Special Hearings

BISHOP STOREY: Mr Naidoo was, very, very strongly, asked to explain how it was that he dared to come here with a member of the football team. Now, we later discovered, although he didn’t acknowledge it then at all, that he had attempted to get Mrs Mandela to attend this meeting, but she had refused. The evidence then continued and focused now on Stompie, who they said had been badly assaulted and taken away early on in their detention. His whereabouts were unknown. Then Katiza was brought in and he gave evidence, and he admitted that he had participated in the beatings that took place once the youths had arrived at the Mandela house, and when he was asked why, he said, well, they were being beaten and I also felt like beating them. 

He alleged that Paul Verryn had lain on top of him on one occasion, and that was the only allegation during the night of any kind of misconduct by Mr Verryn. He was also asked to describe Stompie's injuries, and he said he was soft on one side of the head, and had been beaten so that he could not see out of his eyes, and had been picked up and dropped on the floor, and that he couldn’t walk. Asked where Stompie went, he said he didn’t know. Quote,

"When I came back to the house, Stompie was missing."

Unquote. Asked whether he thought Stompie was dead he answered "yes".

Then Paul Verryn was asked to respond to the allegations of sexual, the allegation of sexual misconduct, and he denied the allegation. Then members of the Crisis Committee indicated that the only other youth to make such allegations when they met them in Mrs Mandela's house was Thabiso. He was then asked if he stood by that allegation against Mr Verryn, and he indicated that he withdrew it unconditionally, because he had been forced to say it. I then indicated to the meeting that, if there was any credible evidence of homosexual activity by Mr Verryn, I would have to institute proceedings against him, and I invited Thabiso and Gabriel or Pelo, and the nine other residents of the Verryn house to offer any allegations of any conduct, any conduct unbecoming of a Minister.

No such allegations were made. Instead a youth by the name of Thomas stood up, and he indicated that he had been in the house since 1987. He’d often shared a bed with Paul Verryn, but no hint of any misconduct had ever taken place. He asked the other nine whether they supported him in this statement, and they agreed. I then asked the meeting at large whether any of them had any such evidence, and their answer was in the negative. There followed a unanimous vote of confidence in Mr Verryn and a commitment to ensure that he return safely to his work. The Chairperson of the meeting, Mr Ngwenya, indicated anger that the integrity of one of our Ministers should have been brought into question in this way. I then said that I was unwilling to proceed with any action against Mr Verryn on the basis of the evidence of only one person who had actually participated in the assaults on the other youths, and, in my view, was a totally unreliable witness. The meeting decided that Mrs Mandela was using these allegations as a smokescreen.

Then another youth gave evidence. He had once belonged to the soccer team and had left. He related a long story about the team harassing him until they finally caught him and cut his throat with a pair of garden shears, and he indicated the recently stitched wound and said that he had been left for dead before managing to get assistance at a nearby hostel.

MR VALLY: I’m sorry, Bishop Storey.

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR VALLY: Do you know the name of this youth?

BISHOP STOREY: No, I’ven’t got a record of it and I wouldn’t like to, any longer, rely on my memory.

MR VALLY: Please continue.

BISHOP STOREY: I didn’t write his name down.

MR VALLY: That’s fine.

BISHOP STOREY: The meeting decided to confront Mrs Mandela as soon as possible about Stompie, while the trade unionists in the meeting said they were planning to march on her house on Tuesday, but they were persuaded not to do this and to allow the Crisis Team to continue to deal with the matter, and the Crisis Team agreed to see her first thing in the morning.

Then one of the Youth Congress members made a speech to Mr Verryn, affirming him as one who was trusted by the community and indicating to him that he should forgive and let bygones be bygones, because, quote,

"We have been in detention and we know how easy it is to say hurtful things under torture".

He said,

"I may even denounce you tomorrow if I’m taken tonight".

At the close of the meeting, which was after midnight, I lifted the restrictions on Paul Verryn seeing these youths, and he took them to the home of Dr and Mrs Connell where they stayed until the 21st of January, after which they were moved to the homes of other people. And during this period Paul continued to seek information about Stompie and contacted the Temahole Civic, and we wanted to see Stompie's parents. Thank you.

MR VALLY: Bishop, could you go on ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: Please tell me what you want, sir?

MR VALLY: Sure. Could you go on to Friday the 18th, please?

BISHOP STOREY: Friday, was it the 18th or the 20th? I’m not very good with figures and, but anyway. I believe on the Friday of that week three churchmen, Father Mkhatswa, Reverend Otto Mbangula and Bishop Manas Buthulezi, visited Mrs Mandela. She insisted on Krish Naidoo being present, and Zinzi was there, and they questioned her concerning Stompie, and she answered, "He escaped, I don’t know where he is". Zinzi then insisted that the full background be given rather a one sentence answer, whereupon the sexual assault allegations were once more made. Mr Mbangula asked her why she didn’t approach him, he was the Superintendent Minister of Mr Verryn, or myself, as Verryn's Bishop, when she first heard of this behaviour, and there was no answer to this question, and then Mrs Mandela said she would prepared to meet the community after her exams.

MR VALLY: Bishop Storey, if you could just leave your statement for a minute there. Move on to the 25th of January, please.

BISHOP STOREY: To the?

MR VALLY: 25th of January.

BISHOP STOREY: Yes. Well, on the 25th we had a meeting with our lawyer, Mr Haysom, and we were wrestling with our responsibilities towards Stompie and the advice that was given us at that time. The legal advice was to keep the community leaders on the case, to get hold of Stompie's parents and the civic where he came from, something that Paul Verryn was already trying to do, and to continue trying to find out where he is. It was also agreed, at that time, that Paul should ask the church officially to enquire into the allegations made against him, but this is for his own, sake of his own reputation. So, then that was Wednesday, and then the next day I received a letter from Mr Verryn requesting that the church institute an inquiry into the allegations that were being made about his sexual behaviour. And then it was around this time that, in fact, it was the next day that the Weekly Mail was going to break the story of the abduction, which so far had not been in the press at all. And they approached me, fairly close to deadline, and asked me to make a, to comment, because they were breaking the story, and I did give them a statement. I’ve records of those statements if they are relevant or of any interest to the Commission. And I only did so after it was clear that Mrs Mandela had attacked the church in the report that they would be publishing the next day. That day Mr Verryn also got a telephoned death threat, anonymous.

Do you wish me to go on to the next day, sir, or...

MR VALLY: Please go on to the 29th of January.

BISHOP STOREY: Twenty-ninth of January. Well, once this thing had broken, I found myself dealing on Friday and Saturday and Sunday with every print medium except the "Eskimo Times". It was everything in the world suddenly wanted news about this. It was a very difficult time, because we wanted to be as cautious as possible in the way this was aired, bearing in mind the sensitivity of it all, but I had to do interviews with many, many TV and newspaper reporters, and decided that I would want to focus on the question, "Where is Stompie?". That was our concern, and that was the issue that should be lifted up here, and so, as far as possible, tried to make that the focus of every interview.

Now, the Sunday Times ... (intervention).

MR VALLY: Sorry, Bishop Storey.

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR VALLY: Just on that’ssue of the press ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR VALLY: ... was, to your knowledge, Mrs Madikizela-Mandela making statements to the press in this period?

BISHOP STOREY: I know that by Sunday 29 the Sunday Times carried a headline and a story in which Mrs Mandela linked the murder of Dr Asvat with the church on grounds that he was to be her expert witness about the sexual abuse that she was alleging, and the City Press that day also carried a story which focused very much on the sexual side of this drama. So, yes, she was.

MR VALLY: Just for the record, ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: In fact, I’m sorry, if I may complete my answer. As I indicated just now, the only reason why I was willing to give a statement to the Weekly Mail on the night of Thursday the 26th, was because they indicated Mrs Mandela had done so, and had attacked Mr Verryn and the church.

MR VALLY: As regards the statement made in the Sunday Times of the 29th of January, this was put to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, I asked her this question, page 101 of the second inquiry, and I will very briefly tell you what her response was. I asked her,

"Your statement in the Sunday Times linking the murder of Dr Asvat to Stompie's death, stating that he was killed, because he was the person who could prove the allegations of sodomy. What was the basis for that allegation?"

Mrs Mandela replied,

"No, that’s absolute nonsense, Mr Chairman, I made no such statement, and the media quotes me every day with all sorts of ridiculous statements."

I then quoted the actual Sunday Times article, and the section I quoted was the bit which was in quotation marks.

"Dr Asvat was the only professional witness to back my story that the boys, allegedly kept against their will in my house, were, in fact, victims of abuse. I gave them shelter as is my duty as a social worker."

End of quote. Did you ever make such a statement to the Sunday Times reporter?".

Ms Madikizela-Mandela replied,

"As usual, it is first-class thumb-sucking. I made no such a statement. I don’t speak to the press along those lines. I don’t, in fact, grant interviews at all for those who care to know."

Can you tell me, when you referred to the statement regarding Dr Asvat's death, on the 29th of January 1989, ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR VALLY: ... do you have any basis for believing that the statement was, in fact, made by Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

BISHOP STOREY: Well, when we saw this story on Sunday, I mean, it was so utterly bizarre even to suggest that the church could be colluding with some murderer in order to get rid of evidence that might embarrass the church, it was so absurd, it made us very, very angry, and by the end of that day we had met and decided to open a defamation action against the Sunday Times and the City Press. Now, the only evidence that I’ve that, I can’t comment on whether they were quoting Mrs Mandela accurately or not, except that by Tuesday, Business Day, the 31st, Business Day carried a retraction by Mrs Mandela of this allegation. When I say a retraction of sorts, I’ven’t got the wording of that retraction in front of me, but that would indicate, possibly, to me that she had, in fact, made the first statement.

MR VALLY: Please go on. Just complete what you were saying about Sunday the 29th and then go on to Tuesday the 31st, please.

BISHOP STOREY: Well, after the, that media issue of the link with Dr Asvat's murder, I convened a meeting with key community leaders, because this was a frightening allegation, and I spoke to Dr Motlana, who said, simply, she’s lying, that’s Mrs Mandela, no such medical evidence is possible anyway, and he said he would see her right away to warn her of the consequences of her statements, and I learnt from him later that Mrs Mandela refused to see him. And that’s when, very late that night, we met with our lawyers to decide to take legal action against the Sunday Times and the City Press.

MR VALLY: Please go on to Wednesday, the 1st of February.

BISHOP STOREY: On Wednesday the 1st of February, Paul Verryn and myself visited Stompie's mother in Parys, in that morning, and it became clear to us, once we met with her, that nobody had actually told her of the events surrounding her son, and we had to be the people who broke the news to her of the abduction and of the treatment, which we understood, Stompie had received, and of his disappearance, and we indicated that while we could not give up hope, the outlook was very grim. And she spoke of her faith in God and the way that God had looked after Stompie in the past, and I asked her if she wished to work through our lawyers or her lawyers to bring pressure to bear for news of Stompie, and she indicated she would do this.

Then that afternoon I released a second statement, because up to now we had not, in fact, referred to the assaults in any press statement. We were trying to be, we tried to hold this thing as tight as we could, but I heard that Mrs Mandela had now given a television interview attacking the church, attacking the South African Council of Churches for, quote,

"Covering up events with the football team for the sake of overseas funding."

We have, I saw a copy of that later, and there is a lot more detail to the attacks that she made. I found myself seeing all sorts of journalists about this, and I then went to see Beyers Naude to find out whether the Crisis Team had made any further progress. We were becoming extremely frustrated.

At ten o' clock I visited Mr Dominee Naude that night. He had come back from overseas and was once more part of this Committee, and he related that on three occasions between Monday of this week, that’s Monday the 30th of January and Wednesday the 1st, Winnie Mandela had agreed to meet the Crisis Committee and had cancelled at the last moment. They had given her an ultimatum that unless she was willing to meet them plus myself on the Thursday, they would have to report to the community that they’d failed to make any headway with her. I expressed concern that I had not been consulted about being included in the ultimatum, and asked what they hoped to achieve, and Beyers said that they would demand that she must express the willingness to hand over the football team and its affairs and its future to the Crisis Committee, and she must also agree to negotiate a solution with myself at a press conference where we would all together face the press by Friday with an agreed statement.

I indicated I didn’t believe that that would be achieved by Friday because of unanswered questions about Stompie, and Dominee Naude said we are not mandated to do the work of the church, that’s up to me. And then he gave me a copy of the NBC interview that Mrs Mandela had had and copies of press releases by certain civic associations supporting the actions of the community meeting, affirming Paul Verryn and the church, and these press releases were now in the hands of the New Nation and the Weekly Mail, and he said the Crisis Committee was attempting to block their publication for the sake of not hurting progress in negotiations with Mrs Mandela.

MR VALLY: Bishop Storey, ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR VALLY: ... at this point what was your response to this? Initially you wanted to bring a court application, a habeas corpus application for Mr Seipei's release. Now press information was being blocked, what was your response?

BISHOP STOREY: I realised that there were two things running here. There was an attempt to find out the truth about Stompie and, possibly, still save his life. We didn’t know at that point, we suspected, I guess none of us had the courage to actually face the truth, the likelihood was 90% that he was dead, but that he could be somewhere, and the need for this truth to come out. On the other hand, there was a political agenda running here. There were people with deep political concerns and fears. I was aware of that. I’m not a politician myself, but it was quite clear to me that the Crisis Committee was involved in damage control, as well as trying to get to the bottom of this.

And when damage control, politically, took the upper hand, then they would move in a certain way and when the moral essence of assault and possible murder took the upper hand, then they would move in another way. I think they were really in a deep dilemma. I don’t think I’m being critical when I say this, I think it was a reality of the time, and that frustrated me deeply.

MR VALLY: Please go on.

BISHOP STOREY: Well, then I looked at the video, and I don’t know if you want me to go through all of that?

MR VALLY: Very briefly on the video, but thereafter?

BISHOP STOREY: Well, it seemed to me that in this, that nobody now was safe from accusations by Mrs Mandela of some kind of plot and involvement against her or her husband. She said, she denied the existence of a football team, she denied that there had been any abduction, she said that the children at her house were the same kind of children that were looked after at Paul Verryn's house, she doesn’t know their identity, they don’t know of any football club, she expressed surprise that Bishop Tutu, who was overseas at the time, had said that she had talked about the football team, because he knows that she has no need of bodyguards, she launched into an attack on Paul Verryn,

"Tragedy is the issue of Paul Verryn who has a medical problem, which needs to be addressed by responsible leaders. Since October ‘88 I came across the problem which is psychological problem."

I took these words down verbatim from the NBC tape.

"I don’t understand how a man of his standing and a Christian continues to sodomise black children. There is clear evidence that he’s fallen victim to a medical problem that he should have addressed quietly with his doctors. He brutalises these youths who are with him. Because one youth would not give in to his sexual advances that’s how this arose. It is all known in church circles and those who have been working with him. He is supposed to have been transferred from Roodepoort because of this problem. He is continuing with his activities with the full knowledge of some of the top members of the church. My responsibility as a mother is to draw attention to this problem. The youths in my premises didn’t abduct any children. It came about when a woman who was staying with Paul Verryn told me about this child and he was later fetched. There is a gigantic cover-up by the church.

Xoliswa brought the boys, especially the traumatised child, because she panicked when he said ...", quote,

"The only way to deal with this White man is to kill him."

"The focus should have been on Paul Verryn and the SACC. The SACC are worried about their image, because, when people discover that Paul Verryn is not very well, their overseas funding will be affected. This is a problem of the church rather than any football team. We thought we were assisting the church in a problem and their only interest is covering their image."

These are some of the things that were said by Mrs Mandela on that tape.

Later in that day I had further consultations with our lawyers and that we should, perhaps, try not to be too negative about the proposed meeting that Dominee Naude had spoken about, but that I must go into that meeting ready to confront Mrs Mandela with all the evidence that we had, especially in relation to the actions and things said by the football team around the removal of Stompie.

Ja, I don’t know how much detail you are wanting, sir, that’s why, I’d be grateful if you led me a little bit.

MR VALLY: Sure, you are doing fine. I think we are coming close to the end. There isn’t much left. I would appreciate it if you’d just follow this through.

BISHOP STOREY: I beg your pardon?

MR VALLY: You can carry on right through the statement. There’s only about two pages left.

BISHOP STOREY: All right. On the Thursday I had consultations with my own Presiding Bishop and the Executive Secretary of my church about the meeting suggested that we would, we were going to have with the Crisis Team and Mrs Mandela, and they suggested we should go ahead with the meeting, provided that I go in accompanied by other representatives of my own church. And at eight o' clock on that Thursday I met with Beyers Naude, who said there’s been a change in plans. Now he said Winnie and Naidoo are insisting on meeting the Crisis Committee without Storey first. This meeting was set for noon. I indicated that the Crisis Committee should come to his office. I indicated the Crisis Committee should come to my office immediately after that meeting if it took place at all. I wasn’t optimistic.

There was a meeting, I believe, at that time, somewhere that day between Beyers Naude, Sister Ncube, Winnie and Zinzi Mandela. At two thirty, the Crisis Committee, consisting of Beyers Naude, Aubrey Mokoena, Sister Ncube and Sidney Mufamadi arrived, together with Krish Naidoo, and I was accompanied by the Reverend Austin Massey and, I think, the Revered Otto Mbangula. I asked why Mr Naidoo was there. They were in my office. I didn’t believe that Mr Naidoo belonged in the Crisis Committee. I, frankly, was suspicious of his role in the matter, and he said "I’m a go-between, I’m not acting for Mrs Mandela".

Dominee Naude reported that they had met with Mrs Mandela earlier, and indicated one, "If possible, we would like to see to it that misunderstandings are removed and to move forward in unity for the sake of the community, the church, the Mandela family, and Paul". They had conveyed to her the outcome of Crisis Committee investigations into the alleged events surround the abduction and Paul, and it was the intention of the Crisis Committee to get a meeting with the church and to tell her that the church has evidence which may or may not conflict with theirs. They were also aware of an urgent need to report to the community, and they were reporting to me that Mrs Mandela was willing to enter into a, quote,

"wider discussion",

unquote, that’s, with the Crisis Committee, the church, the Mandela family and, possibly, Ismail Ayob. Mr Mufamadi then indicated that he had reported fully to Mrs Mandela about the encounter between the Crisis Committee and the children in custody, along the lines that I described earlier. In other words, when they visited them in the home. The Crisis Committee reported to her about the community meeting and what had happened there, the conflict between her claim that the children had come voluntarily and what they had said to the community meeting.

They also reported how Katiza had confirmed that he had not been assaulted and had participated in assaulting the others, and also that he said he saw Stompie being taken out in bad condition. They also reported to her of their meeting with Xoliswa. She admitted she was the one who had informed Winnie and pointed the children out when they were fetched. She was there, also, when they denied sexual abuse and, quote,

"Had to be given a few klaps,"

unquote, to get them to admit it and it, to admit that it had happened to them. Xoliswa had been asked whether she had actually witnessed any sexual abuse, and her answer included that Stompie had once reported to her that Thabiso had interfered with him. Katiza had once reported to her about Paul, and Gabriel sometimes used to sleep in Paul's room. She, therefore, assumed he was party to these activities.

Beyers then reported that Winnie responded about Stompie. She was informed that the police yesterday took action in arresting, quote,

"an ex-Captain of the then football club",

unquote. She expects that there will be further arrests. She indicated that now it was in the hands of the police, and there was little more that she or the Crisis Committee could do.

With regard to Katiza, she indicated she had laid a charge and it was now in the hands of the police. She said that ...

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me, Peter, I just want to make an announcement about cars that have to be moved. They are obstructing the way. What is this, DDB514GP. I don’t know the make of the car, but I hope the driver or the owner knows the registration, and the other is LJK565, LJK565T. Can you please move your cars? I’m sorry.

MR VALLY: Please go ahead, Bishop Storey.

BISHOP STOREY: With regard to Katiza, Mrs Mandela had indicated to the Crisis Committee that she’d laid a charge. That was a charge against Mr Verryn, I think. It was now in the hands of the police, and she said that we now have a situation of conflicting evidence, so far as the Crisis Committee is concerned. No definite, clear corroboration could be made of what had happened. She pointed out that the people supposedly guilty of abduction had not yet been questioned by the Crisis Committee. Well, the Committee then said that they wanted to convey all of this to myself, and Mr Naidoo indicated the need for a positive approach with unity being the key, and Mr Mokoena said the church should be careful not to go its way, because the church also has enemies and in order to minimise this, togetherness was required.

Beyers Naude then reported that Mrs Mandela, after all of this, pointed to the fact that here again was an example of a situation where people, for their own ends, present possible information where it can be used against other people. She recalled the Cilliers Commission in Brandfort where a similar thing happened. The Committee then asked her specifically with regard to the Mandela Football Club that the children be put into the care of the Crisis Committee and relieve her of the responsibility. She was adamant that the club had been disbanded long ago.

I was then asked whether the church would be willing to enter into a meeting of the Crisis Committee, the Mandelas, and the church. I indicated that there wasn’thing in principle against a meeting, but I pointed out that evidence in our possession must be dealt with and that, as late as yesterday, Mrs Mandela was making damning statements about Verryn and further assassinating his character and that of the church. Also, that today there is a story about Jerry in the newspaper in which he alleges that Stompie went with Kenny one morning and they’ve not been seen since. As long as the Crisis Committee was aware that, in any meeting with Winnie, these matters would have to be addressed.

I also took exception to suggestions that we had run to the press and pointed out that both statements issued by us had been issued only in response to major attacks on the church by Mrs Mandela, and we agreed that I would consult on Friday morning, and that a meeting date with Mrs Mandela was set tentatively for three p.m. on the Friday. I would phone Beyers Naude at 11 a.m. to confirm or cancel that date.

That afternoon I and Paul went, met two Maholi representatives to tell them about the visit to Stompie's mother, and this was the day that the Business Day carried a very full statement by myself responding to the long list of allegations that Mrs Mandela had made. I think I just need to say that, to close off this section, that on Friday we met in the hope, fully expecting to meet with Mrs Mandela and the Crisis Committee at 2.45, and Mrs Mandela failed to arrive.

MR VALLY: If you could just go to your further record now. When was Stompie's body finally identified?

BISHOP STOREY: On the ninth, as far as I can recall. After an anonymous call to the South African Police on the sixth of January, his body had been found, and was identified around the ninth.

MR VALLY: Can you tell us what happened on the 14th of February involving Ms Chili?

BISHOP STOREY: Around that time the, we had received messages, the day before the 14th, that the football team was out on the hunt and so we collected all the young people we knew had anything to fear, we thought, and we happened to be having a Ministers Retreat in a country place outside in the Magaliesberg at that time, and we brought all those young people out to join us there to get them out of Soweto, away from the risk. The next day I received news of an attack on Dudu Chili's house where a woman and a 13-year-old girl died, and also news of the killing of one football team member.

MR VALLY: Can you tell us what happened on the 16th of February?

BISHOP STOREY: On the 16th of February, you will permit a comment. On the 16th of February we saw some people bring together integrity, moral courage, and political courage all at once. We saw a group of people take the costly decision of making a statement clearly distancing their movement from Mrs Mandela. Nobody will ever know how much it cost them to do that and how hard it was for them to do that, and I’ve the greatest admiration for the courage which they displayed, and if only their courage had been upheld by other members of the movement, we wouldn’t be sitting here today. That was the press conference, sir, where the MDM called for a dignified distancing from Mrs Mandela.

MR VALLY: Bishop Storey, you say on the 15th of February that Winnie Mandela meets Nelson in prison. He gags her from speaking with the press. What’s your basis for saying that?

BISHOP STOREY: Sorry, where was that?

MR VALLY: I’m moving back slightly, the 15th (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR VALLY: Where you say Winnie Mandela meets Nelson in prison, he gags her from speaking with the press. What’s your basis for saying that?

BISHOP STOREY: I’m not sure, I imagine it may have been reported to me by Mr Ayob.

MR VALLY: Let’s talk about Saturday the 18th of February.

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR VALLY: Can you report to us on your notes on that date?

BISHOP STOREY: My notes simply say that Mrs Mandela gave an interview that day to the City Press, that Mr Chikane had a five- hour meeting with her, and that one of the results of that meeting was that she agreed to disband the football team and that, at that time, there were rumours that Katiza was missing, and Frank Chikane told the press that he wasn’t missing, but that he had been removed, that Frank had removed him to a sanctuary and, as part of that statement, I think he called for calm.

MR VALLY: Can you tell us about your notes on Sunday the 19th of February 1989?

BISHOP STOREY: Well, there was a call from the African National Congress in Lusaka not to shun Mrs Mandela, according to a report in the Sunday Times. The City Press exposed a letter from the Crisis Committee which had been sent earlier to Oliver Tambo, to somebody called O T, who was obviously Oliver Tambo, and in this letter, as published by the City Press, there’s confirmation, the Crisis Committee is reporting to Mr Tambo, and, in fact, gives details there of their visits to the Mandela home, their interviews with the abducted youths, which corroborated simply everything they had told me when they came back from those visits to the Mandela home.

They also, in that letter to Mr Tambo, report on the fact that they had been able to break one of the youths and get an admission that this had been a kidnap and that he had participated in the beatings. The Central Methodist Mission was sprayed with graffiti that day.

MR VALLY: That’s fine, we don’t have to go into that.

BISHOP STOREY: We won’t go into the graffiti. Some of it was very rude.

MR VALLY: Let’s look at what happened on the 21st of February 1989, the same day, according to your notes, when Jerry Richardson and John Sithole appeared in connection with the abduction of four youths and the murder of Stompie. Please tell me about the press interviews allegedly given by Mrs Mandela.

BISHOP STOREY: Well, John Ellison of the Daily Telegraph reported that Winnie Mandela had had a full interview with him at her home just before the police had raided and searched her house, and in this interview she alleged that Stompie is still alive, the body is not his. He is a victim, she is a victim, of an orchestrated hate campaign by white churchmen. The SACC plotted her downfall, someone wants to destabilise the country to make her husband's release more difficult. The Black Democratic Movement is now infiltrated at the highest level. Asvat was shot because he had evidence of Paul Verryn's sexual assaults, and I think John Ellison was asking me for comment, which I wasn’t prepared to give at that moment.

MR VALLY: I want to go into one last issue.

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR VALLY: On the 23rd of February 1989, Bishop Stanley Mogoba went to see ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR VALLY: ... Mr Nelson Mandela in prison, and he took a brief memorandum with him. Do you have a copy of that with you?

BISHOP STOREY: I would like, I would be grateful, I’ve got it somewhere in these files.

MR VALLY: If you could briefly read out the ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR VALLY: ... memorandum as well as the response you got ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR VALLY: ... thereto.

BISHOP STOREY: Well, it was just a good thing that, as Presiding Bishop of the Methodist Church, from a pastoral point of view, Dr Mogoba, Bishop Mogoba was, had planned a visit to Mr Nelson Mandela. Now, I had been told that Mr Ayob, earlier, had conveyed to Mr Mandela the essence of the facts and evidence about what had happened in the abduction and the things that followed. I wasn’t sure whether that had, in fact, been conveyed to Mr Mandela, and it just seemed that important to bring Mr Mandela up to date, in any case. So, I provided Dr Mogoba with a 14-point list of information which I hoped he could convey to Mr Nelson Mandela, and the first question would be, did Mr Mandela get a memorandum of events from Ismail Ayob prepared for the Crisis Committee and containing church evidence? If he did, well then, this was irrelevant. These are the notes I’ve made of what I asked Dr Mogoba to do.

Would he convey to Mr Mandela how deeply painful this has been for the church, our pastoral concern for him and Winnie, and we hope that he would see from the evidence that we didn’t have any option, that events have made a simple pastoral approach impossible. One, we knew of the abduction and almost certain murder of Stompie [end of tape side 3A] ... January. We kept it out of the media or the SAP until the story was broken by the Weekly Mail on the 20th of January. Two, we consulted from the very beginning with the community, who asked that they be left to handle it.

Perhaps, I’m sorry, I need, just by way of background to this, to say one other thing. I had heard either via Mr Ayob or Mr Haysom or somebody who had seen Mr Mandela, that Mr Mandela was concerned about my actions, and he was asking the question why could not Bishop Peter have acted, have dealt with this matter pastorally, rather than in the way he is dealing with it? So, this explains some of what I’m trying to justify here.

Second, we consulted from the very beginning with the community, who asked that they be left to handle it. Thirdly, four or five meetings to discuss the ways of getting the youths back, and then, through the good offices of Ayob, and then we sought the influence of both Nelson and Tambo. On the 16th there was the release and we believed that their intervention was decisive, and I wanted him to be thanked for that. On the fourth, the fourth point, on the same evening the youths freely admitted, on the 16th, that they had been abducted and held and beaten and Stompie, probably, killed. Five, we prepared a memorandum for his eyes and we believe Ayob kept it from him. Six, through the Crisis Committee we requested a meeting with Mrs Mandela. The first meeting was called off, the second she didn’t arrive. Seven, we sent a lawyer to Oliver Tambo to brief him and seek advice. Oliver Tambo was adamant that Nelson must be made aware of what was happening. Eight, we still didn’t involve the police. She did by setting the youth to lay a complaint against Paul Verryn. Nine, the first press statement was short and crisp and the only, and we only released it when she attacked the church. We didn’t mention her or the venue of the abduction. Ten, since then she has blamed factions in the SACC, white clerics, the SACC, informers in the National Democratic Movement, and Paul Verryn's sexual behaviour. Eleven, about Verryn, the only evidence against him is from a compromised witness and, in any case, Verryn has an alibi. He was away when this sex attack was supposedly took place.

The church, I’m not sure what it means, the church colluding with SAP although she called the police. I’m not sure, I, what that quite means.

MR VALLY: If you look at underneath the typed version, there are your handwritten notes.

BISHOP STOREY: Yes, what does it say here. Ja. I think it means, simply, that the church is now having to co-operate with the SAP although she, in fact, first called the police. Twelve, other contradictions. She has admitted slapping the boys in an ITV interview and church delegate, she, and denied it and blamed Jerry. Other contradictions are that Stompie wasn’t there, he ran away, he is now alive. This is the latest in many incidents she is implicated in high-level common-law crime. And then the 14th point I made to Mr Mandela that our current stance was, not responding, if at all possible, to the attacks made.

Dr Mogoba conveyed this, the essence of those points to Mr Mandela, who sent a message to me in reply via Dr Mogoba. Dr Mogoba simply related to me his conversation, and the conversation is that Mr Mandela said,

"The fault is hers. I owe an apology to the church, but why could not Bishop Peter have come closer to her instead of it being discussed in the press?"

Mogoba says,

"I testified to attempts to meet her, and he, in fact, was present on the day that she failed to appear."

Mandela says,

"I owe Peter an apology for what I’ve been thinking. It is an ugly situation."

Mogoba says,

"She is the one who broke press silence."

Mandela,

"Yes, I see."

Mogoba,

"We are under great pressure from community and church for answers on the whole issue."

Mandela,

"How would it be if I advise her to call a press conference, a public apology, I’ve done wrong, seek forgivenness and want to begin again?"

Mogoba,

"It has merits, but it may be too late."

Mandela,

"I thank the church for what it has done over all the years."

MR VALLY: Thank you, Bishop Storey, I’m through.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Mr Semenya.

MR SEMENYA: Bishop, I’ve been listening to your account of events, and it seems to me, because of the forum in which we are it is possible to testify about matters for which you have no personal knowledge. There are various aspects of your evidence where you are quoting what would have been told to you, and, I think, in this type of forum that that’s what happens. I will not attempt to deal with those issues for which you have no personal knowledge. However, and I will probably deal with those issues when those individuals, who would have communicated them to you, come and testify, but, however, let me attempt to deal with you about the general aspect and tenure of the evidence that you give.

Now, as the saying goes, hindsight is exact science. Let us talk about these events in 1988, ’89 and the milieu in which they were happening. Am I correct that even you, as a community leader, if you had learnt that there were children who were being sodomised in a manse, you would have taken that as a serious problem, would you not?

BISHOP STOREY: I didn’t hear the first part of that question.

MR SEMENYA: No, ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Just wait a bit. Peter, you can use the ... (intervention)

BISHOP STOREY: Oh.

CHAIRPERSON: ... headphones, then you can, if you use channel two.

BISHOP STOREY: Sorry.

MR SEMENYA: No, what I meant is, even you, as a leader, Bishop, if you had had information that there are children who are being sexually molested, you would have taken that to be a serious problem. Is that right?

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: And I think you would have done all you could to make sure that this difficulty does not visit the children? Is that right?

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: And you would have summoned all type of help to try to bring relief to these type of children? Is that right?

BISHOP STOREY: Well, I would have first tried to find out if it was true.

MR SEMENYA: Correct, but, again, we know the milieu in which this was happening. We, if, we know today, we didn’t know then that Jerry Richardson would own up to having killed Stompie. Is that right?

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: And if we knew that Jerry Richardson is a police informant in 1988, is it reasonable to expect that Mrs Mandela would not have stayed with Jerry Richardson?

BISHOP STOREY: If Jerry Richardson, if we knew he was an informer, and if Mrs Mandela knew he was an informer - is that what you are saying? - it is reasonable that she would not have had him staying there. Is that what you were asking? Yes, I think that’s reasonable.

MR SEMENYA: And if we had known in ’88 that Jerry Richardson is the character that he is, given what he confesses to, is it reasonable to say that Mrs Mandela would not have been moving with Jerry Richardson?

BISHOP STOREY: I can’t answer that. I, I can’t, there’s no way that I can surmise whether Mrs Mandela would have or would not have associated with Jerry Richardson if she had known at that time what kind of character he was.

MR SEMENYA: Really, Bishop, are you saying that Mrs Mandela in 1988 ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: Well, it would depend on whether she approved of his behaviour or not.

MR SEMENYA: But that’s the question I’m testing.

BISHOP STOREY: I can’t surmise as to whether she would have approved of his behaviour or not. A lot of the experience we had around that time in trying to deal with the abduction pointed fairly strongly to the fact that she might have approved of such behaviour.

MR SEMENYA: Bishop, let me put it this way. Are you saying that you have reason to believe Mrs Mandela knew that Jerry Richardson is an informer at that time?

BISHOP STOREY: No, I’m not saying that, but you were talking about his behaviour. Your first question was about his being an informer. Then you went on to say that if we knew he was a character who behaved in the way he did, would it be reasonable to assume that Mrs Mandela would associate with him? And I said I can’t answer that, because she might have well approved of that kind of behaviour, and some of what we discovered around this abduction points towards that possibility. So, there are two separate questions I heard. The first was about police informant and the second was about errant behaviour.

MR SEMENYA: Bishop, do you have reason to believe that Mrs Mandela would have known in January of 1989 that Jerry Richardson killed Stompie?

BISHOP STOREY: I believe Mrs Mandela knew what happened to Stompie, knew about the circumstances of his death. That’s what I believe. Whether she knew that Richardson killed him, or whoever else, I can’t say. What I do believe is that she knew what happened to Stompie.

MR SEMENYA: Well, we know what happened to Stompie, he was killed. The question I’m asking you is, do you, as Bishop Storey, have reason to believe that Mrs Mandela in January of 1989 knew that Stompie was killed?

BISHOP STOREY: Yes, yes, I think she did.

MR SEMENYA: What is the basis for your, what reason do you have to that conclusion?

BISHOP STOREY: The reason I’ve is that in our dealings with trying to resolve this abduction problem it became quite clear to me, very early in the piece, from the reports of the Crisis Committee, that they were negotiating with Mrs Mandela. She was in charge of that negotiation from the side of the Mandela house, she was the one who was deciding what would happen and whether the youths would be made available, given access to Crisis Committee members, she was the one who was making decisions about when and if and how and under what conditions they would be released. Therefore, it seems reasonable to me that she was aware of everything that was happening relating to those young people while they were in her house, and if Stompie was, indeed, killed or brought near to death in her house, I believe she knew about that, yes.

MR SEMENYA: Well, you seem to say Stompie was killed in her house. Where do you take that one from?

BISHOP STOREY: I didn’t say that. I said Stompie was killed, if Stompie was killed or was brought near to death in her house, I believe she would have known about it.

MR SEMENYA: Well, what ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: I don’t know where Stompie was killed. I’ve heard differing versions. I do know ... (intervention).

MR SEMENYA: Yes.

BISHOP STOREY: I do know where he was beaten. I do know where he was beaten to a condition where he was, apparently, near death. I don’t know where he was killed.

MR SEMENYA: Is that what you offer, sir, reason why you say Mrs Mandela knew in January of ’89?

BISHOP STOREY: Yes, I think it’s a reasonable inference.

MR SEMENYA: You would offer that as a reasonable inference that she knew that Stompie's body was lying somewhere there?

BISHOP STOREY: No, I don’t know whether she knew where Stompie's body was lying, I know where it was found, but the question was whether she knew about his death in early January, and I believe, yes, she did.

MR SEMENYA: Isn’t it correct, really, that the very first information coming to Mrs Mandela was from Falati that this children were in trouble at the manse? Do you have information that negate that position?

BISHOP STOREY: That Mrs Mandela received information from Ms Falati that something wrong was going on in the manse?

MR SEMENYA: Yes.

BISHOP STOREY: Is that the question?

MR SEMENYA: Yes.

BISHOP STOREY: No, I don’t have any reason to, I don’t know whether that’s true or not, but I certainly don’t have a reason not to believe it.

MR SEMENYA: Do you have any reason to believe that at that time Mrs Mandela ought to have known that there was no substance to this accusation?

BISHOP STOREY: No, not necessarily. She may have believed them.

MR SEMENYA: Do you have reason to believe that, even when the boys came public to say that they were molested, Mrs Mandela must have known that that allegation by them was factually incorrect?

BISHOP STOREY: Could you repeat that question?

MR SEMENYA: Do you have reason to believe that, when the boys accused Bishop Verryn of sexual molestation, that Mrs Mandela ought to have known that they were lying?

BISHOP STOREY: No, I’ve no reason to believe that the boys ever accused Reverend Verryn of sexual molestation, I’ve reason to believe that that accusation was beaten out of them.

MR SEMENYA: No, even if they were saying it out of coercion, as we now know, do you have reason to believe that Mrs Mandela, at that time, knew that that information is incorrect?

BISHOP STOREY: I don’t think that any information that comes from somebody who is being beaten half to death has any reliability, and the question arises as to why they have to be beaten before they give that information.

MR SEMENYA: Well, let us test that information. The very first time the information goes to Mrs Mandela is through Falati, who is not beaten.

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: So, at that moment there is no reason for caution. Am I correct?

BISHOP STOREY: I think there’s always reason for caution when somebody hears an allegation like that, because it’s a very serious one, and I think that there are two concerns when one hears such an allegation. The one concern is the welfare, of course, of any young people who may be, allegedly, being abused, but the other is for the reputation of a clergyman who has a very high reputation, and I would travel very cautiously in dealing with that kind of allegation. I certainly wouldn’t simply believe what I hear on the first report. But I said earlier in answer to your question, that it is quite possible that Mrs Mandela believed what she heard. If her first report was from Falati, it’s possible she believed what she heard from Falati.

MR SEMENYA: Now, something that you say, also, catches my attention. Because of a particular incident that Attorney Krish Naidoo brings Katiza with him, and you see fear and trepidation in the eyes of those who were there ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: ... you began to be suspicious of Krish Naidoo as well? Am I correct?

BISHOP STOREY: No, it wasn’t because of that event. Yes, it was partly because of that event. I think Mr Naidoo had given no indication that he was going to attend that meeting. That’s the first thing. But I think that the concern in the meeting was that they had taken trouble to keep the venue confidential, and the reason that they had done so was of concern that members of the football team might attack them, and so when Mr Naidoo arrives with Cebekhulu and a member of the football team, there is consternation. I wasn’t impressed with Mr Naidoo's behaviour at that time and would have to acknowledge, yes, that from then I was, I acted with some caution in respect to Mr Naidoo.

MR SEMENYA: And now we know that your suspicion about him was ill-founded. Is that right?

BISHOP STOREY: No, I don’t know that at all.

MR SEMENYA: Are you suggesting ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Order, please.

MR SEMENYA: Are you suggesting that Attorney Krish Naidoo had something to do with the disappearance of the children and that ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: Not at all, not at all, and I’ve never even implied that. I think that you need to realise that, in this very difficult and stressful time, we were also struggling to know who we were dealing with as spokespersons for or representatives of Mrs Mandela. It was Mr Ayob, and then, at some point, and I think, probably, I’ve a note of it, if the date is important, but I don’t think it is, Mr Ayob gave up in disgust and said I can’t handle this anymore. At that point, I think, Mr Naidoo came in as Mrs Mandela's attorney. The only other reference, in fact, the only reference I’ve made to Mr Naidoo, which in any way is critical of him, is that, when I asked to meet with the Crisis Committee, just prior to what I hoped would be a meeting with Mrs Mandela, Mr Naidoo appeared at that meeting and I questioned his right to be there, because he wasn’t a member of the Crisis Committee and I wanted to know what his status was in that meeting, and I asked him whether he was representing Mrs Mandela or not, and he said I’m a go-between. That’s the only word of mild criticism in my documentation about Mr Naidoo.

MR SEMENYA: Yes, but what I’m trying to say is now we know, unless if you have information to the contrary, that Krish Naidoo had no wrongdoing at that time.

BISHOP STOREY: Yes, I wasn’t sure of the propriety of his presence. I needed to know who he represented in that meeting, that’s all, and I wasn’t totally satisfied with his answer, but I allowed it to go and he stayed in the meeting.

MR SEMENYA: Are you saying what gave rise to your suspicion is because he was a legal representative to ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: Oh yes.

MR SEMENYA: ... to Mrs Mandela.

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR VALLY: I need to object here, Archbishop. The reason I want to object is Bishop Storey hasn’t got legal representation. Mrs Madikizela-Mandela has told us in our Section 29 in camera inquiry that Krish Naidoo was never her attorney.

MR SEMENYA: I didn’t understand the objection.

MR VALLY: The objection was very clear. Mr Ismail Semenya talked about Mr Krish Naidoo being the legal representative of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela. I pointed out that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela herself has said in the Section 29 in camera inquiry that Mr Krish Naidoo was never her attorney.

MR SEMENYA: The only question I had asked the witness, is were you suspicious of Krish Naidoo because he was ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: ... a representative of Mrs Mandela.

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: How does this objection arise?

CHAIRPERSON: I think you said "legal". I think you said "legal representative".

MR SEMENYA: That’s what the witness seems to confirm, that he held the view that Mr ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: So, I don’t see why this objection arises, really.

BISHOP STOREY: It was certainly my understanding, correct or incorrect, and it was an understanding which wasn’t, I don’t think, denied, it was a misapprehension which wasn’t put to rest by Mr Naidoo, to my knowledge. There was a period, and I can’t speak of exactly what that period was, where I understood that he was, in fact, representing Mrs Mandela, and I would want to respond as to why I was suspicious.

I was having a meeting, I understood, with the Crisis Committee prior to our meeting, our first meeting, finally achieved, with Mrs Mandela, which was going to take place in a matter of minutes. This was a preparatory meeting. Now, I would have fully expected Mr Naidoo to be present, and properly so, when the Crisis Committee accompanied by the church met with Mrs Mandela. I had

had no objection to that. What I was concerned about is what Mr Naidoo was doing in our meeting, our preparatory meeting with Mrs Mandela, and I raised that question, and he spoke in a way that certainly didn’t satisfy me, but I didn’t believe it was something that was worth making a big fuss and bother about, and so I allowed it to go.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, may this be a convenient time to take a lunch adjournment?

CHAIRPERSON: I’m sorry, the, one of the problems is we are guided by these people who feed us, and we’ve said we go up to, I mean, 1:30. I would have hoped we could finish with, I hope so, I mean, that we might be able to finish with a witness, so that we have a clean break and can start with somebody else after lunch.

MR SEMENYA: Can I, Chairperson, ask for a two-minute adjournment then?

CHAIRPERSON: So, I mean, yes, let’s, don’t say two minutes, because ...

MR SEMENYA: How much time can I’ve?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no (not translated). Ah, wait, it looks like, I mean, it looks like, I mean, it looks lunch has arrived, I mean. Let me just find out. No? I, I, order, please. Hello, the session is still on. Order, please. All right, let’s have the two minutes, we’ll break at 1:30.

HEARING ADJOURNS

MR SEMENYA: ... formation of the football team. Do you have information to gainsay that?

BISHOP STOREY: No, I think I need to say that I don’t know anything about the football team and how it was formed. Nothing at all. My first encounter or knowledge of the football team was on the day that Mrs Mandela's house was burnt in Soweto, and I went to visit her to commiserate with her. That was the first day when I received from her neighbour a report that a group known as the football team were living at the house, and the house had been burnt in revenge for some actions they had taken in the area. That’s the very first I know of the football team.

MR SEMENYA: Yes, I’m trying to go the distance of its formation, because I understood you to be saying people like Katiza Cebekhulu were members of that football team.

BISHOP STOREY: No, no, I wasn’t. The only time I referred to the football team, I mean, as this abduction drama developed so the words "the football team" became common currency and ... (intervention).

MR SEMENYA: That’s right.

BISHOP STOREY: ... everybody in the Crisis Committee talked about them as if they knew all about them. I didn’t know anything about them. My first acquaintance with them was as I’ve mentioned.

MR SEMENYA: Yes, that’s why I’m saying maybe we need to clear the background, because this football team keeps ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: ... coming up, and I’m just trying to test whether you have information that might not be consistent with my understanding. That, in fact, after a, the tensions that was in the youth league, culminating in some violence on either side of the divide, it was decided, and I was talking to the man who came up with the idea, to form a soccer team to reconcile the two groups. Is, you don’t have information inconsistent with that?

BISHOP STOREY: No, I don’t.

MR SEMENYA: Now, I have had an opportunity to discuss with Reverend Chikane, and my understanding is the formation of the Crisis Committee, why it was even called Crisis Committee was because the house of Mandela was burnt. Is this consistent with your understanding?

BISHOP STOREY: No, I have no independent knowledge. So, if, I can’t confirm or deny that. It could be absolutely true. I’ve no reason to think it’s not true.

MR SEMENYA: The mention of the Crisis Committee, as often as I have seen it, is given in the context that the crisis was the children who were abducted.

BISHOP STOREY: No, no, I was introduced to this group by Mr Chikane. I had not heard of them before, I had nothing to do with them before, I was not part of any of the Crisis Committee's activities or work prior to this abduction, but when Mr Chikane asked me whether the church would co-operate with, work with and through the community, that was the first time I was introduced to the Crisis Committee.

MR SEMENYA: What I’m trying to establish is up to this point, are you able to tell us why it was called the Crisis Committee?

BISHOP STOREY: No, no, I had no idea why it was called the Crisis Committee.

MR SEMENYA: You don’t, you don’t even know ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: We were living in perpetual crisis at the time, so it didn’t surprise me.

MR SEMENYA: I beg your pardon?

BISHOP STOREY: I said we were living in perpetual crisis at the time, so the use of that word for a Committee would not have been unusual or surprising to me.

MR SEMENYA: And, according to my information, that house was burnt arising out of a dispute that occurred on a soccer field, because some of the other team members were, in fact, schooling in Daliwonga.

BISHOP STOREY: I do not know why the house was burnt. I know what I assumed when I heard it was burnt. I assumed it had been, it was an attack by the security police, which I think was a reasonable assumption. I went to see Mrs Mandela in order to just give her my sympathies. I found her at her office, and did so. I then went up to her house to see the damage, and it was while I was standing there that a neighbour informed me that this had not been the work of the security police, but of some schoolchildren, because of, they were taking revenge for activities by, of some of the youths in that house. That’s all I know.

So, I mean, whether that is true, I don’t know. That was what I was told at the, on the day, and I must say, I was shaken, deeply shaken, because that was just something very unexpected. I was not aware of any background that would have made me expect that kind of thing.

MR SEMENYA: In some of your answers it comes out that children were refused access, I mean, this terminology you use suggests that the movement of the boys was restricted. In my understanding, it would seem the restriction to their movement that was there was because of Jerry Richardson.

BISHOP STOREY: No, not at all. My understanding, and it is based, as you correctly said at the outset of your cross-examination, it is based on reports I received from members of the Crisis Committee on their return from the Mandela house, and I want to say that it is quite clear, my recollection is absolutely clear, that the decisions as to whether access would be given, were Mrs Mandela's decisions. She made the decision, she was the one who said, no, you cannot see them, she was the one who said, yes, you may see them, to the various people who came seeking access to them.

MR SEMENYA: Well, maybe we’ll deal with those people when they come.

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: Let’s, I gained an impression from you, though, that, when Jerry Richardson was around, the two boys that you say you were with were scared.

BISHOP STOREY: Oh yes.

MR SEMENYA: And they seemed a little bit more relaxed when he was not on site.

BISHOP STOREY: Without any doubt, and they indicated later, they said, he is the worst of them all. I didn’t know who he was when I first went into that meeting where they were being handed over. He was a mystery man, but he was somebody one didn’t feel very comfortable to be around.

MR SEMENYA: Yes, it would seem that the one of, a definite element we are able to identify why this boys’ movement was restricted is Jerry Richardson.

BISHOP STOREY: Only, the only independent evidence I have of that, the only evidence I have of that at all, is that he accompanied them to Krish Naidoo's office on the day they were handed over, and, clearly, he had some role in their freedom or lack of freedom that day. It seemed to me he was an escort. However, he took no part in the discussion and, therefore, had no influence on whether those young people were handed over to me or not. The only influence he had was, at one point, I seem to recall him angrily and impatiently talking about the time, and that this must be got over with. So, I have no other evidence that he was the one who decided things.

MR SEMENYA: I’m sorry if I had mentioned that he decided anything. I’m saying he seems to have been an element that had limited the movement of the boys?

BISHOP STOREY: I think one could assume that from his role when I met him, yes.

MR SEMENYA: And in some of the references you’d say Mr Ayob told you that the boys would be released on certain conditions. Did I hear that evidence correctly?

BISHOP STOREY: I would have to be taken back through my document, because there were one or two occasions when Mr Ayob was involved, but on most occasions, as I recall it, he communicated with our attorney, Mr Haysom. For instance, on Saturday the 14th, he conveyed a message from Winnie, and when on the 16th, I’m just trying to find ... (intervention).

MS SOOKA: Page six.

CHAIRPERSON: Page six.

BISHOP STOREY: Page six. You would help me if you, sir, could tell me exactly what paragraph in my document you are referring to.

MR SEMENYA: I’ve scribbled on your evidence here when you are saying ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: Okay.

MR SEMENYA: ... Mrs Mandela would have agreed to release the children on certain conditions.

BISHOP STOREY: Yes, and I’m trying to find that reference in my document.

MR SOOKA: Mr Semenya, I think if you read on page six, it says that,

"Ayob replies that his instructions are that the children must be released unconditionally.".

BISHOP STOREY: Yes, I’ve got it. Those, that was conveyed to me by Mr, let’s see.

"I was phoned by Mr Haysom. He asked me to prepare accommodation. Then Xoliswa, Jerry and ...",

that’s Richardson,

"... and the, brought the three youths to Ayob. Ayob was told that before the children were handed over there were certain matters to discuss and conditions. Ayob replies that his instructions are that they must be released unconditionally. So, there’s a disagreement and they part with the matter unresolved."

Are you asking me where I received that information from?

MR SEMENYA: No, whether your evidence is that Mrs Mandela would have said the children would be released under certain conditions?

BISHOP STOREY: No, I can’t say, you know, I can’t say that with certainty. All I can say is that the message conveyed to Mr Ayob was that there were certain conditions, but I have not got in my notes nor do I have an independent recollection that the name of Mrs Mandela was mentioned there.

MR SEMENYA: No, I’m just trying to test the correctness of the language, because to me release on condition was an implicit admission that the people have been restrained. Now, I’m trying to understand who threw the concept or word "release them" or "hand them over".

BISHOP STOREY: There was no question in our minds that they had been restrained, none whatever. They were brought there under escort, they were taken away under escort, and Mr Ayob was told that they would be released to him only if certain conditions were met. He replied that he wasn’t prepared to go along with that, that they must be released unconditionally. So, yes, the implication is quite clear that they were under a form of restraint, they were not free agents.

MR SEMENYA: Who was their escort, by the way?

BISHOP STOREY: The escort was, to my knowledge, Xoliswa Falati and Jerry Richardson.

MR SEMENYA: At least at the place where this happened, there is no suggestion that Mrs Mandela had anything to do with their movement, the movement of these children.

BISHOP STOREY: Yes, I’ve said, I do not have her name down in my, in the notes made at the time and, therefore, you are right, yes. There is no evidence here that these were her conditions.

MR SEMENYA: Now, already Xoliswa Falati happens to be who she is. We know Richardson admits to certain of the murders. Is there any basis to suggest that, at that time, anyone other than Xoliswa Falati and Richardson had inhibited this boys to go wherever they would have chosen to?

BISHOP STOREY: Yes, as I said before, the evidence that suggests somebody in addition to them, is the evidence that was brought to me repeatedly by the Crisis Committee that the person who gave them permission or withheld it to see the youngsters was Mrs Mandela.

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me, please. I suspect, I mean, that you will be wanting to continue with Bishop Storey for quite a bit, and maybe the hope that we would have finished by lunch time was forlorn, and, therefore, I suggest that we break now, and we will have to have a shorter lunch than usual. If we can try to be back at two. Is that okay? Thank you very much for the democratic ... [end of tape 3b]

HEARING ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Order, please. All right. Peter Storey. Please just settle. You are still under oath. Thank you. Thank you, Mr Semenya. Maybe just - Hello. Please just sit down. Passengers are not allowed to be walking up and down the aisles. Thank you very much. Mr Semenya.

MR SEMENYA: Bishop, just finally, my information is that immediately Mrs Mandela came back from seeing Mr Mandela on that particular day the dissolution of the club was discussed, it was dissolved on that particular day, and the secretary of the team, at that time, one Absalom Madonsela(?), who is now in Jongkop, dissolved and even destroyed the records of the team. Do you have information to the contrary?

BISHOP STOREY: No, sir.

MR SEMENYA: And that no soccer was played beyond that time?

BISHOP STOREY: I’ve no idea.

MR SEMENYA: That it is possible that various individuals would have been described as members of the football team where no football at that time was played at all?

BISHOP STOREY: I’ve no idea.

MR SEMENYA: I’ve no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Yes.

MR KADES: Bishop Storey, my name is Norman Kades, I represent the Asvat family. Bishop, [inaudible], I represent the family of the late Dr Abu-Baker Asvat who, as you know, was murdered on the 27th of January of 1989. The family, Bishop, still seek answers to numerous questions that have been raised over the years, answers which have never, questions which have never been satisfactorily answered in so far as the family is concerned. Maybe, Bishop, you can assist us with regard to some of those outstanding matters.

BISHOP STOREY: I deeply and dearly wish I could. The Asvat family came to see me at some point after the doctor's murder, and we had a long discussion, but there was no information I could give them which would help in any way. I’ve read the theories, I find some of them very consistent with what I think may have happened, but I’ve no evidence to help, I’m afraid.

MR KADES: Well, Bishop, with regard to the information that you have and certain information that we have, which may not be, coincide with the information that you have, maybe you can assist us. You have told us of the meeting on Monday of the 16th of January of 1989, 10 days, 11 days prior to the murder of Dr Asvat. At that meeting you have told us of the arrival of Krish Naidoo, the attorney accompanied by Katiza Cebekhulu.

BISHOP STOREY: Yes, sir.

MR KADES: Did you know, at that stage, that Katiza Cebekhulu was the one who had originally accused Paul Verryn of having sodomised him?

BISHOP STOREY: I think so, yes.

MR KADES: You had access to Katiza Cebekhulu at that stage?

BISHOP STOREY: Oh, no.

MR KADES: Not at all?

BISHOP STOREY: No, the only time I met him was in Krish Naidoo's office when he ... (intervention).

MR KADES: Yes.

BISHOP STOREY: ... in fact, refused to come with me.

MR KADES: Well, Krish Naidoo arrived with him that evening of the 16th. Did he also leave with him or did he leave him in the custody of someone other than ...

BISHOP STOREY: I don’t know.

MR KADES: You don’t know. Did you not speak to Katiza ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: No.

MR KADES: ... Cebekhulu that evening?

BISHOP STOREY: No, I didn’t.

MR KADES: He did make a statement, did he not?

BISHOP STOREY: In front of the meeting?

MR KADES: He, yes, in front ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR KADES: ... of the meeting.

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR KADES: And he wasn’t asked, or did he volunteer information that he had been sodomised or even that he had been taken to a doctor?

BISHOP STOREY: He didn’t mention, to my memory, having been taken to a doctor. He may have, it is not part of my notes. He did make the allegation against Mr Verryn, that Mr Verryn had lain on top of him on one occasion.

MR KADES: When did you first have access to Cebekhulu, do you recall?

BISHOP STOREY: The only time I met him, the only time I met him was the afternoon of the 16th when I went to meet these youths at the office of Krish Naidoo.

MR KADES: Yes, thank you. Did you ever meet the late Dr Asvat?

BISHOP STOREY: I’m sure I had met him, yes, on a number of occasions, but we were not, we had run into each other, because ... (intervention).

MR KADES: Yes.

BISHOP STOREY: ... there were people you ran into at certain meetings and occasions in those days.

MR KADES: But you didn’t have any ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: I didn’t know him personally.

MR KADES: You didn’t have any dealings with him with regard to this incident?

BISHOP STOREY: No, sir.

MR KADES: And the accusations by the boys that they had been sodomised?

BISHOP STOREY: No, sir.

MR KADES: When you read the news, the Sunday Times of the 29th of January and the headline which linked the church to the murder of Dr Asvat, did you make any enquiries or any investigations concerning the evidence which might have been in the possession of Dr Asvat?

BISHOP STOREY: No. I mentioned, I think, earlier, that I was angry, this was such a bizarre and absurd allegation, but I didn’t make any investigations into the circumstances of Dr Asvat's death.

MR KADES: Well, the second paragraph of the entry, of your entry on the 29th of January is that you convened or you set about convening a meeting with key community members and ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: Oh yes, yes.

MR KADES: ... and that you also spoke to Dr Motlana.

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR KADES: This was, obviously, a most disturbing, as you have told us, accusation against the church and a matter which concerned you very greatly, and you had to deal with it.

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR KADES: Can you tell us who these community leaders were at that meeting that you set about meeting?

BISHOP STOREY: I’m afraid I don’t think I can. I can’t remember.

MR KADES: Well, well, ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: I can’t remember even whether Mr, Dr Motlana was, no, I think the, let me just, I’m trying to recall.

MR KADES: Please.

BISHOP STOREY: I think the misunderstanding lies in the language of my notes. The discussion with Dr Motlana, as I recall, was a telephone discussion. The fact that I set about convening a meeting does not, necessarily, imply that the meeting took place then. I think the meeting that I set about trying to put together, in fact, is the meeting referred to on Monday the 30th, but what I did do, and I think this is a slight revision of my answer to your question earlier, I spoke with Dr Motlana on the phone and I, I’m sure, initiated that phone call, and I wanted to know from him what kind of possible, even, whether there was anything rational, at all, about this kind of allegation that had been made in the Sunday Times, and that’s when he used the words that I’ve written there ... (intervention).

MR KADES: Yes.

BISHOP STOREY: ... about such evidence not being possible.

MR KADES: And when you talk of convening a meeting with key community leaders, is it correct to assume that the key community leaders you speak of were the members of the Crisis Committee who were concerned in this matter and with whom you had had dealings throughout this period?

BISHOP STOREY: Well, as I indicated, it is also very difficult to get a consistent group of people together, but the people are mentioned on Monday the 30th, there is Dan and M, that’s Dan Masoge, Nat Ramagopa, Stewart Ngwenya, and somebody whose surname I didn’t and can’t remember, and they were not the Crisis Committee, in fact. As you will see, something of the tenure of the discussion in that meeting was impatience with the Crisis Committee.

MR KADES: Yes.

BISHOP STOREY: So, you actually had two groups of people. You had the Crisis Committee, who had been entrusted with handling this crisis, but you also had other community leaders who ... (intervention).

MR KADES: (...Indistinct).

BISHOP STOREY: ... vacillated sometimes in terms of the degree to which they believed the Crisis Committee was doing its job.

MR KADES: Yes, who had an agenda maybe different to that of what the Crisis Committee might have been perceived to have at the time?

BISHOP STOREY: I don’t know what is implied by that.

MR KADES: I’m not implying anything ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: Thank you.

MR KADES: ... but presumably ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: Then I will not respond.

MR KADES: ... presumably members of the Crisis Committee will tell us why they were not available. These people that you mention here, Dan M, Nat R, Stewart Ngwenya and Elias, are those people whom you regarded as ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: Community ... (intervention).

MR KADES: ... as key community leaders ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: Yes, I think ... (intervention).

MR KADES: ... at the time?

BISHOP STOREY: I think the right word to use is underground community leaders.

MR KADES: Did you ever have any discussions with any members of the Crisis Committee, and, please, if you did, will you name them, concerning the murder of Dr Asvat and their investigations into that murder?

BISHOP STOREY: I don’t think so. I don’t think so. I’ve no independent recollection of that.

MR KADES: And you can’t recall any discussions with any of them that you linked to the death of Dr Asvat, you yourself or they?

BISHOP STOREY: I think all I can say is that, obviously, first the murder and then the accusations carried in the newspaper were a great shock, and so I’ve no doubt that we did talk about it, that it was raised, that it was talked about, but I can’t at any point recall that, or let me put it this way: if the Crisis Committee decided that that now fell within the ambit of their responsibilities, they didn’t necessarily share that with me.

MR KADES: But not even in general discussions concerning the events of that period, do you recall anything?

BISHOP STOREY: I don’t recall anything of significance, but I’m quite sure we must have, it must have come up in conversation. You could not avoid it.

MR KADES: Yes.

BISHOP STOREY: But I don’t know what was said.

CHAIRPERSON: I want to find out how much more, you know, I’m going to be sticking to time, have you? Right.

MR KADES: The statement of the 16th of February 1989, the Mass Democratic Press Conference which you have referred to.

BISHOP STOREY: Yes, sir.

MR KADES: Did you ever receive or find any information relating to the reason for the making of that statement, the reasons behind that press conference, did any member of the Crisis Committee ever discuss that with you, tell you what their findings were ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: No.

MR KADES: ... that led to the statement?

BISHOP STOREY: No, I welcomed the statement. I believed it was principled, that it was the least that could happen, given the kind of thing that was coming out day after day and given what we had been wrestling with, and I’ve already indicated that I believe it was one of those few moments when in politics principle rises above expediency and courage above cowardice, but I never discussed with anybody, neither did anybody ask me or consult with me prior to the issuing of that statement. It took place at the Central Methodist Mission and I was there for part of it, I remember.

MR KADES: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Any other? Yes.

MR KUNY: Chairperson, I just have one ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: Who am I speaking to, sir?

MR KUNY: It is Mr Kuny representing Ms Falati. I just have, there is just one issue that I would like to clarify with you. On page 12 of your memorandum you refer to the fact that you go home and view a video.

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR KUNY: And you then proceed to describe in some detail what appears to be what Mrs Mandela had said on that video. Is that correct? I wonder if you could just perhaps ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR KUNY: ... have a look at page 12 ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR KUNY: ... at the top, the first paragraph.

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR KUNY: And it starts, "In the video Mrs Mandela ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR KUNY: ... claims.

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR KUNY: And then about six or seven lines down there appears to be, what appears to be a quote,

"The tragedy is the issue of the Reverend Paul Verryn that there ... (intervention)

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR KUNY: "... is a medical problem".

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR KUNY: You actually gave evidence about that.

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR KUNY: Could you just tell the Commission, is this a précis or a recounting of what you viewed in that video?

BISHOP STOREY: I think it is a verbatim, you know, I've put it in quotes, and I think it is verbatim what Mrs Mandela, it's not everything she said at all but it seemed to me to be the meat and the heart of what was particularly of concern to me, which was the references to Paul Verryn and the Church and cover-ups and things like that ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: I’m sorry to interrupt. Mr Kuny has got a transcript of the TV interview in his file.

BISHOP STOREY: Well, then, a comparison can be made and if I’ve been inaccurate at all you will discover that, sir.

MR KUNY: Thank you. Mr Chairperson, if I could perhaps just finish the question and establish, does that go to the end of the paragraph, "Church.…", the last sentence, "Church in a problem and their only interest is covering their image"?

BISHOP STOREY: I think so. I think if I were to analyse the way I do things, if they are in quotes, then I think that’s, I can be fairly certain those are the words as they were spoken, whether there were other things said in that paragraph I haven't seen, I haven't seen any, what's the word? - transcripts, so I may have left something out, but I’ve a fair confidence that those are virtually, if not exactly, the words that she used. If there's a sentence left out it's a sentence I didn't think was important for me to note for my concerns about how the church was being attacked and Mr Verryn's integrity was being attacked.

MR KUNY: Thank you, Bishop. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

MR UNTERHALTER: Bishop Storey, David Unterhalter for the Chili family. Might I refer you to page 8 of your memorandum and the penultimate paragraph on that page? You will recall that in your testimony you referred to this passage, which was at the meeting which was held on the 16th of January, and just to refresh your memory you say the following

"This was followed by evidence from another youth who had once belonged to the soccer team and had left. He related a long story about the team harassing him until they finally caught him and cut his throat with a pair of gardening shears. He indicated the recently stitched wound and said that he had been left for dead before managing to get assistance at a nearby hostel".

You weren't certain as to the identity of that person. Is it possible, I know it's some time ago and hard to recall, but is it possible that that person was Lerathodi Ikaneng?

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR UNTERHALTER: Then next, Bishop Storey, if I might then just refer you to your further record which you indicated was based on your diary, rough notes, and press reports, and the entry next to Tuesday the 14th of February 1989, you will see there, and as you explained that, I think your words were, that the Mandela Football Club was on the hunt, I think those were your words, but in any event you then reflect the following. You say

"News of an attack on Dudu Chili house, woman and 13-year-old girl shot. House burnt. Also killing of one Football Team member".

Is it possible that the date that you have there might have brought together two separate events? Because my client's version of this will be that the house was in fact attacked and set alight on the 28th of February, but that the incident with the Football Team member was on the 13th of February. Is it possible that there's a confusion of dates in this rough record?

BISHOP STOREY: It is possible.

MR UNTERHALTER: Thank you, Bishop.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Richard.

MR : Might I ask just one question please, I beg your indulgence just for the one.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR : Bishop, during this period and all the meetings that you've had with Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, the meetings at which she was present, did she ever tell you or tell the meeting that on the day of the 29th of December of 1988 that she had not been present at her home and that she had been in Brandfort all day?

BISHOP STOREY: I need to correct the first part of your question, I didn't have any meetings with Mrs Mandela. I’m referring only to reports from the Crisis Committee. At no time did any Crisis Committee report to me indicate that Mrs Mandela had said that she had been absent on that day.

MR : Did you not meet her at all during this period?

BISHOP STOREY: No.

MR : Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: Thank you, Mr Chair, Tony Richard representing Mr Richardson. Bishop, at your meeting at Attorney Naidoo's office with Xoliswa, Richardson and the attorney, your evidence is that the two, that’s Xoliswa Falati and Mr Jerry Richardson were merely minions, is that correct?

BISHOP STOREY: Which meeting, sir?

MR RICHARD: It's the meeting at Krish Naidoo's office on the 16th.

BISHOP STOREY: Incorrect, Miss Falati wasn't there.

MR RICHARD: I’ve a note here which I didn't note the date of the meeting, but you met with Xoliswa Falati, Richardson and Ayob.

BISHOP STOREY: No.

MR RICHARD: I beg your pardon I withdraw the question. No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, yes. Hanif.

MR VALLY: Are you asking me if I want to re-examine?

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

MR VALLY: No, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: No.

MR VALLY: I did want to say though that Bishop Storey has indicated that he had a statement he wants to read out and maybe this is an appropriate time to do that.

MR RICHARD: After conferring with my colleague, I request permission to persist with that question. It's only one.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR RICHARD: The question is, at your meeting where Mr Richardson was present, did he present himself as a person in authority or as a mere minion?

BISHOP STOREY: He presented himself as an angry and threatening kind of person. I didn't know who he was, he gave me a false name because I demanded to know who I was meeting with and, as you will see in my record on page 6, this older man indicated that he was Manwa Maseko. In the long discussion that ensued about - Mr Naidoo was saying these young people want to make allegations against Mr Verryn, and I was saying that’s fine, make all the allegations they like, as long as they know that I’m going to ask hard questions about the circumstances of their removal from the Mission. And this was the gist of the discussion. My recollection is that my discussion was primarily with Mr Naidoo. I don't recollect speaking with Richardson as he turned out to be. It's only when we left that the youths told me in the car that that man who was with them was Richardson, and he's the worst of the lot. But he was angry, he was threatening, there was a sense of physical threat about his presence. I wasn’t comfortable there, and it was clear that the young people acted differently once he was no longer there. But he, as I said earlier, I recall him speaking very angrily largely about getting this over with, time, hurry up, that was the kind of - it was like voices in the background sort of rumbling while we were trying to - I was trying to find out who I was dealing with, were these really the young people, I didn't know. These were the things I was trying to find out and there was this kind of pressure on us from this man. That's all I know.

MR RICHARD: Mr Richardson's instructions are that he did everything with the full knowledge, cooperation, and on the instructions of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela. The other suggestions that I’ve heard are not in accordance with those instructions.

Now what I’m asking, at that meeting was he giving the attorney instructions or was he simply commentating from the back?

BISHOP STOREY: No, he wasn’t giving the attorney instructions, and it was apparent that the attorney had instructions from elsewhere, yes.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Hlengiwe.

MS MKHIZE: Thank you, Bishop. I’ve just got two related questions. When you started you indicated that you got involved in a hostage negotiation. Also quite early in your statement you indicated that you were not leaving to go to a meeting which was asked by Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, and also in your brief notes for Bishop, you narrated points, events, which you had sent to the President, and I noted that you left out again that you had refused to go to a meeting. I’m merely asking this because we take you as one of the witnesses who had no political interest in the whole scenario. I just wanted your comment as to the negotiations and refusing to negotiate with a person who is really a (...indistinct) person.

And then also in your points to the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Ask one question and then let him answer.

MS MKHIZE: It's easy, he will break it up, Chairperson. On point No.13 you say this is the latest ...(intervention)

BISHOP STOREY: Is this in my notes to President Mandela?

MS MKHIZE: Yes.

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MS MKHIZE: You say this is the latest in many incidents, she is implicated in high-level common-law crimes, that’s (...indistinct), I was just interested whether it refers to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, and whether what she was implicated in. It is something which might be of interest to us.

BISHOP STOREY: No, I will answer the second question first. These are shorthand notes, this is an exact replica of notes I made to convey to Bishop Magoba by telephone. So the sentences mustn't be read as if they make perfect English sense. By the time we had reached this stage in trying to deal with this crisis, I had become aware of many other incidents involving particularly the Football Team, because you can't deal with one aspect of what they are alleged to have done without then people saying, oh yes, but I mean this isn't the first time that there's this and that, and I had been to the meeting, and I had listened to somebody talk about how they had cut their throat, and so on. So I was saying to Mr Mandela, you need to know that this is not an isolated incident. That's the first thing.

The capitals is simply saying to Mr Mandela, this is a common-law crime, this is not a political thing. One understands the atmosphere we were living in and the capacity and possibility of people to do things under political pressure and for political reasons which this Commission is uncovering and dealing with all the time, and I think understanding very often why people did things. This was a common-law crime. This was kidnapping, and he needed to understand that this was not a political harassment going on here, or a political issue. Fundamentally it was a common-law crime.

Now your earlier question is harder to answer, because I feel even now the dilemma that I was in when I get a message that Mrs Mandela wants to see me. But I had made a commitment, I had made a commitment to work with the community. I had sat listening to the Crisis Committee, consisting of people who had far, far more senior positions in the movement, people who had enjoyed much more respect in the community than I did, who had gone to that home and been completely stone-walled and had achieved nothing. Some of them had gone as a group. The question was whether I going alone into that place would have achieved anything. That was one question.

The second question was how could we achieve anything in a place where these youngsters who were still being held in captivity, what would be the usefulness of speaking with them if they were not free to speak their minds, and there was complete agreement by everybody who had been to that house that those young people were not free to speak their minds. But I think the supreme thing was that I was not prepared to do it unless I had consulted with the community, and as it was I’ve indicated I had some difficulty finding the people I wanted to consult with. I also wanted to consult with the leader of my Church, because as far as I was concerned this was changing the ball game quite significantly if I was to go in there, and I would want some affirmation that this is the right thing to do. My advice was ultimately, and all I could do was (...indistinct), no, do not go unless you have the community approval. It could be misunderstood. So I didn't. And, you know, that may have been a mistake, it may have been wrong, maybe I could have achieved their release a little earlier, I don't know, but that was the decision made, and I have to say I think I did it with the right bona fides.

CHAIRPERSON: Khoza.

MR MGOJO: Thank you, Bishop. Dr Storey, I want to refer you to the secrecy meeting of the Crisis Committee (...indistinct) and you've said there was a (...indistinct) part of that Committee in the name of Krish Naidoo.

BISHOP STOREY: Ja.

MR MGOJO: And when he was asked why he was in that meeting, he said he was a go-between. In the context of that meeting, what did you understand that to mean?

BISHOP STOREY: That he was a go-between between Mrs Mandela and the Crisis Committee and possibly the Church as well, the go-between between Mrs Mandela and the group of people who were sitting there …[indistinct] the Crisis Committee and …[indistinct]

MR MGOJO: Did he say who had sent him to be in that meeting?

BISHOP STOREY: No, I can't remember whether he did say that.

MR MGOJO: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. You have a statement you have said you wanted to ...(intervention)

BISHOP STOREY: Yes, I would crave the indulgence of the Commission just briefly if I may. I’ve been questioned for quite a long time and have had to hear that this is the first time this document has ever come to light, the investigators in the two trials never bothered to ask for it. But I do want to do more than just respond to questions here today, and to say that I really hope and pray that these hearings will give us the truth, because throughout this saga I believe the truth has been trimmed to prevailing political whims by politicians very often, by people with political interests. Or the truth has been suppressed because people have vanished and feared for their lives. I really believe that to dispel this suffocating fog of silence and lies is very important for the future of this country.

At the funeral of Stompie Seipei I said that his death was an unspeakable crime and that "these past few weeks have probed beneath the surface of South Africa's shame". I notice that that's now part of the title of a book, sir, and that the journalist who wrote the book is courageously refusing to acknowledge the sources there. But that it has exposed the deeper hidden wounds these years have carved into the people's souls, and these are the wounds, sir, the erosion of conscience, the devaluing of human life, the evasion of truth, and the reckless resort to violence. And I think that part of the painful discovery that has come to these hearings, and you will know this better than, I sir, and I frankly do not know how you people cope with what you’ve had to listen to over these past couple of years. The primary cancer may be, and was, will always be the apartheid oppression, but the secondary infection has touched many of apartheid's opponents and eroded their knowledge of good and evil.

One of the tragedies of life, sir, is it is possible to become like that which we hate most, and I have a feeling that this drama is an example of that. And unless this fact is recognised, then all the truth will not have been told, and we will never admit to what really happened in this case, and that's why I thought the kidnapping and the murder of Stompie Seipei are important beyond the normal horror we should feel, because at one level they may have been common-law crimes, but they are also about the ruthless abuse of power, even given the latitude of a time of struggle, and they resemble far too closely the abuses of apartheid itself. We have got a right to know that we’ve left that era behind, and that matter we will not know that, none of us will be (...indistinct) until there is clarity about this…[indistinct]

I feel whenever I have - this is the third time I’ve had to give evidence, it's nice not to be quite as lonely as the first two occasions, it's nice to know that other people are coming forward now to help us find the truth, but I think we need to see this in the second of the big tragedies that we’ve lived through in this country, has done things to people that we will never …[indistinct], wounded and they have hurt and they've destroyed people's ability to know the difference between right and wrong. It is a moral tragedy, not just a political one.

And, sir, somebody once said, it is not enough to become politically liberated, we must also become human. This case is about becoming human again and recognising the inhumanities which some of us were capable of because of the times we used to live in.

I want to thank this Commission and you, sir, if I may, for the words of affirmation given to my colleague and successor as Bishop, Paul Verryn. I don't know if anyone will ever know what it is like for seven years to see your name used by the media consistently and without (...indistinct) in spite of the fact that the allegations made against him have been thrown out by two judges, that the media has never used the name of Mr Verryn without associating him with the words sodomy or rape. I think that's disgraceful, and I hope, sir, we've seen the end to that, and that this amazing Christian who served the people of this land will be able to walk from this place knowing he has been exonerated.

And in connection with that, sir, I want to say I admire him for the grace with which he has borne this burden. To my knowledge, sir, everybody who has publicly accused him of these dreadful misdemeanours has withdrawn those words except one - it is my hope that before these hearings are ended that last remaining accuser will use this opportunity to withdraw her words and to take back the accusations that she made against him.

Finally, sir, I want to also express, as I did a little earlier, my deep admiration for an understanding of the dilemma faced by the internal leaders at the time of this crisis. I don't think anybody can with hindsight even begin to feel the pain that they had in trying to deal with this crisis and what it cost them. And if there are those who would accuse [indistinct] others of not having acted quite as decisively as he should, or perhaps having made a decision here or there which could have been different, then I just need to try and live myself back into those moments.

And, you know, right through this, sir, we just hoped against hope that certain people who enjoyed the respect and adulation of the people would not be directly implicated, that there would be some way in which we would discover that that wasn't the problem. The (...indistinct) drama we hoped against hope that a little boy called Stompie would turn up alive. Those were not easy days, and I just want to say thank you to those who helped me try and deal with this at the time. Those were the things I wanted to say and I’m grateful for the time you have given me, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. I’m deeply grateful to you Peter (...indistinct) to return to enjoy your sabbatical. Thank you.

We now call Steve Mabelane.

MR VALLY: Arch, I just want to state that what has been given out now, by me now, is the statement from Jabu Sithole as well as the submission we've received from the Mandela Crisis Committee. We’ve just received them and that's what we are giving out now.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Miller. Order please. I think we’ve got a problem with regard to your name, Jabu Sithole.

Let me start then by welcoming you and thanking you, because we were going to have had you yesterday, but you and your legal representative have been able to arrange that you would return today. Now Yasmin Sooka is going to administer the oath.

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: (sworn in)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Miller.

MR MILLER: Thank you, Chairperson. May I first inform Mr Sithole, as Chairperson has stated, it is your right to speak English, but if you feel more at home at any stage in your own language, please don't hesitate to switch to it. Now did you know Mrs Winnie Mandela?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

MR MILLER: Where did you meet her, under what circumstances?

MR SITHOLE: I met Mrs Mandela somewhere late in 1987 and circumstances therefore were my seeking of assistance because I was a scholar by then.

CHAIRPERSON: Hello, hello! Order please. Please take that person out whoever it is. You are just disturbing the proceedings. (Individual removed for disturbing the proceedings). Order please. Mr Miller.

MR MILLER: Thank you, Chairperson. You say you were a scholar, what were you studying?

MR SITHOLE: In 1987 I was studying Standard 7 of which I wanted to pursue my studies further, and I went to Mrs Mandela for assistance financially, mentally and otherwise, of which she did assisted me by taking me to a school somewhere in Fordsburg. The name of the school was Perseverance.

MR MILLER: And you say, if I understand you correctly, that Mrs Mandela paid for your schooling?

MR SITHOLE: That's correct, yes.

MR MILLER: And where did you live at this time?

MR SITHOLE: Presently?

MR MILLER: No, at that time in 1987, where did you live?

MR SITHOLE: At that time I was living with my late grandmother in Orlando West.

MR MILLER: Ja, but did you move from there?

MR SITHOLE: I did move from my grandmother's place to live with Mrs Mandela, not for a long time. But I was somebody who moved time and again from Mrs Mandela to my place.

MR MILLER: I see, so when did you live with Mrs Mandela?

MR SITHOLE: It was - yes in 1987, I don't know the month, but it was late, somewhere in October and November.

MR MILLER: Was this in Orlando or was it in Diepkloof?

MR SITHOLE: It was still in Orlando West.

MR MILLER: And at a certain stage Mrs Mandela's house burnt down.

MR SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

MR MILLER: And what happened then, did you go and move in her new house?

MR SITHOLE: No, sir, I didn't move with Mrs Mandela. I set up my study, staying then with my parents in Orlando East.

MR MILLER: I see, but did you still visit Mrs Mandela after you moved out?

MR SITHOLE: Definitely yes, sir, because there was a friend of mine who lived – he’s a relative of Mrs Mandela, who lived there, and I was studying with him. Then we two made a ...(indistinct).

MR MILLER: I see, so during 1998, did you see or visit Mrs Mandela at all?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, in fact not specifically her, but the friend of mine which I was studying, in addition to meet with Mrs Mandela, because she was the one who was facilitating the funds for our schooling. Then I had to have some talking with her.

MR MILLER: So in other words she continued to facilitate your studies even after you were no longer living with her?

MR SITHOLE: That's positive, yes.

MR MILLER: And you visited there from time to time.

MR SITHOLE: Yes.

MR MILLER: That was now in Diepkloof?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

MR MILLER: Now during the time that you got to know Mrs Mandela, were you aware of the existence of the Mandela United Football Club?

MR SITHOLE: What I was aware of is the name of the Mandela Football Club, but to say to you presently that there were members of the Mandela United Football Club, I can't say it and I can't confirm it.

MR MILLER: Did you ever see this Football Club playing soccer?

MR SITHOLE: Whilst I was in Orlando West – yes, definitely the club, which was the comrades who were staying with Mrs Mandela, they used, yes, to play because I still remember on two occasions, myself being involved on attending, being a supporter, the soccer players around the location in Orlando West, somewhere in a ground called Shanty. And at some other instance in Noordgesig with local clubs.

MR MILLER: And it has been said at the hearings that members of this Football Club were involved in violent incidents. Can you comment on that?

MR SITHOLE: It's difficult for me to substantiate or comment on something that was out of my eyes, but as far as I know the comrades who were there, I don't remember even one making those things which are ...(indistinct) by other people.

MR MILLER: So you never witnessed any violent incidents?

MR SITHOLE: That's positive, yes.

MR MILLER: Now you were arrested, were you not, together –well, you were one of the accused in the Stompie Seipei kidnapping trial, is that correct?

MR SITHOLE: I think that's what I'm here for. Yes, I did, I was arrested.

MR MILLER: And did you pay bail?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, that's positive.

MR MILLER: And what happened after you paid bail?

MR SITHOLE: After I paid bail, well, because I was politically active in the location, somewhere in 1990 when the trial was supposed to happen, I left the country due to political activeness which I was involved, of which I didn't attend to the trial because I thought by then it was not necessary for me to attend the apartheid court.

MR MILLER: So were you in any way guilty of the crimes of which you were charged?

MR SITHOLE: That's negative, because even if that Stompie's thing happened, even if the abduction happened, I was not even in Winnie Mandela's place, because I think by that time it was the time when our schools were closed and I was at my place.

MR MILLER: So you know nothing about Stompie's kidnapping and/or murder?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, definitely.

MR MILLER: Do you know anything about any of the other incidents that have been mentioned? I'll just mention a couple a couple of them to you. For example do you know anything about the death of Lolo Sono?

MR SITHOLE: I think what I want the Commission to tell me is, what did they call me here, because it's my first time hearing about Lolo Sono in this Commission.

MR MILLER: You've never heard about this before?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, that's what I said.

MR MILLER: And Dudu Chili? Do you know anything about her?

MR SITHOLE: I know this Dudu because I'm not staying far away from - my grandmother in fact didn't stay away from her place where she was staying.

MR MILLER: But do you know anything about her house being burnt down, or something like that?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, as a member of the community, yes, I should know that because it was not far away from our place then. I know about it that the house was burnt.

MR MILLER: But you didn't witness it?

MR SITHOLE: No, definitely not.

MR MILLER: And Dr Asvat?

MR SITHOLE: I only heard about it.

MR MILLER: You were not in any way a witness to anything concerning his death?

MR SITHOLE: That's negative, I never witnessed anything concerning that.

MR MILLER: Thank you, Chairperson, no further ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Order please. Hanif?

MR SITHOLE: Ja, in fact before maybe I can be cross-questioned, there are some of the things which really disturb me, like for instance my presence in this Commission. I see it irrelevant for myself to be here.

CHAIRPERSON: Wait a bit, you will get it from him. You will hear why you are here. Order please. Hanif?

MR VALLY: Thank you, Arch. Mr Sithole, you were arrested on 19th of February 1989 at the household of Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela together Jerry Richardson and two others?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

MR VALLY: What were you arrested for?

MR SITHOLE: I was picked up in the yard of Mrs Mandela because that day on the 18th I slept at Mrs Mandela's place. Then the police came and picked up everybody who was sleeping there.

MR VALLY: Did you stay there regularly?

MR SITHOLE: That's negative.

MR VALLY: So was it the first time you stayed there?

MR SITHOLE: It was not the first time sleeping there, I sometimes slept there.

MR VALLY: How often did you sleep there?

MR SITHOLE: I can't say presently how often but sometimes maybe on weekends I used to sleep there and sometimes during the week when maybe we were studying with my friends. Then I can sleep.

MR VALLY: So you stayed there weekends and you stayed there sometimes during the week?

MR SITHOLE: That's positive.

MR VALLY: Where was your residence?

MR SITHOLE: My residence were in Orlando East and Orlando West because in fact I was (...indistinct) Orlando West.

MR VALLY: Did you also stay at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's houses in Orlando West?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, sir, as I've just stated that, not regularly.

MR VALLY: So you stayed in the house in Orlando West as well Diepkloof Extension?

MR SITHOLE: In Diepkloof Extension I used to visit, because I can't say, maybe I stayed there maybe for two or three or four consecutive days, but I used to be there sometimes for two days or one.

MR VALLY: You say that you had a friend who used to stay with Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, who was this friend?

MR SITHOLE: That's Vusiso Mabuza.

MR VALLY: Did you have any relatives who stayed with Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

MR SITHOLE: Can you repeat that question?

MR VALLY: Do you have any relatives who stayed with Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

MR SITHOLE: Any relative presently, yes, I can say yes.

MR VALLY: Tell us who.

MR SITHOLE: That's Zinzi's son.

MR VALLY: How is he related to you?

MR SITHOLE: Sizwe Sithole, the father of the son is my - was my cousin, in fact.

MR VALLY: So you had a relative staying at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house, namely Sizwe Sithole?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, that's positive.

MR VALLY: Do you know what you were charged with when you were arrested with Jerry Richardson and others?

MR SITHOLE: Definitely not.

MR VALLY: Did you make a warning statement?

MR SITHOLE: No.

MR VALLY: I want to show you a warning statement that you made to the police and tell me if you recognise that.

MR MILLER: I wonder, Chairperson, if I could have a copy please.

MR VALLY: It should be in your file, Mr Miller.

MR VALLY: Do you recognise your signature on that?

MR SITHOLE: I only recognise my name but not my signature.

MR VALLY: Did you ever appear in court in connection with your arrest?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, I did.

MR VALLY: Did they ask you to plead guilty or not guilty while you were in court?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, they did.

MR VALLY: What charges did they put to you?

MR SITHOLE: I can't understand the charges because I think the Commission mis-recognised my age by then.

MR VALLY: What was your age at the time?

MR SITHOLE: I was born in 1972, I think the Commissioner can just calculate along those lines.

(General laughter)

MR VALLY: I’ll try and help you.

CHAIRPERSON: Order please. How good is your arithmetic?

MR VALLY: You were 17 at the time when you were arrested?

MR SITHOLE: That's what I think according to your calculation.

MR VALLY: Did you understand the charges put to you in court at the age of 17?

MR SITHOLE: Definitely no, because even now I’m not sure what was really my charge by then.

MR VALLY: When you appeared in court who did you appear with?

MR SITHOLE: I firstly appeared with a Mr Jerry Richardson.

MR VALLY: Do you know what Mr Jerry Richardson is doing now?

MR SITHOLE: According to my understanding he has been in prison for the murder of Stompie.

MR VALLY: Now if you know that Jerry is still in prison for the murder of Stompie, and you were in court with him, why are you trying to play games around this issue?

MR SITHOLE: Sir, I’m trying to put to you that my charge, I didn't know my charge by then, because I think there are three charges involved in this case.

MR VALLY: I understand. What three charges?

MR SITHOLE: According to my knowledge it's kidnapping, assault and a murder.

MR VALLY: Thank you. The statement I've shown you just now that you made when you were arrested, do you agree you made a statement?

MR SITHOLE: No, in fact what is written there it's in Afrikaans, and I can't even read a sentence in Afrikaans, then I can't say it's my statement.

MR VALLY: Do you recognise your signature?

MR SITHOLE: As I’ve just said that I only saw, I only see my name but not my signature.

MR VALLY: I've just shown you your signature, do you recognise your signature?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, I can see my name.

MR VALLY: Is it your signature?

MR SITHOLE: No, it's not my signature.

MR VALLY: Do you remember putting your fingerprint onto a statement when you were arrested?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

MR VALLY: Thank you. Do you know Lerathodi Ikaneng?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

MR VALLY: How do you know him?

MR SITHOLE: He's an elder friend.

MR VALLY: Is he a friend of yours?

MR SITHOLE: He was my brother's friend, and in fact we are living in the same location.

MR VALLY: Are you aware of what happened to him?

MR SITHOLE: No, I don't have any idea.

MR VALLY: Have you met him recently?

MR SITHOLE: Recently, what do you mean?

MR VALLY: Last year.

MR SITHOLE: Yes, I did meet with him.

MR VALLY: Does anything look different about him?

MR SITHOLE: No, I can't see anything different.

MR VALLY: You haven't seen the scars on his throat?

MR SITHOLE: I happen to be ignorant on checking on people.

MR VALLY: A man has his throat slit with a massive scar on his throat, and you tell me he's a friend of yours, and you don't notice the difference?

MR SITHOLE: He appears to be not a full-time friend of mine, he is just an ordinary friend who lives in a location.

MR VALLY: Mr Sithole, what work are you doing now?

MR SITHOLE: Presently I’m a protection service member in Air Force Company South Africa.

MR VALLY: Are you aware that if you lie under oath you are committing a crime?

MR SITHOLE: That's positive, yes.

MR VALLY: Will you please stop fooling with us, we don't have time to fool around. Answer the questions honestly and directly, and we'll finish off.

MR SITHOLE: Yes, I think what I’m giving to you is a true reflection of what I am.

MR VALLY: What happened to Sizwe Sithole?

MR SITHOLE: To my understanding, Sizwe Sithole died in prison.

MR VALLY: What was he arrested for?

MR SITHOLE: I’m definitely not sure of the charges therefore.

MR VALLY: Did you ever make enquiries when your cousin was arrested as to what he was arrested for?

MR SITHOLE: By that time, sir, the political situation was so tense for myself, and then I didn't have time to play around the police station.

MR VALLY: Well let's talk about that then. You were arrested for, amongst other things, the kidnapping and assault of Stompie Seipei, Kenny Gase, Pelo Mekgwe, and Thabiso Mono, can you confirm that?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

MR VALLY: You were released on bail, who paid your bail?

MR SITHOLE: Mrs Mandela paid my bail.

MR VALLY: After you were released on bail, you absconded, is that true?

MR SITHOLE: That's correct.

MR VALLY: Who helped you leave the country?

MR SITHOLE: Comrades within the location ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Can you tell us specifically who?

MR SITHOLE: I can't specify the person because I happen to be - to having no knowledge of who exactly helped me, but what I can say is that we manoeuvred as comrades to get out of the country.

MR VALLY: Do you know who helped you?

MR SITHOLE: No, I don't know who helped me. I’m saying we manoeuvred to get out of the country.

MR VALLY: I’m not sure if I understand you. You were helped by unknown people to leave the country?

MR SITHOLE: I was not helped by either anybody but we manoeuvred as comrades to leave out of the country.

MR VALLY: You are not making sense, Mr Sithole. You say that you knew nothing about the charges, now you tell us you know what you were charged with. If you were entirely as innocent as you claim, why didn't you stand trial?

MR SITHOLE: Sir, I don't know whether I’m making sense to you.

MR VALLY: No, you are not.

MR SITHOLE: Can I explain something to you.

MR VALLY: Sure.

MR SITHOLE: I don't know whether it's making logic when you are saying to me when I’m taking a lift to Bophuthatswana and taking another lift to Botswana, there is somebody who helped me, then I must mention that those people who gave me lifts, that's what you are saying?

MR VALLY: You were facing charges, very serious charges. This matter was in all the newspapers, this matter received a lot of publicity, you say you know nothing about the matter at all, yet you choose to flee the country at this time. Can you explain to me why?

MR SITHOLE: Because to me those charges meant nothing, because as far as I know there are many people who left the country having charges on their heads, or on them, as far back as 1976.

MR VALLY: Were you ever a member of the Mandela United Football Club?

MR SITHOLE: No, I was not.

MR VALLY: Did you ever play soccer with them?

MR SITHOLE: No, that's negative.

MR VALLY: Have you ever seen them playing soccer?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, that's positive.

MR VALLY: How many times?

MR SITHOLE: I recall twice.

MR VALLY: You were on the premises on the 19th of February 1989 when you were arrested, is that correct?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

MR VALLY: Were you at school at this time?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

MR VALLY: When did your school term finish? Was it the new school term, had it begun?

MR SITHOLE: What do you mean about that, can you tell me?

MR VALLY: Well, had your new school term begun on the 19th of February 1989 already?

MR SITHOLE: By that time?

MR VALLY: That's correct.

MR SITHOLE: Yes, it was our - if I’m sure about it, it was our first term of the beginning of the school by then.

MR VALLY: Did you stay in Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house in January 1989?

MR SITHOLE: In January 1989 as I was just - as I’ve just made mention of it that I used to pay a visit ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Did you visit her in January 1989?

MR SITHOLE: Hello?

MR VALLY: Did you visit Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house in January 1989?

MR SITHOLE: I can't remember, I can't remember really whether a month before I was arrested I was there or what, I can't remember.

MR VALLY: Is it possible that you were there?

MR SITHOLE: Possibly, and possibly no, possibly yes and ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Is it possible that you were there in December 1988?

MR SITHOLE: There is that possibility and there is no possibility.

MR VALLY: Do you know Pelo Mekgwe?

MR SITHOLE: Pelo Mekgwe, yes, I know him.

MR VALLY: Did you meet him at Mrs Mandela's house?

MR SITHOLE: Yes I once met with the guy, I don't remember, but I ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Do you know Mr Kenny Gase?

MR SITHOLE: Kenny Gase, who’s that?

MR VALLY: Do you know him?

MR SITHOLE: No.

MR VALLY: Have you ever met Mr Stompie Seipei?

MR SITHOLE: No.

MR VALLY: So you met Mr Pelo Mekgwe at Mrs Mandela's house, you haven't met Mr Kenny Gase, you say, you haven't met Mr Stompie Seipei, you say. Have you ever heard of Mr Stompie Seipei?

MR SITHOLE: I’ve heard about Stompie Seipei. …[intervention]

MR VALLY: What have you heard about him?

MR SITHOLE: That he was an active teenager, and he died.

MR VALLY: How did he die?

MR SITHOLE: I’m not sure.

MR VALLY: Do you know where he was last seen?

MR SITHOLE: No, I’m not sure.

MR VALLY: You’ve never met him at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house?

MR SITHOLE: No.

MR VALLY: Do you know Mr Thabiso Mono?

MR SITHOLE: Thabiso, yes, I know Thabiso.

MR VALLY: Did you meet him at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house?

MR SITHOLE: I’m not sure, but I think himself and Pelo, himself and Pelo, yes, I think I did meet them at Mrs Mandela's house.

MR VALLY: You regularly visited Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house, both in Orlando West and Diepkloof Extension, was your cousin, Mr Sizwe Sithole - first of all, I want you to explain your relationship with Sizwe Sithole. You say he's your cousin?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, he's my cousin.

MR VALLY: Are your fathers brothers or are your mothers sisters, in which way, is he your first cousin?

MR SITHOLE: My mother and the late Sizwe's mother were sisters.

MR VALLY: Are you aware if Sizwe Sithole was a member of the Mandela United Football Club?

MR SITHOLE: To my understanding I understand Sizwe as a comrade who was staying at Winnie Mandela's place.

MR VALLY: Was Sizwe Sithole ever a member of Mandela United Football Club?

MR SITHOLE: I’m not sure of that.

MR VALLY: Yet you went to visit him regularly there.

MR SITHOLE: I can't say whether the people whom I visited at Mandela's place were members of the Mandela United Football Club.

MR VALLY: Yet you went to watch the soccer club play football.

MR SITHOLE: Yes, but I didn't see him play.

MR VALLY: So you don't know?

MR SITHOLE: Yes.

MR VALLY: Was Pelo Mekgwe a member of the Football Club?

MR SITHOLE: No, I don't think so.

MR VALLY: Was Thabiso Mono a member of the Football Club?

MR SITHOLE: No, I don't think so, in fact let me say I don't know.

MR VALLY: When you saw Pelo Mekgwe and Thabiso Mono at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house did you notice any injuries on them?

MR SITHOLE: I think it's long time and then taking into consideration my age by that time ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: You were 17.

MR SITHOLE: Yes, and I’m definitely that ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Is there anything wrong with your eyesight?

MR SITHOLE: No, there is no problem, but what I would like to tell you is that when I went to Mrs Mandela's place I was not there to check on people but I was there to check on my requirements.

MR VALLY: Well, you regularly went there weekends and other days to check on your requirements, were you ever aware of a disciplinary committee at Mrs Mandela's house?

MR SITHOLE: No.

MR VALLY: You lived in an area in Orlando West, are you aware of tension between Mrs Madikizela-Mandela and Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's Football Club and any youths in the areas where she lived?

MR SITHOLE: No, I didn't witness anything.

MR VALLY: You witnessed nothing?

MR SITHOLE: I didn't witness anything pertaining …[indistinct]

MR VALLY: You are not aware of her house being burnt down?

MR SITHOLE: I was aware that the house was burnt down.

MR VALLY: Do you know why this happened?

MR SITHOLE: I’m not sure.

MR VALLY: You lived in the same area, didn't you ask anyone?

MR MILLER: Sorry, Chairperson, Mr Sithole started off saying a few minutes ago saying that he doesn't know why he has been subpoenaed here today and, Chairperson, you indicated to him that his questioning by Mr Vally would give him an indication of why he is here. So far, Chairperson, all we have heard is a series of questions with a series of denials, which has taken the Commission, with respect, absolutely nowhere.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you able to tell him, because I thought, I mean, that the questions were actually questions that might assist, but are you able to say why you wanted him here?

MR VALLY: Did you receive our subpoena in this matter?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, I did.

MR VALLY: What did the subpoena tell you about?

MR SITHOLE: The subpoena tells me that I had to appear before the TRC concerning Winnie Mandela's hearing, public hearing.

MR VALLY: Did it specifically tell you about the abduction of Pelo Mekgwe, Kenny Gase, Thabiso Mono, and the death of Stompie Seipei?

MR SITHOLE: Ja, I think I still remember that page which state many of the names which I’m not

MR VALLY: Does Mrs Madikizela-Mandela know you?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, definitely.

MR VALLY: Well, when we questioned her, page 106, second in camera inquiry, we asked her the name

"There were a number of co-accused in the trial, I will mention the names Jabu Sithole.

MRS MANDELA: I do not know Jabu Sithole".

Mrs Mandela says she doesn't know you, what’s your reaction to that?

MR SITHOLE: My reaction to that’s that I can't answer on her behalf but what I can say is that, well, sometimes you won't remember each and everybody whom you assisted.

MR VALLY: Did you ever appear in court with Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

MR SITHOLE: I, I...[intervention]

MR VALLY: Surely, come you remember that.

MR SITHOLE: I, I, I, I, I, I don't think so, or maybe I don't remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Jabu, are you trying to play games? You mean you don't know ...(intervention)

MR SITHOLE: In fact, I don't remember well whether she did appeared with me in court because by that time I was in prison, and the time I was in prison my - in fact I was so small then the time I was in prison ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Order, please.

MR SITHOLE: ... the whole prison attitude maybe had an effect on my child, what you call, I can’t ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Did you appear in court?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see people there?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, but I can't remember whether did I appeared with Mrs Mandela or not, I can't remember that. That's what I’m trying to say.

CHAIRPERSON: Hanif, is there a court record that.....

MR VALLY: Archbishop, we’ve got the records at the office, but I don't - let me ask the last few questions. There’s a statement in Katiza's Journey that you participated in an assault on him by pouring boiling hot water on him. I put this to you, that you poured boiling hot water on Katiza Cebekhulu towards the end of January 1991, a couple of weeks before your trial was due to start, what's your reaction to that?

MR SITHOLE: By that time I believe I was in Zambia.

MR VALLY: When did you leave the country?

MR SITHOLE: I left the country in 1990.

MR VALLY: Archbishop, I just want you to warn this witness that we will consider coming back to him at another inquiry, and at such an inquiry should he persist in, we believe, refusing to answer questions of which he has knowledge, we will seriously consider charging him in terms of Section 39 of our Act. I’ve no further questions of this witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Jabu, I am instructed, advised, that you will be recalled under a Section 29 hearing, and if you persist in answering in the fashion that you have done, then we will have to invoke the powers that are vested in us. We are seeking to try and find out the truth, and generally we are doing so with no intention of having people prosecuted, but we have the powers where, if people put obstacles in our way deliberately, then they will have to take the consequences. You are aware of that? If you aren't aware of it I’m now letting you know that this is not, as some people think it is, a game. We are not playing games. We are dealing with very serious matters, and I would hope that you will consider very seriously what we are about, okay?

Mr Semenya.

MR MILLER: Sorry, Chairperson, before Mr Semenya starts I seem to recall Mr Vally saying that - asking you to warn the witness because he refused to answer questions. Archbishop, I’ve not seen the witness refuse to answer a question.

CHAIRPERSON: I mean, I think, actually let's not play games too with you, sir, okay? I don't want - I’m very patient, I’m very patient, but, when people try to make buffoons of us, I hope that they will realise that there is a limit even to my patience, and your client is playing games, and the fact that I have not intervened doesn't mean I have not in fact been annoyed.

Mr Semenya.

MR SEMENYA: Is your nickname Jarvas?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

MR SEMENYA: Mrs Mandela says that's how you were called and that's how she has known you as Jarvas, would that be correct?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

MR SEMENYA: Could you tell us why you refused to give a statement to the TRC?

MR SITHOLE: What, firstly, in fact, the manner in which the lady who is an investigative officer of Gauteng, Liela Groenewald, came to me at my work station was disliked to me. Secondly, the lady informed me of the involvement of Mrs Mandela on my brother's death, Sizwe Sithole, of which that thing really hurted me, and then I asked Liela myself, during our verbal interview, that why do you have to say that that Mrs Mandela is involved whilst Sizwe, I don't think Mrs Mandela can do something like that to him. Her response to me was, don't you know that how Sizwe died? I responded by saying, no, I’ve got no knowledge, but what I know is that Sizwe died in prison. Then she insisted to me that Mrs Mandela is involved then on Sizwe's death, and then you were staying with Mrs Mandela yourself on the date when the abduction take place of Stompie, Pelo and others, on that date she insisted that I was there and the people told her that I was there. I was surprised to whatever she was saying to me. I told her that I was not present as I’ve just told the Commission that during those times it was my school holidays and I had gone back home. Then she insisted to me to make a statement that during that day I was there and I saw Mrs Mandela assaulting the youths. Then I had to deny everything, then I told Liela Groenewald that I will make the statement should they call me in the Commission. That's how I refused to make the statement for the Commission.

MR SEMENYA: In my arithmetic around '87 you must have been about 15?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

MR SEMENYA: I’ve no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Hanif?

MR VALLY: Yes, please, Arch. I think there's a distortion here, '87 he was 15, we are talking about '89 when he was 17.

I would like to ask just one or two questions. I think the witness is really being rather incredulous. You say you met with Thabisa Mono and Mr Pelo Mekgwe at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house.

MR SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

MR VALLY: Do you know at the time you met them at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house they alleged they were kidnapped?

MR SITHOLE: I was not sure.

MR VALLY: You are aware that they have given evidence to this Commission that they were severely assaulted the night of the 29th December?

MR SITHOLE: I’m not sure.

MR VALLY: That they were carrying injuries at the time?

MR SITHOLE: At that time I’m not sure. I think I did reply your question because you did ask me the question. Then I told you that.

MR VALLY: I’m putting to you as a fact that they were carrying injuries at the time. What’s your response to that?

MR SITHOLE: I can't say anything because I only heard that from you.

MR VALLY: Have you ever worn the tracksuit of Mandela United Football Club?

MR SITHOLE: Can you repeat the question?

MR VALLY: Have you ever worn the tracksuit of the Mandela United Football Club?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, that’s positive.

MR VALLY: So you have worn it?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

MR VALLY: Give us the circumstances in which you’ve worn it.

MR SITHOLE: I believe at one stage when - we were going

for a birthday party or something like that. I don't remember where, but I believe it was a birthday party of the late Helen Joseph. That’s when I wore the tracksuit.

MR VALLY: Did Jerry Richardson give you the tracksuit?

MR SITHOLE: No.

MR VALLY: Who gave you the tracksuit?

MR SITHOLE: I took the tracksuit because there were many tracksuits lying down.

MR VALLY: So you are able to help yourself to tracksuits?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, everyone - I think everyone was able to help him- or herself with a tracksuit. Because I found the tracksuit lying down, then I had to wear it.

MR VALLY: So how often did you do this? How often did you wear this tracksuit?

MR SITHOLE: I can't remember the days.

MR VALLY: More than once?

MR SITHOLE: But it was more than once, yes.

MR VALLY: More than once you accompanied Mandela United Football Club on various journeys

MR SITHOLE: On Mandela Football journeys, yes.

MR VALLY: Can you give us some of the details of which journeys you went on?

MR SITHOLE: Like for instance the one which I’m talking about of the late Helen Joseph.

MR VALLY: Yes?

MR SITHOLE: And the other one it’s when the boys were going to play in Nootgezicht.

MR VALLY: Yes? Did you ever go and fetch some people to bring them to the house of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

MR SITHOLE: No, I don't remember that.

MR VALLY: So you only went to birthday parties and you went where else? To play soccer?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

MR VALLY: And funerals?

MR SITHOLE: I’m trying to recall the funeral that I went to with her. Oh, the funeral that I went with Mrs Mandela, it was my brother's funeral.

MR VALLY: Is that the only one? Did you go to Dr Asvat's funeral? In Lenasia.

MR SITHOLE: I can't recall that, sir.

MR VALLY: Did you go in the bus driven by John Morgan one day in February?

MR VALLY: Did you go to a funeral at the end of January or early February? Do you know where Lenasia is?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, I know that.

MR VALLY: Do you know the coaster that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela owned?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, I know it.

MR VALLY: Do you know the driver, Mr John Morgan?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, Mutu used to drive the bus.

MR VALLY: Do you remember Mr John Morgan driving you and the rest of the team in their uniforms to a funeral in Lenasia, in Lenz?

MR SITHOLE: I can't remember the journey.

MR VALLY: Is it possible it happened?

MR SITHOLE: What I can say, I can say, yes, it is possible it happened, but I can't remember it. I can't recall it.

MR VALLY: Is it true that Ms Liela Groenewald, our investigator, put to you a number of allegations?

MR SITHOLE: No, I don't remember the allegations made but I only remember the thing that was told to me by Liela Groenewald concerning my brother.

MR VALLY: Did she put to you that it is stated in Katiza's Journey certain allegations regarding your brother, Sizwe Sithole?

MR SITHOLE: No, I don't remember that.

MR VALLY: Did she then make this allegation purely in the air?

MR SITHOLE: In fact, she came to me, we were not seated, but we were in motion when she told me the whole thing.

MR VALLY: You say you were in motion. What do you mean?

MR SITHOLE: In fact, we were moving.

MR VALLY: Moving where? In a car, in a bus, in a truck?

MR SITHOLE: No, we were in motion like we are pedestrians, I can say.

MR VALLY: Mr Sithole, I put it to you that you are more involved and were more involved in Mandela United Football Club than you are claiming. That you were arrested and you were present when Mr - at least on your own admission - Mr Mekgwe and Mr Mono were held against their will at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house. What’s your reaction to that?

MR SITHOLE: My reaction is no.

MR VALLY: You just told me you saw them in Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house.

MR SITHOLE: Yes, I’ve told you that I saw them in Mrs Mandela's house.

MR VALLY: And I put it to you that they said they were held there against their will.

MR SITHOLE: I’m not sure of that.

MR VALLY: I’m telling you they said so.

MR SITHOLE: Yes, I can hear it from you.

MR VALLY: And that you were an active member of Mandela United Football Club. You went around on trips with them in the uniform. Is that true?

MR SITHOLE: I deny it because I can't even play football.

MR VALLY: No one asked you whether you can play football and no one asked whether Mandela United Football Club people play football. The point is you accompanied them on trips.

MR SITHOLE: That can happen but I was not a member.

MR VALLY: I put it to you that you are refusing to answer questions like you refused to give us a statement until today.

MR SITHOLE: Yes, because in fact I think whatever I’m saying here is the true reflection of what I know.

MR VALLY: I have no further questions.

MS SOOKA: Mr Sithole, are you aware of the fact that both Mr Thabiso Mono and Mr Gabriel Mekgwe have made statements which say that you in fact participated in the assault on them. What do you have to say about that?

MR SITHOLE: My response is no, I was not even in that yard during that day.

MS SOOKA: Why would they have a reason to lie about you and your involvement?

MR SITHOLE: I can't speak on their behalf, but what I’m thinking can be the reason, it is due because I was arrested on Stompie's case.

MS SOOKA: Yes, but they are actually saying that you beat them, both of them. So why would Stompie, the fact that you were arrested for Stompie's matter affect the fact that they would lie about you?

MR SITHOLE: As I’ve said that I can't speak on their behalf. That is my reason that maybe I’m giving to the Commission, that can be the reason for them to implicate me on their assault.

DR BORAINE: Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Sithole, can you remember, when did you return to South Africa?

MR SITHOLE: It was on the 18th February 1994.

DR BORAINE: Thank you. And I know that you answered this question, but I couldn't quite hear your answer, so forgive me if I ask you a question again. And that is, when you came back, what work did you do and what work are you doing now today?

MR SITHOLE: When I came back I was recommended by MK because I went to exile to join MK. I was recommended to National Peacekeeping Force in Cape Town. And presently I’m employed as a security officer protecting Johannesburg International Airport.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much. In your handwritten statement - this one - which you gave, I think, only today, you say that you were arrested and charged with the kidnapping of Stompie. Is that right?

MR SITHOLE: I said I was arrested and charged with the case where Stompie died. It was three charges, as I’ve just made mention. Kidnapping, assault and murder. I’m not exactly sure which of the one charge I was charged of.

DR BORAINE: I’m just reading from your statement. I’m not putting any words. I’m just saying you say

"It is true that I was arrested and charged with kidnapping of Stompie".

That’s what it says in your statement.

MR SITHOLE: In my statement that I gave to Mr Miller I told him he can just made mention what I said to him five minutes ago – it’s thirty minutes ago. I said to him I was charged with the case of Stompie, of which there were three charges there, kidnapping, assault and murder, of which even today I’m not sure which one was specifically for me.

DR BORAINE: So your statement is not entirely accurate. But let me ask you, kidnapping, you know what kidnapping means, do you?

MR SITHOLE: In broad terms. I’m not sure of it.

DR BORAINE: Would you agree with me when I say that kidnapping is a very serious offence?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

DR BORAINE: Now have you ever considered applying for amnesty?

MR SITHOLE: I didn't, sir.

DR BORAINE: You never thought about it.

MR SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much.

MR NTSEBEZA: Mr Sithole, I just want to clear up a few things for my own understanding. Now this statement, I don't know whether, is there a copy that can be available to the witness? This statement which you are using, this statement. Do you know that statement? It is the statement that you were being led on by your lawyer. Do you know that statement?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, I do.

MR NTSEBEZA: Who was it written by?

MR SITHOLE: It was written by my lawyer.

MR NTSEBEZA: In other words, this is your lawyer's handwriting.

MR SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: Did he read it back to you after you had...[intervention]

MR SITHOLE: That’s what I wanted to confirm with him after this, because I think there is a confusion as Mr Boraine has just mentioned of something. I didn't read it and that’s why I didn't have any signature on it.

MR NTSEBEZA: Now, let me ask the question again. Did the lawyer read the statement back to you?

MR SITHOLE: No.

MR NTSEBEZA: He did not. I see. Now it says you paid R500 and thereafter left the country for political reasons. Is that right?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: In other words, you skipped bail.

MR SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: And since your return have you been approached by the police with a warrant of arrest for having skipped bail?

MR SITHOLE: No, sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: Do you know if the police are aware that you have returned? Do you know if they are aware that you have returned?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: And you have not been charged again on the charges for which you had applied for bail.

MR SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: I see. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

DR BORAINE: I’m sorry, Mr Sithole, I just have two more questions. Firstly, you told my colleague Mr Ntsebeza that no one has approached you since your return to South Africa, nobody in the police, and he asked you, do they know that you are back in the country, and you said "yes". How do you know that they know?

MR SITHOLE: The reason for me to be saying so is that the job that I’m doing it confirm your availability within the country to the State and including the police, I think.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much. The last question is - and it’s a question asked by Mrs Mandela's lawyer, or I think he put it to you, and again because of these headphones I wasn't able to hear to absolutely write it down, and that is according to Mrs Mandela in her evidence at another hearing she didn't know you, Jabu Sithole, but you say that you’ve stayed there and you - many times in both houses. But I think the explanation that was being offered was that Mrs Mandela didn't know you as Jabu Sithole but she knew you by a nickname. Now I couldn't hear that, and I wonder if you wouldn't mind telling me again what is the nickname that people know you as.

MR SITHOLE: It’s Javas.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much.

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you, Chairperson, just a question I wanted to ask. When a warning statement was shown to you by Mr Vally, you quickly indicated that it does not bear your signature. Do you recall that?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: And I notice that this statement also does not bear a signature. Is that correct?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: Did you elect not to sign this particular statement? Today's statement. When you made it to that lawyer.

MR SITHOLE: I made it to the lawyer thinking that he will come back to me. Unfortunately I was called, because everything was just an express.

MR NTSEBEZA: I see. Did you ask to sign it?

MR SITHOLE: I didn't ask to sign it, but I thought Mr Miller will come back to me to make use of the statement and make me read the statement, and at the same time sign it.

MR NTSEBEZA: Now do I understand you to be saying, had he asked you to sign it you would have no problem signing it?

MR SITHOLE: Can you repeat it, sir?

MR NTSEBEZA: Are you suggesting that had Mr Miller asked you to sign your statement to the extent that it reflects what you wanted it to say, you would have had no problem signing it?

MR SITHOLE: No, I was going to have a sort of a problem.

MR NTSEBEZA: I see. What would have been your problem?

MR SITHOLE: Because I believe that whatever I want to state maybe in an official structure or in official forum like this one, I had to do it on my own so that I can express whatever it is in my heart.

MR NTSEBEZA: I see. Do I then understand you to be saying you would not have signed this statement because you had not been writing it out yourself?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: You would have adopted the same attitude towards the writing of this statement that you adopted to TRC investigators to whom you refused to give a written statement.

MR SITHOLE: If there was an insistence, yes, I was going to make sure that I personally write the statement and go through it again thoroughly and carefully before signing it.

MR NTSEBEZA: Would your reason for not signing this statement be the same reason you had when you purportedly did not sign the warning statement, namely that you didn’t make out the warning statement, which you said you refused to sign?

MR SITHOLE: Which was the warning statement?

MR NTSEBEZA: The statement that Mr Vally showed you which you made to the police in connection with the murder of Stompie.

MR SITHOLE: That statement I think it was not even read to me by those police of that time.

MR NTSEBEZA: Like this one, in the same way as you claim this one was not read to you by Mr Miller, a lawyer?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: I see. No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: I do want to say in defence of Mr Miller that we did ask him at very short notice to try and represent Mr Sithole, and therefore I would want for that to be noted as explaining, because we did say we would want to have this thing expedited, and therefore in defence of him, insofar as I can give you a defence, I would like us to note, I mean, that there is something in mitigation.

MR NTSEBEZA: Mr Chairperson, I was not impugning (indistinct).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but I just want those who might be wanting to report to know that he came to fill a breach very, very quickly and I did express our appreciation for that.

MS SOOKA: Mr Sithole, I just want to follow up on the nickname if you - right in the beginning of your evidence you mentioned that you visited a relative at Mrs Mandela's home, and that you also had a friend there. But is not true that you have a nephew?

MR SITHOLE: I visited a relative. I don't understand when you are saying I visited a relative. I visited a friend whom I was studying with.

MS SOOKA: Was Sizwe Sithole not your cousin?

MR SITHOLE: He was my cousin, but I normally didn't visit him.

MS SOOKA: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Miller?

MR MILLER: Chairperson, I just wish to state that it’s quite true that the statement’s not signed by the witness, but I can state that it’s an accurate reflection of exactly what he did state to me in consultation. It is an accurate summary of what was stated.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. You will note what I said to you. I beg your pardon. Mr Unterhalter?

MR UNTERHALTER: Mr Sithole, my name is David Unterhalter and I act for certain of the families here. Mr Sithole, if you are to be believed, you were not a member of the football club, is that correct?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

MR UNTERHALTER: And you only infrequently visited Mrs Mandela's house in the course of 1989, is that correct?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

MR UNTERHALTER: Now were you in Mrs Mandela's house on the 13th November 1988?

MR SITHOLE: I’m not sure of the dates.

MR UNTERHALTER: Did you witness in that house on that day the assault that took place on Lolo Sono?

MR SITHOLE: No, sir.

MR UNTERHALTER: Had you been in the house would you have seen had there been an assault that took place in the house?

MR SITHOLE: I’m not sure if I was in the house whether I was going to see, but if it was something that is exposed, yes, I was going to see it.

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes. Now Mr Sithole you say in your statement, and your lawyer has said now that this is precisely what you said to him today, you say the MUFC, that is the Mandela Football Club, was not used for violent purposes. Do you see that?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

MR UNTERHALTER: You state that in the affirmative, as if you have certain knowledge of that fact.

MR SITHOLE: That’s what I know.

MR UNTERHALTER: You don't say I don't know whether or not they do. You say they were not used for violent purposes.

MR SITHOLE: What I said to my lawyer is what I know. I can't say what I don't know to my lawyer.

MR UNTERHALTER: But, Mr Sithole, you actually can't know, because there has been evidence of matters, for example concerning the assaults upon Lolo Sono, which occurred on the 13th November 1988, and if you weren't in the house, you couldn't possibly know who carried out those assaults and what the consequences were.

MR SITHOLE: Yes, if you are saying to me, is it possible that the assault happened, I can say to you I can't see the impossibility of that or the possibility, because at some stages I’m not present.

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes. And therefore if persons had been abducted and were kept against their will in the house, you might also simply not know, according to your evidence.

MR SITHOLE: Yes, I don't know. That’s what I said in my

evidence.

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes. And therefore this is simply a falsehood where you say the Mandela Football Club wasn’t used for violent purposes. You can't say that, you just don't know.

MR SITHOLE: Yes, I just don't know.

MR UNTERHALTER: Exactly. So that’s false, it’s a lie.

CHAIRPERSON: Order, please.

MR SITHOLE: I don't know the logic of your objection to my statement because, according to my knowledge to the Mandela United, I’m stating my knowledge to the Mandela United Football Club, that it’s being said here of which I know the comrades. I’m saying here that those people, according to my eyesight and according to my knowledge, I didn't see any violent thing that they did in front of my eyes. That’s what I’m saying in this statement.

MR UNTERHALTER: You see, Mr Sithole, what that statement really suggests, and that’s what Mr Vally has been putting to you, is that you actually have a much more detailed knowledge and you’ve tried to make that statement to exonerate the football club.

MR SITHOLE: Sir, I think you heard that Mr Miller didn't show me the statement before it came here. I think you do understand why some of the things are being writing like this.

MR UNTERHALTER: Mr Sithole, do you know of a man by the name of Michael Siagamela?

MR SITHOLE: No, I didn't know of him.

MR UNTERHALTER: Do you know whether he worked for Mrs Mandela?

MR SITHOLE: I don't have any idea, sir.

MR UNTERHALTER: Did Mrs Mandela know the names of the members of the football club?

MR SITHOLE: I can't say, sir.

MR UNTERHALTER: You can't say it?

MR SITHOLE: Yes.

MR UNTERHALTER: She knew your name, though, and you weren't even a member.

MR SITHOLE: Yes, I know that she knew my name.

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes. Did you ever see her giving instructions to members of the football club?

MR SITHOLE: Pertaining what?

MR UNTERHALTER: In any way at all, at any time.

MR SITHOLE: What I can say, the instruction that I witnessed maybe is of sending one to the shop to buy bread and come back.

MR UNTERHALTER: I see, and were those instructions carried out?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, definitely, because she is an adult.

CHAIRPERSON: Order, please.

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes. You say that you returned from overseas in, I believe you said 1994, is that correct?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

MR UNTERHALTER: Have you seen Mrs Mandela since then?

MR SITHOLE: I used to see her during - on my workplace because I’m working at Johannesburg International Airport.

MR UNTERHALTER: Did you speak to her when you saw her?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, we greeted one another.

MR UNTERHALTER: I see. Did you get any assistance from her?

MR SITHOLE: On my return I didn't speak to her, only at a distance because I’m working …[indistinct]

MR UNTERHALTER: I see. Did she say anything to you concerning making a statement before the TRC?

MR SITHOLE: No.

MR UNTERHALTER: Or the Commission.

MR SITHOLE: No.

MR UNTERHALTER: Nothing at all?

MR SITHOLE: No.

MR UNTERHALTER: You’ve said that Mrs Mandela did give certain instructions and you’ve said for example to go and buy bread. Could anyone ever refuse an instruction from Mrs Mandela?

MR SITHOLE: I believe as Mrs Mandela, she is a grown-up woman, if maybe she is sending me to the shop, I had to acknowledge to that, as I can do it to each and everyone who is elder than me.

MR UNTERHALTER: You didn't leave the country for political reasons, you left to avoid standing trial, isn't that so?

MR SITHOLE: That’s negative, it’s not like that.

MR UNTERHALTER: What political reason did you leave the country for?

MR SITHOLE: I was active. Being a comrade we are harassed by the police by then. Then the alternative definitely was to leave the country in order not to be murdered or to be harassed.

MR UNTERHALTER: You were standing trial and you were out on bail at the time.

MR SITHOLE: Yes, that’s correct.

MR UNTERHALTER: Who was harassing you at that point?

MR SITHOLE: As I’ve stated, sir, that I was a politician, I was active in politics, organising for the African National Congress.

MR UNTERHALTER: So you were a loyal member of the movement?

MR SITHOLE: I’m the loyal tried and tested, yes.

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes. And on whose instructions did you leave the country?

MR SITHOLE: Nobody instruction I did leave the country, but I manoeuvred and I decided with some of my comrades to leave the country.

MR UNTERHALTER: Who were those comrades?

MR SITHOLE: They are comrades whom I left the country with. It was the same Brian Mabusa.

MR UNTERHALTER: And who assisted you to leave? If you were leaving for political reasons and for the purposes of the movement?

MR SITHOLE: Nobody assisted me to leave the country.

MR UNTERHALTER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Yes, Mr Joseph?

MR JOSEPH: My surname is Joseph. I represent Katiza Cebekhulu. I just want to understand your language and I want to understand your thinking. In 1988 if an MK soldier or a comrade who was operating from a safe house in Soweto killed somebody in the execution of his duties as a soldier, and the police were after that person and that person left the country, what reason would you give for the person leaving the country? In other words, would that be a political reason for leaving the country?

MR SITHOLE: In 1988?

MR JOSEPH: Yes.

MR SITHOLE: I don't know whether must I answer that question because by that time I was not an MK soldier. Can you talk on behalf of a politician, an ordinary activist of the African National Congress? Maybe I can understand it better.

MR JOSEPH: Okay. Change the description of the person who killed in the execution of his duty furthering the aims of the African National Congress in his effort to overthrow the apartheid regime. If that person killed somebody and the police were after that person, would you disagree with me if I were to say that that person left the country for political reasons? The murder is a political murder and he leaves the country for a political reason. Is that correct?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

MR JOSEPH: You would agree with me?

MR SITHOLE: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: Identify with any type of precision any type of political activity you were engaged in which would have interested the police in arresting you, other than the kidnapping of these people or the murder of Stompie, and please do me this favour, if you do not understand my question ask me now, otherwise answer the question precisely. What activity were you engaged in of a political nature other than the charges with which you were charged and in respect of which you skipped bail, which you describe as activities which gave rise to a political reason for you to leave the country.

MR SITHOLE: Yes, it’s simple to identify the activities then. Personally as I was active and remember that it was a joint(?) - the Inkatha saga whereby the Inkatha were killing people, of which I was actively involved in fighting and mobilising the youth to fight back the Inkatha people, of which on that stage I was targeted as the instigator, as the person who was more powerful to be giving ideas and making sure that the Inkatha doesn’t infiltrate our location. That’s where the police came to Inkatha rescue. That’s where I left the country.

MR JOSEPH: I asked you to give the answer with a degree of precision. What activity were you engaged in? Did you murder anybody?

MR SITHOLE: I didn't murder anybody.

MR JOSEPH: Did you assault anybody?

MR SITHOLE: I didn't assault anybody.

MR JOSEPH: Did you commit any crime?

MR SITHOLE: I didn't commit any crime.

MR JOSEPH: Then what interest would the police have in you?

MR SITHOLE: The interest that they were having, it was because of my influence that I was having to the youth to fight back the Inkatha people.

MR JOSEPH: You were encouraging young men to attack Inkatha?

MR SITHOLE: I was encouraging young men to fight back their just war.

MR JOSEPH: To engage in physical violence with Inkatha. You were engaged in that?

MR SITHOLE: I once or twice engaged myself, yes, in a physical war with Inkatha.

MR JOSEPH: And when did that take place?

MR SITHOLE: It was round 1990. It was round 1990 I can say.

MR JOSEPH: In 1990 you were engaged in that?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

MR JOSEPH: And when did you leave the country?

MR SITHOLE: I left the country 1990 - it was in November.

MR JOSEPH: And when were you engaged in this activity?

MR SITHOLE: I was engaged in those activities, I think, around January downwards.

MR JOSEPH: So look how lucky the police were. You were engaged in criminal activities that they weren't aware of. Is that right?

MR SITHOLE: No, it is wrong.

MR JOSEPH: Is it wrong?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

MR JOSEPH: And where did these activities take place? What place?

MR SITHOLE: In Soweto, sir.

MR JOSEPH: The address.

MR SITHOLE: I can't say the address because the activities were happening around Soweto. Outside the houses.

MR JOSEPH: And who did you assault? Or who was assaulted? A name.

MR SITHOLE: Nobody I did assault.

MR JOSEPH: The people you were encouraging, who did they assault?

MR SITHOLE: They fought back with Inkatha people. I don't know their names or their surnames.

MR JOSEPH: You don't know where the activity took place, is that correct?

MR SITHOLE: I’m saying I know the activities took place around Soweto. One place that I can make mention of it is Umzimhlope, Dube and other nearby hostels.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Joseph, excuse me. Thank you very much. You had said you don't have - I want to remind you that I have given you warning that you may be recalled. Thank you very much. Step down. We now call Dr Frank Chikane.

MR VALLY: Sorry, Arch, could be just have a short break. We have just got this statement and we just want to quickly read it - from the Crisis Committee. We didn't have it before. We need a 10/15 minute break.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Let's take a break until half past four.

HEARING ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Order! Thank you very much. Dear friends, we welcome you. We welcome you as people who were very prominent in the days when the struggle was hot, and we thank God that you survived to see the fruits of your labours and the labours of other people. In a way of course we wish that it was on a different kind of mission that you would be here, but you are here because we hope that you will assist us in arriving at the truth about the matters that are before us. It’ll be invidious to isolate any of you but maybe it will be a good thing just to speak of the one person who tries to make this thing your token white. Beyers, you don't know what you mean to very, very many people in this land. You have been a tremendous gift to us, and God has spared you to see the fruits of your contribution, your courage. I mean, all these people and others have been very courageous but it needed a special kind of courage for an Afrikaner, and what is so wonderful about the God we serve is the vindication that has come to you and to Ilse and to your family. And on behalf of all of us, we really just want to say thank you to God for you. And that goes also for all of you. I suspect that you are going to speak in English, but you are free to speak in any of the 11 languages. No, no, no, Sidney, I see you nodding too vehemently. Don't speak in that language today. (Laughter). We welcome you because we know that all of you have very, very tight schedules, and so without much ado I’ll ask Yasmin Sooka to administer the oath.

BEYERS NAUDE: (sworn in)

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: (sworn in)

FRANK CHIKANE: (sworn in)

AUBREY MOKOENA: (sworn in)

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Boraine will lead you until Hanif comes.

DR BORAINE: Thank you, Mr Chairman. We have received a statement. I’m not sure who is going to speak to that statement. I wonder if you would indicate that.

DR CHIKANE: Chairperson, we have agreed that because this is collective I will introduce the submission, present aspects of it, and because different aspects were dealt with by various people in the committee, some of them will have the opportunity to elaborate on some of the issues.

DR BORAINE: Thank you, Dr Chikane. Would you then start and then when you have completed your section, perhaps you would indicate to me who will follow. Thank you. Please continue.

DR CHIKANE: Chairperson of the Commission, commissioners and honourable guests, community leaders who are here, and the public, recently there have been confusing reports about what exactly this Mandela Crisis Committee is all about and who belongs to it. And we’d all sorts of names which have been listed, put together as part of the Mandela Crisis Committee, and our submission is meant to explain and put on record once and for all what this committee is all about. Similarly, the submission of this now defunct, because it is a defunct committee, should be seen in its correct perspective, that the submission of the committee is made with the sole purpose of helping the Commission in its quest to understand the activities of the Mandela Crisis Committee in respect to the matters raised by the Commission in the letter sent to us. And the third thing we would like to say, Chairperson, is that there are aspects in the letter that has been sent to some of us which we can not account for in terms of our knowledge collectively. The Commission therefore wishes to submit that it has no knowledge of the circumstances or facts surrounding the murder of Dr Abu-baker Asvat in 1989 and the abduction and imprisonment of Katiza Cebekhulu in 1991. We just want to put it on record because we don't have, you know, first-hand information we can actually provide to you in that regard. The fourth thing we’d like to say is that the committee is also in no position to discuss the activities of the Mass Democratic Movement as a collective in the matters raised above connected with the Crisis Committee. Our function was very limited and we actually stuck to that as a collective, notwithstanding the fact that our members here were individually involved in various other committees, but we thought it’s important to put that on record. The submission contained herein represents, and we’d like to emphasise that, the best possible attempt by members of the now-defunct Mandela Crisis Committee to recollect the events which are relevant to providing an understanding of the context this Commission is looking at. But before we give details of this submission, we would like just to express, and I would like to express that myself, our condolences to all the families affected in the matters which you are dealing with, and we take this sitting of the Truth Commission as of grave, we take it very seriously, and we feel it deals with people’s lives and with people’s future, with people’s experiences and families. And we’d like to treat it in that way that we give as much information as we can give the Commission in this respect.

Chairperson, I would not read the submission because it has been submitted. We just want to put the formation of the committee within context. Now firstly I got a call that Mr Mandela's house was on fire, and once I got the call I remember I was leaving that very day on a break, on holiday, and I was called and I went back and went to the house, found the house burning, and I knew the consequences of the house of a leader of that nature and the family, and for that reason I then called people who were strategically placed within the community who could assist in managing the consequences of the burning of the house so that we would not have deaths and destruction, which could follow out of it, and as the submission shows the people who then came – well, at the end of that day were Mr Aubrey Mokoena, and I want to just say, because people have been associating the committee with various other people, he’s a member of parliament now, he chairs the committees in parliament, but he was the national co-ordinator of the Release Mandela Campaign during those days, and a member of the national executive of the UDF, and Mr Sidney Mufamadi is now Minister of Safety and Security, and he was General Secretary of Cosatu, and now a member of the MEC of the ANC and a member of the Central Committee of the Politburo, and Sr Bernard during those days she was president of the Federation of the Transvaal Women’s Organisation (FETWO) and now she is a member of parliament. And Dr Beyers Naude has been former General Secretary of the SACC and former Director of the Christian Institute, and he has been a very, very valuable member of the community to make a contribution in this regard. And the sixth person who’s not present with us today, it’s Mr Cyril Ramaphosa, who happens to have a meeting that he could not get out of, but he is now Deputy Chairperson of the National African Investment Limited, Chairperson of Johnnic, and he was former Secretary General of the ANC, former chairperson of the Constitutional Assembly, and former Secretary General of the National Union of Mineworkers. Those six people are the ones who then came to be known as the Crisis Committee or the Mandela Crisis Committee. We say in the submission that we were christened thus. We never called ourselves a Mandela Crisis Committee ourselves. In fact, if you looked at the Annexure 1 of that submission, you will realise that at the end their submissions says, "released by the following community leaders involved it the crisis related to the burning of the Mandela house". And so we really never called ourselves a Mandela Crisis Committee. The media christened us, and we ended up ourselves calling ourselves thus.

Chairperson, I would like to say once we had dealt with this matter of the house, which meant talking to leaders that night, and I remember up to two o'clock in the night we were knocking at peoples' houses to make sure that no violence happens in the community. And the next thing that we did was then to look at how we restore the house to the state in which it was before because the community was angry about it, and we got involved in a process of doing that and the community assisted us in that regard. I just want to say that this Committee was purely meant for that purpose, and what made us to stay longer is because the reconstruction of the house and repairs took longer, and we had to also take care of the accounts and the security arrangements which needed to be done at that particular time.

We’d like to also submit, Chairperson, because of that that other issues arose affecting the family, and because we were close at that time in dealing with the issues involving the family, we then were drawn in various other issues like the Robert Brown controversy you’ll remember during those days and Mr Mandela’s illness - I remember that Dr Beyers Naude was the one who wrote a letter on our behalf to President Botha during that time on that particular matter, and various other matters which arose.

One of those matters has to do with this alleged kidnapping of young people from the Orlando West Methodist church. May I just say, Chairperson, that in the nature of the type of people we brought together, they were not always all together in dealing with specific aspects, and the submission does indicate that, but everybody else did so on behalf of the collective and acted in the absence of others, and the Commission will recognise that in the submission, and for that reason we are going to have a number of people then speaking on the specific issues. I just want to say that, when the alleged kidnapping and accusations about sexual abuse were made, there was a concern in the community about where the young people were, whether they were okay, et cetera. And we happened to be the people who were talked to say, can you deal with this matter? And so we dealt with it by visiting the family and the submission, it’s quite clear about the details there discussed with the family. We were allowed to meet some of those boys who were there during that time, and at that time the only person we had not seen was Stompie.

And, Chairperson, we do submit that questions were directed to the young people who were alleged to have been kidnapped, and the answers they gave us were, no, they were not kidnapped. We asked them whether in fact they were beaten or not, assaulted or not assaulted. They said, no, they were not assaulted. And you will see from our submission in paragraph 26 that, when members of the committee pressed the young people about apparent injuries which were seen from them, they denied they were actually ever assaulted and they said that they incurred those injuries, I mean they suffered those injuries by falling from trees, and that was the answer they gave at that particular moment. We asked about the whereabouts of Seipei Stompie, and whether or not Stompie was assaulted. They replied that they did not know of his whereabouts. They all told the committee that at no stage were they assaulted while they were at the Mandela residence.

After this assessment, the committee was of the view that it would be wise to persuade Mrs Mandela to let the leadership of the community to take over responsibility for the youth instead of her keeping them because of the allegations which were made. The committee also considered the Mandela Football Club as a security risk to Mrs Mandela and her family, as the committee strongly suspected that the club was infiltrated by elements of the apartheid security establishment. As a result, the committee advised that the club members be removed from Mrs Mandela's residence, and that alternative arrangements be made for her security. On the 24th January 1989, I then left the country on a mission which was involving the WCC, the World Council of Churches. On the day of my departure I raised on behalf of the committee with the Mandela lawyers to convey an urgent confidential message to Mr Mandela in prison to apprise him about that situation, as well as to ask him to intervene to resolve the crisis. Basically what we were trying to do was to get the club out there because we believed there was a problem there, and Mama believed that she’s a social worker, these children are needy, she can't get them out of the house, and we were concerned about her security and various other issues that were involved in it, and in particular we then indicated the aspects which we thought Mr Mandela could help us in. In the same way we also at the same time, around the same time, after I had left, communicated with Mr Tambo, the then president of the ANC, to assist us in dealing with this matter because it was a complicated matter as people who were there were members of Umkhonto weSizwe, some of them, and therefore we thought it would be helpful for the ANC to be involved in assisting in this regard.

Chairperson, a report was sent to Mr Tambo, and after that report a public statement was made, and all those documents are attached there, and members of the committee will speak on these matters. But on my return, which will conclude my submission now, and I will ask members of the committee to speak on this, on my return, Chairperson, on the morning of Saturday the 18th February 1989, I received a call from Mr Tambo, the then president of the African National Congress. In this call Mr Tambo expressed his concern about the continuing reports of missing children. At that time, I think, it was Cebekhulu who was still unaccounted for as far as the public was concerned, and asked me to visit Mrs Mandela and ask her to hand over Cebekhulu to myself so that we can in fact say to the public here he is, he is alive, et cetera. And Mr Tambo had talked to Mrs Mandela at that time, and so when I went in that discussion had already happened, and after a long discussion, which was made difficult because of the reports to President Tambo which was then made public by the newspaper media now those few days before I went to visit – oh, the same Sunday before I visited Mrs Mandela. It was difficult because there was a view that reports were sent in without consultations, and we had very serious discussions about it, but after those discussions we then agreed that we would then get Cebekhulu, who was then handed over to me, and I went to the press and announced that in fact he was there, and I took him to the hospital because at that time he was showing indications of ill-health which required medical attention.

And in conclusion the attention of this Commission is once more drawn to the statement made by this very committee in 1992 which we annexed as Annexure B. That statement was made because there were certain allegations about the committee, and that there was knowledge of certain issues which the committee had not declared, and we made that statement. We called again the collective, although it didn't exist as a collective of that nature, and reviewed the events of the past and wrote that statement, and that’s the closest to the events at that particular time. And the second report of course is the one that was sent to Mr O.R.Tambo. The committee also stands ready to elaborate orally on all these issues contained in our main submission, as well as the documents annexed hereto. And I’m going at this stage, Chairperson, to ask Mr Sidney Mufamadi to speak on some of the issues.

DR BORAINE: Thank you Dr Chikane. Just before Mr Mufamadi speaks, could I just inform Mr Vally that the introduction has now been made, the other members of the now-defunct Crisis Committee will speak to particular issues, after which I will have great pleasure in handing over to you to do the questioning.

MR MUFAMADI: Mr Chairman and the Commission, as Rev Chikane pointed out, I’m going to speak briefly to the documents that are attached to the main body of our submission. We have attached to our submission a number of documents. In all, there are five: Annexure A, B, C, D and E. I will not necessarily speak to all the annexed documents, but perhaps even before I speak to the documents that are annexed hereto, I must point out that if you look at the submission as a whole and you look at the annexed documents, especially those that were authored by this collective, you will notice that a common feature of these documents is that members of the Mandela Crisis Committee did not at any stage purport to have been material witnesses, either as individuals or as a collective to any crime that was allegedly committed. I think it’s important to point this out. But we are of the view that, in the course of the work which we were doing as this collective, we gained some insights into the matters before this Commission today, insights which might be helpful in pointing the Commission in the direction which is likely to help the Commission discover the truth. If for instance you look at annexure B, that is a press statement which we felt obliged to release on the 18th April 1996. Although as a collective we were no longer meeting at that time to attend to these matters that are before the Commission today. As I said, we were prompted to take this step by allegations and insinuations which appeared in the mass media, which we believe came from certain - at least a certain political party in the country. Allegations to the effect that we as a collective were covering up the truth about what happened to Dr Asvat. So I just thought that it’s important for us to explain why we have this statement. I may come back to it later. That’s Annexure B. Annexure C, that is a report which was sent by members of this committee to the late president of the African National Congress, Mr Oliver Tambo, who at the time was in exile, and it outlines these insights that I referred to earlier as we gained them. Annexure E is a statement which was issued by the leadership of the African National Congress from Lusaka after they had received the report which appears here as Annexure C. Rev Chikane has already said that, as a result of the insights that we gained, we formed an impression that there were serious problems with the Mandela United Football Club. And I think if you look at the main body of our submission, and you look at the report which we sent to Mr Oliver Tambo, you will indeed see that that was our impression. I think on page 19 of our main submission, not page, paragraph 19 rather. Paragraph 19 of our main submission, we say - I will read that

"The committee insisted on removing what it considered a bush, that is the Mandela Football Club, around the Mandela family within which agents of the apartheid system were possibly operating".

If you look again at Annexure C which is then our report to Mr Oliver Tambo, page 2 of that document. Or let me start with the last sentence of page 1. This is how we reported to Mr Tambo:

"When we interviewed Katiza Cebekhulu, he came across as a person who understood no language other than Zulu. (There must be a full stop there.) Somewhere along the way we gained an impression that he is a maverick. This prompted us to concentrate on additional issues. We broke him. (Not in the physical sense.) Consequently we established the following from him

1. That both Gabriel (that’s Gabriel Mekgwe) and Thabiso (Thabiso Mono) were heavily assaulted. Stompie and Kenny were also assaulted.

That he, Katiza, was instructed to contribute in assaulting the four, the four namely Katiza, Gabriel, Stompie and Kenny. He was himself not assaulted.

He believed that Kenny had escaped, but he suspected that Stompie was dead.

He, Katiza, before running away from Hammarsdale

(Hammarsdale is in what today is known as the KwaZulu-Natal Province) He, Katiza, before running away from Hammarsdale, was working with the C.R.Swart’s Security Branch. (That’s what we got from him.) He maintains that he did this because of poverty. He was, according to him, rejected by both the UDF and the Inkatha. He reckons both organisations were after him, and he therefore decided to leave the area, namely Hammarsdale."

"It is a matter of public record that sometimes this year the African National Congress and the Inkatha Freedom Party made public statements, that is the provisional structures of these two organisations in KwaZulu-Natal, they made public statements which one can say confirm what appears there as Point 4. Or at least they have got the same impression that Katiza had of himself as he told us."

There I was dealing with annexure C. Coming to annexure E - or before I come to Annexure - if you look at Annexure C -

I’m looking for the relevant paragraph. I’m trying to - . Oh, then Franky said the paragraph immediately after what I read about Katiza. I’m just reading it as it appears in this document.

"Winnie later told us that she has sent both Katiza and Xoliswa to Lusaka. (Katiza Cebekhuku and Xoliswa Falati to Lusaka.) This is what prompted us to take this step of communicating with you hopefully whilst the two are still in Lusaka, because we thought that it was necessary for him to be armed with this insight that we had gained ourselves. We had not gone public for instance about what Katiza told us about himself, but we thought that it would be necessary for the leadership of the ANC to ask him a few questions about that. When we spoke to Katiza, he implicated Xoliswa Falati in the alleged kidnapping of the children from the Methodist church. And indeed later, when the children had come out of the Mandela residence, they implicated Xoliswa as well at the meeting which was referred to earlier by Bishop Storey, which took place in Dobsonville. So indeed we thought that, quite apart from whatever it was that they were sent to say in Lusaka, it would have been necessary for the leadership of the ANC to know about these other allegations that were being made about the individuals concerned.

Coming to Annexure E that, as I said earlier, was a statement issued by the leadership of the ANC from Lusaka.

DR BORAINE: Mr Mufamadi, I’m sorry to interrupt you, is there a date on which this was issued?

MR MUFAMADI: It is not reflected there. I guess you will appreciate the conditions in which people in exile operated. Well, it’s not reflected there. Anyway, this was the statement.

DR CHIKANE: [Intervention] But the statement was made public during that time.

MR MUFAMADI: It was made public during that time. I will just quote some of the – I mean, ja, well, it was reprinted in Sechaba, which was the official organ of the African National Congress in April 1989. Well, at least in Sechaba you can see the date as well. 1989, it was released - printed on February 18th 1989.

I will read some of the sentences which I think may be of relevance to the point I was making earlier. But it’s so short that you might want me to read the whole of it. [Intervention] The statement reads thus:

"Recently there have been serious developments pertaining to the activities of the group known as the Mandela Football Club, which have raised great concern within the mass democratic movement and struggling people as a whole. The ANC shares the concern of the people, and has all the time tried to intervene to find an amicable solution to the problem. In the light of reports about its activities in the recent past, our organisation, complementing the initiatives of leading personalities of the mass democratic movement, tried to use its influence to bring about the disbanding of the group."

The group being the Mandela United Football Club.

"Unfortunately our counsel was not heeded by Comrade Winnie Mandela. The situation has been further complicated by the fact that she didn’t belong to any structures and therefore did not benefit from the discipline, counselling, and collectivity of the mass democratic movement. Under these circumstances she was left open and vulnerable to committing mistakes, which the enemy exploited. One such instance relates to the so-called Mandela Football Club. In the course of time the club engaged in unbecoming activities, which have angered the community. We fully understand the anger of the people and their organisations towards this club. We have every reason to believe that the club was infiltrated by the enemy, and that most of its activities were guided by the hand of the enemy for the purposes of causing disunity within the community and discrediting the name of Nelson Mandela and the organisation of which he is the leader. Our people should not allow this. The ANC calls on our people to close ranks and exercise maximum vigilance against the vile machinations of the enemy. Our position is that the problem arising from the activities of the Mandela Football Club can and must be resolved within the ambit of the democratic movement as a whole, both at local and national levels. This must be done in the shortest possible time. To realise this, it is necessary that Comrade Winnie Mandela is helped to find her way into the structures and discipline of the mass democratic movement. It will be of paramount importance that she co-operates with all those involved in the resolution of the problem. We are confident that the mass democratic movement will open its doors to her in the interests of our people and the struggle. There is a need to create a climate in which all problems facing the community, including the unfortunate death of Stompie Moeketsi Seipei, a committed young lion who has made an immense contribution in the mobilisation of our youth and people in the struggle, will be discussed to foster unity rather than let the enemy use them to achieve its ends. The ANC takes this opportunity to convey its heartfelt condolences to the parents, relatives and community of Stompie Moeketsi Seipei. It is with a feeling of terrible sadness that we consider it necessary to express our reservations about Winnie Mandela's judgment in relation to the Mandela Football Club, but we should not forget what Comrade Winnie Mandela has gone through and her immense contribution to the liberation struggle. She has not only suffered the anguish of over a quarter of a century of separation from her husband, but has also experienced unending persecution at the hands of the regime such as banishment, imprisonment, torture, and sustained harassment over a period of more than two decades, bearing the name of Mandela, and in her own right she increasingly became one of the symbols of resistance to racist tyranny both at home and abroad. We firmly believe, without prejudging all the issues which have been raised in relation to the problem, that whatever mistakes were made should be viewed against the background of her overall contribution on the one hand and the activities of the enemy on the other". Viewed in this light, we consider it important that the movement .....

(tape ends)

 ...will continue to work for the unity of our people and we have no doubt that all those who have participated in attempting to solve this problem have done so in the best interests of our struggle."

Now, as I said earlier, we sent a report to Mr Tambo, we received a response through the same channels that we used in sending the report. Subsequently, this statement was issued by the leadership of the ANC.

"One thing that became clear to us was that the ANC leadership in Lusaka was of the same view that there was a causal link between the unbecoming conduct of some of the members of the Mandela United Football Club and the machinations then of the enemy. It was precisely because we had this impression that we tried what we considered to have been our level best to persuade Mrs Mandela to allow us to help her disband the Mandela United Football Club, because, as this collective, we can’t claim to have succeeded to persuade her to co-operate with us in that regard, and I must say that we regretted what we considered to be her apparent inability to see things from our perspective. We believed that the football club was damaging to her personal integrity in terms of what people understood its members to have been involved in, and to the extent that there was a perception that she was part of the Mass Democratic Movement. Indeed we thought that the fact of the continued existence of the Football Club impacted negatively on the fortunes of the Mass Democratic Movement.

The statement by the leadership of the ANC, as we saw, it was appealing to members of the Mass Democratic Movement not to give up the attempt to solve the problems amicably. We understood also that they were addressing an appeal to us as this collective not to give up that task. Because if you look at our report to Mr Oliver Tambo, we were actually posing the question whether any useful purpose would be served by the continued existence of this collective and the work that we were trying to continue to do.

We also interpreted this statement as addressing an appeal also to Mrs Mandela that she should co-operate with efforts that we were making, co-operate with efforts which the leadership of the ANC was imploring the rest of the Mass Democratic Movement to make.

Mr Chairman, I should not take your interrogation time. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON:: We are not coming to interrogate. Do we have any further inputs?

CRISIS COMMITTEE: There are two things that I would like to add Chairperson. Just to put it on record because at the beginning we say that we are not able to deal with specific issues that are related to the murder of Dr Abu-Baker Asvat and if I can take you to paragraph 33 of the submission, the background to that paragraph is that during the time when we were talking to those young people in that Diepkloof residence we were told that Dr Asvat had treated and that the sexual abuse story he would be able to actually assist on the sexual abuse story and so in Paragraph 33 you see on the 14th January 1989, three members of the Committee Aubrey Mokoena, Sidney Mufamadi, and Sister Bernadette Ncube visited Dr Asvat, that was the encounter that this Committee has with Dr Asvat in Robville Surgery on behalf of the Committee, I wasn’t in the country, Dr Beyers Naude wasn’t in the country and Cyril Ramaphosa wasn’t available.

The task of these members was to ask Dr Asvat as to whether or not he had treated the youth and whether or not he could share with the Committee what his findings were because that was important for us and that story is related in Annexure B in a much more detailed form in terms of what was required and extracted and the members of the Committee who went there report that Dr Asvat denied every having seen or medically examined the youth and that is stated in Annexure B.

Annexure B was written around this particular question because it was felt that because the members of the Committee were the ones who visited Dr Asvat before his death and talked to him about these young people, that the Committee would have information, Dr Asvat would have communicated to them and you will realise that in Annexure B where reference is made to the report which was sent to the President of the ANC at that particular time.

Now if you can take that Annexure C which was quite confidential which made Mama Mandela quite angry about, in terms of how it was actually sent to President Mambo. But Annexure B refers to that report and says that "If indeed we have extra information that was very confidential" because this was a very confidential document sent by a Courier. A human being had to go there and deliver it and came back and confirmed it’s delivered and if there was any extra information we could have given that would have been the best opportunity.

Unfortunately the answer that we got at that time was "No, I did not treat them" and that created a crisis for us. We are not able to comment why that issue was treated in that way. I need to add, Chairperson, that I personally had a very close personal relationship with Dr Asvat and I got the call, I was in Japan at that time, and got a call that he has been killed and he came to rescue me when I was supposed to leave school, the University, because my parents were not working, and I assisted the family for two years. Basically giving grants to the family and treated the family free of charge, so he was my personal doctor particularly, and this has been a pain to us, but we, unfortunately that’s as far as we could go.

There was other interaction which happens beyond that I know of. Of course when I came back from outside the country, he was already dead, so I had no opportunity to can do that.

The next thing Chairperson, is Paragraph 34. Just to put the context of all these reports which Mr Mufamadi has been referring to, that there was a meeting at Dobsonville, which was called and members, and I am sorry that Bishop Storey there has made a real story, rather than with an ease of, there is a typographical error there and we apologise for that.

In that meeting Sr. Bennett and Mr Sidney Mufamadi attended that meeting where they were invited, they invited members the Crisis Committee and it’s in that meeting where very hard things were said, so that reports which tends to be misunderstood in terms of what was that which the Committee believed was true and what is that which was reported as what the community was saying, which I think it is important to read it carefully in that sense that it reported quite some anger from that meeting, angry things were said and there were recommendations of what the community must do and what the African National Congress was saying is that you must not fall into that trap because of this infiltration you are actually then achieving the very objective, so instead of isolating Mrs Mandela, close in on her and deal with the problem and that is the context within which that counts and that is as close as we could come in a broader meeting with the Mass Democratic Movement, because it was community organisations present there.

I would like to turn your attention again to Paragraph 14, Chairperson, which has been referred to and would like to refer to some of the issues we believed after the burning of the house, are well involved here.

Paragraph 14 on Page 4. "Although the events leading to the burning of the house was sad to be related to conflict between members of the so-called Mandela Football Club and some members of the community, the Committee intuitively felt that there was a third force involved in this conflict. The Committee suspected that the objectives of this third force were firstly to create conflict within the community and thereby shift the focus of the people’s energies away from the struggle for liberation."

And the second objective of the third force so the Committee suspected was to discredit not only Mrs Mandela but also the ban?? Imprison Mr Mandela and the African National Congress and the total affect of this strategy would be to weaken the Liberation Movement and finally defeat the forces of liberation. That is how we conceptualise it, you would see this struggle in trying to deal with this plan and at one stage when I visited the house during the night because there was an emergency, I myself, didn’t feel safe leaving the house after that, because I didn’t know who in amongst those boys were actually serving the regime at that particular time, and that I think is important to understand, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON:: Hanif?

MR VALLY:: Thank you Arch.

I first want to put a statement made by Mrs Madikizela Mandela to us at her second Section 29 Inquiry, page 103.

The Mandela Crisis Committee -

"Did they visit your house in connection with the abduction or removal of the boys, or shall we say the abduction of the boys from Methodist Manse?"

Mrs Madikizela Mandela responded -

"I indicated that some Church leaders came to the house, a Crisis Committee has never had communication with us. I heard the idea of the so-called Crisis Committee from the Media and from these documents that were flying about, but some members of . . . (indistinct) from the Churches came to see me.

I asked them -

"Did the senior police ever ask and were given access to any of the boys who were taken from the Manse?"

Mrs Madikizela Mandela

"No. I had no such discussion with them. The people who did come to my house came to express their deepest sympathy about what was going on in the Media and what was all over in the papers. At that stage the boys were already taken away to the Church."

I went on -

"Did no Church leaders or any other persons come and see you about the boys whilst they were on your premises"?

Mrs Madikizela Mandela - "No. Not to my recollection, I have just stated that if I remember well, a person like Rev. Frank Chikane would have come home during these days but not to secure the release of the boys."

And I asked again -

"Did he raise the issue of the boys?"

Se went on.

"They came home during those days and the actual discussions which took place were generally about what was happening at the time."

She went on -

"Not to have the boys released because they had already left to my recollection."

So, I won’t go much further, but she has denied that the Mandela Crisis Committee has come to see her about the release of the boys. Could I have a response to that please?

CRISIS COMMITTEE: Do we have a privilege to gain access to the records of those proceedings?

MR VALLY: You do.

MR CHIKANE: Chairperson, I wish to gain access to those proceedings but our submission stands as it stands and that the record of what we were doing at that particular moment. I must say that there is a reference to Frank Chikane there, I don’t remember which paragraph you were looking at, I remember

"a person like Rev. Frank Chikane could have come over in those days but not to secure the release of the boys."

Now obviously during those days I played quite and I had too many hats to put on and one was as a friend to the family, one was as a Pastor and one was on as Community Leader, so there was quite a complex combination of issues, and there are issues that I dealt with at a Pastoral level which I think belongs here and issues that are related to these particular boys which we had to deal with and so I would rest my case that the submissions . . . (indistinct).

CHAIRPERSON:: I am sorry, I want to understand, I mean I hear you Frank about privilege, what you are saying in response is you as a Committee and maybe you individually did go and see Mrs Madikizela Mandela about the release of these youths.

MR CHIKANE:: Chairperson, our submission indicates that the said visit was related to community concerns, the . . . (indistinct) community, I am looking for the paragraph, that the . . . (indistinct) community where Stompie came from has raised these questions and it is paragraph 24, "Because of concerns from the community of the whereabouts of these young people, the committee was drawn in to help resolve this matter. Amongst the people who spoke to members of the committee about this problem were leaders in the Methodist Church and comrades from Thomahole, Parys and on the 13th January 1989, the committee visited Mrs Mandela’s residence to assess the situation and determine the whereabouts.

Now it is very possible that there were too many . . . actions to remember everything that happened in those days, we have go to go through files and documents and etc. even this morning we are still working out what could have happened here and there but the situation is as it stands and Annexure C also deals with that matter. On Page 1, Annexure C, and then there is also Annexure D . . . (indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON:: Let’s go on.

MR VALLY: At all times when you went to go and see Mrs Madikizela-Mandela who was making decisions in that household regarding the issues raised about these youngsters, about the persons who were taken away, who was making the decision?

MR CHIKANE: I don’t think I will be able to answer that question, I think the only thing we can say is that during that visit that we made, the first visit I made, and after that I left to go on this trip. We had discussions with the family first and then we were, and then these boys were allowed to come and sit with us in the absence of the family to talk to us and that is where they made the submissions that they were not assaulted, they were not forcefully removed and that their injuries were as a result from trees. That is what was said at the time so I wouldn’t be able to say who was deciding what to do in that regard.

MR VALLY:: We will come back to this in a short while.

CRISIS COMMITTEE: I just wanted to find out whether we should understand from Frank Chikane, that it is not possible to say when we went there and they held a discussion, he could not formally, in their own minds, who was in authority there with whom they could have a discussion about the issues that they were coming to discuss there, do I understand that was the position?

MR CHIKANE: You go into somebody’s house it wasn’t a public place and the person who was in charge there, it’s Mrs Mandela and that is why we had to talk to her.

MR NTSEBEZA:: You have given me a reply, Mr Chikane, I think that is what the question I wanted.

MR VALLY:: Thank you Mr Ntsebeza.

MR CHIKANE: As a family there is a leader in the family and you talk to the leader of the family before you do anything in the house, you know you couldn’t go in there and do whatever you like.

MR VALLY:: Before I go into specifics, I just want to ask you a general question. What was the attitude of Mrs Winnie Madikizela Mandela to you people when you raised various queries with her, just her general attitude her demeanour towards you?

MR CHIKANE: Well, I suppose it depended on what issue we were raising at any given time, if you look at Annexure C, of our submission, we talk there about having approached her and we put to her the allegations which were made about the children, namely that they were removed from the Methodist Church against their will and that they were assaulted.

She promised at the time to give us access to the children which she later did and we saw the children, but you will see that in the same Annexure we talk about a meeting which was held in Dobsonville by various organs that were affiliated to the UDF then.

Page 3 of that Annexure tells you about the resolutions which were adopted at that meeting - 1 to 5. I want . . . (indistinct) read them and when those resolutions were conveyed to her and I will read this part.

"When Winnie was informed about the decisions of the meeting, her immediate response was to demand a list of all the people who were at the meeting, she seems to think that she is above the community, that was our opinion. She shows utter contempt for both the Crisis Committee and the Community. She had started accusing the Crisis Committee of all sorts of petty things like

(1) that the Crisis Committee is conniving with the Community. The reason for that accusation when the Community organisations invited us to attend the meeting, we obliged.

(2) The Crisis Committee communicates with Madiba and/or behind her back.

(3) The Crisis Committee is assisting the police by investigating this abduction allegation.

(4) The SACC and the Christian Institute which we thought was an apparent reference to Frank, Rev Frank Chikane and Dr Naude are wolves in sheep skins."

Now I am saying it depended on what issue we were raising at any given time as to what would be her attitude towards the Crisis Committee. I hope that answers your question.

MR VALLY:: Thanks, it does. This document was put to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, Page 66, second Section 29 Inquiry, the one you have just read, Annexure C. I ask the question

"You are aware of the report sent by what was called the Mandela Crisis Committee to the then President of the ANC, Oliver Tambo where they referred to the retractions?"

the retractions I was referring to was the retractions by Thabiso Mono, Pelo Mekgwe where they retracted their allegations of sexual abuse at a public meeting to where they went on 6th January. So I ask this question -

"You are aware of reports sent by what was called the Mandela Crisis Committee to the then President of the ANC, Oliver Tambo, where they refer to these retractions?"

Mrs Madikizela Mandela responded:

"With deep regret that document is not owned even by the present ex-members of the Crisis Committee, I spoke to the present Minister of Safety and Security, Sidney Mufamadi, I spoke to Aubrey Mokoena who is the Deputy Speaker of the House to try and establish the authenticity of the so-called document from the Crisis Committee. Both of them had no knowledge of what-so-ever of your fictitious document which is so obviously . . . (indistinct) which is what they used to do and admit it publicly. You have questioned me on a document which was not even drawn by the Crisis Committee even during those apartheid times, you are free to access that information directly from them, they know nothing about that document and Sidney Mufamadi even went so far as to say to me "Did I not recollect that by the time they were supposed to have issued that so-called document the Crisis Committee had already ceased to exist. It had been dissolved".

What is your response to that?

Sorry, my colleague has just given you the full transcripts, there is a first Section 29 and a second Section 29, has it been divided for you? The blue page is the division. I was referring to Page 66 of the second section 29 document.

MR MOKOENA: For my part the reference to the document was that of the MDM, that is the one that I was actually referring to that the Crisis Committee had absolved it, and I seem to agree with it. I didn’t understand that it was this particular document, so it is quite possible that when I spoke to Mama she had one . . . (indistinct) in mind but then I had another one in mind which was, this was the meeting in Dobsonville. That is the one that I was referring to.

We don’t own it as the Mandela Crisis Committee because we did not engineer that meeting.

MR VALLY:: You do confirm that a document was drafted by the Mandela Crisis Committee and is not a Stratcom document?

MR CHIKANE: Well, we do confirm that the document was written by us, if I understood you well when you read the extract from the previous hearing, Mrs Mandela says it was obviously from Stratcom. It would be interesting to hear what is obviously Stratcom about this document but we are saying it was written by us.

MR VALLY:: Let us talk about what Mrs Madikizela-Mandela tells us about the origin of the Mandela Crisis Committee, I refer you to the first Section 29 Inquiry. You see that file we have given you, the blue page in-between divides the two Inquiries. I am now dealing with the first one.

I want to refer you to Page 89. Have you found the page? Maybe I must just go back as far as 88 to the lead up to that. I asked the question -

"Were you aware of any tension between Mandela United Football Club and other schools in the area or other football...."

CHAIRPERSON:: Excuse me, I am sorry to interrupt you, it does seem to be that there is, or seems to us here, who is collective here that that collective is having a problem because they are just having sight of the transcript and I think that these are critical issues and we don’t want to be dealing with this officially, that you be given the opportunity of an overnight scrutiny of this and that we will continue tomorrow.

I hope that we are going to finish tonight with this particular group but I mean it is . . .

CRISIS COMMITTEE: Chairperson, I think maybe what is intimidating is being given a book to study here, but I think questions can be asked and we can answer the questions, we don’t need to study the book itself.

CHAIRPERSON:: I don’t want to put you at any disadvantage, don’t make your decision precipitately because you don’t want to come tomorrow.

CRISIS COMMITTEE: Chairperson, that is true.

CHAIRPERSON:: Unfortunately you have come to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission here, look, let’s find out, I mean I don’t know, Hanif, how do you feel, we are concerned because you see they keep struggling and I just think it isn’t fair. This is quite crucial to what we are doing and I, myself would say and my colleagues here would say that unfortunately, I mean, we would have wanted, yes, Minister Sidney,

MINISTER MUFAMADI: We suggest that we proceed and if we feel that we are really encountering difficulties we will indicate.

CHAIRPERSON:: Then we want to try and conclude this matter this evening. Let us say as we had thought half past six, but I mean we are being too ambitious and say seven o’ clock. Well, let us see what happens because you see Dr. Frank Chikane, there is no guarantee that we will finish even if we go on because there are other people there who have an interest in the matter apart from Mr Semenya and I am quite clear in my mind, I do not want us to rush this thing and I am afraid I would not give you permission to stand down, I didn’t want to use that particular power but I am trying to be persuasive, do you want us to go on as you are suggesting, let us go on and let us see what happens. Right you are.

MR VALLY:: We gave you a second copy, I don’t know what has happened to it now.

Alright, we are on page 88 of the first Section 29 Enquiry. If you look at a third of the way down the page, I start off with a question -

"Were you aware of any tension between Mandela United Football Club and other schools in the area or other Football Clubs?"

- 88, first Inquiry.

CHAIRPERSON:: Order please.

MR VALLY:: Mrs Madikizela Mandela answers

"I know nothing about that Mr Chairman, I heard these things in the media"

- 88, First Transcript,

Could we take a very short break Archbishop and I want to just arrange a couple of copies so that everyone has a copy.

CHAIRPERSON:: I think we should, let’s go, I mean they have got. That is enough.

CRISIS COMMITTEE: : It’s the second hearing.

CRISIS COMMITTEE:: I am told it’s the first.

CRISIS COMMITTEE:: In my copy it is the one after the blue division.

CHAIRPERSON:: There is, I am glad to be affirmed that there is wisdom in adjourning and we’ve have very long days, I mean we have been having very long days. I, Roger, don’t make rude signs in the, I, order please.

We adjourn until half past eight tomorrow.

MR RICHARD: Mr Chairperson, may I just say we are missing page....

CRISIS COMMITTEE: I think Mr Tony you come to us, don’t go to the Archbishop.

HEARING ADJOURNS