulance was driving off I realized that I was not alone in the ambulance. I could recognize the clothing, it was my friend Popeye, he was working, his family was not here. I realized that he had died, it was a corpse. I saw the other - another corpse, it was Mabrigde. Ntemi Phike was also there, his corpse was there, I was the fourth one.
When I got up I was in Paarl Hospital. There are special beds for the dead that they use in Paarl East, you all - everybody was covered.
They then asked - they then asked me who I am, I said:
I’m Patric Qumza from A - from AD 23.
They immediately took me to theater, the last I knew I was beneath a huge light. They then decided that they could not operate on me, they then put me yet in another ambulance and took me the General Hospital. I was unconscious, when I became conscious again I realized that I was in another hospital. The same day I realized that I’m being transferred to another hospital, Tygerberg Hospital.
I recognized Tygerberg by it’s pillars, there was a doctor next to me. I then was taken to Groote Schuur, I was taken to T3 in Groote Schuur. It was almost morning when a Chinese doctor took me to the theater. They put menthol substances around me to uphold my leg. The second evening a newspaperman came with Boniswa who was here just now, they wanted - this newspaperman were trying to find out what was happening in Mbekweni but I did not trust anyone.
I did not tell them what was going on, I told them that I’m just not well. They then said Patric will give - will give ourselves another chance, will come back the following day. The doctor said - advised them to come back the next day as well. I knew that I had the strength to talk. On the 3rd day I was able to get up from bed to walk around in the hospital. I went from ward to ward - it was in Groote Schuur, I saw Ms Zhanzhi, Mr Tommy Bongo, I - there were people that were injured after me, they were also in this hospital.
I saw their parents, their children were being discharged. I then asked if I could not go home with them because I was well enough. They said I must talk to my doctor, I said I’d talk to the sister. We then agreed that we’d meet outside at the cars. I had no clothing at the time, I had to ask the hospital to provide clothing for me. I think my clothing is back at the hospital even today because they think that I had died.
When I was going towards the nursing sister I realized that Sergeant Vabane was there and two coloured me who are investigators. They said they had come to arrest me, I asked why. I said I could not leave with them, I’m going to leave with Bongo, I’ve already agreed with them to do so. I then asked - tried to ask the nursing sister to help, she could not help me.
I was given the hospital clothing, just the pants - I was half naked. It was at about 3 in the afternoon, we used the Brackenfell route coming towards Paarl. They then stopped the car at the side of the road, this Coloured policeman asked me what was going in Mbekweni.
I said I don’t know anything, I was just walking and there were people attacking me. You should ask my attackers what they were doing to me. They them said I know a lot and you’re going to tell us exactly what it is - what is it that was going on. Do you want money, they asked. I said:
If they - if you giving me the money I’ll take it.
They said that I’m giving them a hard time, I said my medication is with the people I was suppose to leave with. I am in great pain, I did not even take my medication. They are going to report back home that I was supposed to have left with them. They them started the car, when we - we arrived in Paarl they took me to the police station, they did not take me home.
When we got to the police station, it was at about 4 o’clock, they said I must wait for someone to talk to me. I said I’m cold and I’m hungry and I’m in great pain. They left me there, they came back with watermelon, I did not want their food at all. I said I don’t want food I just want to go home. They said that there’s someone I’m to meet there, therefore I must stay there.
At about 7 o’clock at the police station a policeman called Victor and Willemse came. They said:
Ja, big comrade.
I then asked:
Am I a big comrade?
They had a briefcase with them, they opened it, it had a whole lot of money in it. They asked if - they asked if I wanted the money, this - I said:
If you’re giving it to me, I’ll take it. Why must I take it because it does not belong to me.
They asked what happened, I said I was just walking minding my own business, I told them that my father does even know I’m here.
He is probably looking for me and if he founds out I’m here you’ll be in trouble,
I said. They - I was then taken back to yet another police station. There were Xhosa police there that we referred to as Ingatha. My father had already spoken to them, I stay there for three days. The following day on the Thursday, it was going to be the funeral of the four people who had died.
Three days after the funeral had passed, it was on a Monday, I was just sitting at home, I heard a knock. I got out there was soldiers armed outside my shack. I asked them what they wanted there, I told them that their the ones who killed people. They were standing outside my shack armed. Victor came towards me, he had a ticket, he then asked if I’m Patric Qumza, I said yes. They said they are arresting me according to the [indistinct] Act for fourteen days. They commanded me to get dressed, I got into the mellow yellow van ...[intervention]
DR ORR
[indistinct] emergency regulation?
MR QUMZA
Yes, it is so.
DR ORR
I’d like to just before you continue to go back to the evening of the 26th of December. Was there ever a court case against the AZAPO people that assaulted you on that night?
MR QUMZA
No even once.
DR ORR
Did you lay a charge against those people, did you - did you accuse them of - of assaulting you?
MR QUMZA
Could you let me finish first and then ask me the questions please. This is what happened, when I was in detention I was taken to the lower police station. From there I was taken to town, I was then taken to Victor Verster. It was three days after the funeral, Victor then came again asking me the same question that they had asked me the previously at the police station. I said I do not know anything. They asked me what is Viva, I said there is only one thing I know about Viva, when you win a battle you say Viva that’s all I know.
My operation then troubled me, it’s my winds that were troubling me. There were doctors there, every morning I went to doctor it was quite serious. The one policeman had a hammer, he wanted to hit my knuckles with the hammer. I told him that I’m not well. He then said - he then said they must prepare for me to be taken to Groote Schuur on the Friday.
I was taken immediately, I was dropped off at Groote Schuur. There was E Donsen the secretary there, I then identified myself.
CHAIRPERSON
Patric we have listened to you, you have elaborated a lot. Maybe you can tell us how long you stayed in Groote Schuur. Were you taken back to prison, could you please tell us briefly what happened because time escapes us.
MR QUMZA
I arrived at Groote Schuur late afternoon, at about 8 in the evening they took me back to theater. They took me back to theater, they operated on me. They took out the metal pieces they’d put in my body. They’d said they had rusted, that was the Thursday, then the Friday elapsed, on the Saturday I asked if I could be released from the hospital and they released me. I went to Observatory after that.
DR ORR
[indistinct] the account of what happened to you that night, you obviously still remember it very clearly and it was obviously a very painful and frightening experience for you to go threw. You said that there was never any court case brought against those people who attacked you, is that correct?
MR QUMZA
I was - I was chased by police, they said that we should try to reconcile all the organization. Omar was also part of this, we were taken to his house in a Kombi called - that was under the UDF. There was a Kombi also that belonged to AZAPO and AZANYU. We got to Omar’s house, there were no AZAPO or AZANYU people. They then alleged that people like Timothy Bongo, George Bongo were needed but they were there. Omar then told us that we could go home because these significant people were not there.
DR ORR
I’ll hand you back to the Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON
Any question?
MS GOBODO
Thank you very much Mr Chairperson. In order for us to be clear so as to investigate properly, these names that you have uttered Sonabom, Thembagile are they people that are still around?
MR QUMZA
Yes they are around.
MS GOBODO
It has repeatedly said that the PAC people were working together with the police. We are not on a witch hunt, but we just want to make sure that these people are truly around so that we can investigate in a proper manner, thank you very much.
CHAIRPERSON
Thank you sir, we enjoyed your testimony even though it was sad, we enjoyed it. We really can see that you’re still alive, thank you very much sir.
Order please, tomorrow will be a very significant day in that - on - in -tomorrow afternoon we will have what will be a first for the TRC when a church group comes to make a submission to the Commission but it will even be more significant because it will be a section of a very important church, the white Dutch Reformed Church and we - we believe that it will be a particularly significant occasion and we have expressed our deep appreciation to the Stellenbosch Ring of - of the NG Kerk. We’ll be doing this and we hope that others will follow what is a very-very good example.
Before we adjourn can we please stand and observe a moments silence in memory of all of those who died in the cause of the conflict which we have been hearing about. Please stand.
Thank you very much, thank you for being a very good audience. We will start at 9 o’clock, can we just wait until the witnesses have left the room please. Order please.
We resume at 9 tomorrow morning, thank you very much.
