Amnesty Hearings

CHAIRPERSON: According to Mr Crause, the first witness, Gen Steyn phoned him and asked him to investigate what the explosion at this hospital was all about, am I correct?

MR VISSER: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steyn, in terms of the evidence thusfar, unless he's going to come and tell us differently, would not have known about that plan.

MR VISSER: No, he knew about it, he was informed. But you'll hear from him, Chairperson, that he's very vague on who informed him, but he was informed.

J A STEYN: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Mr Steyn, you've already incorporated Exhibit A and B in your application and you confirm the contents of your application.

MR STEYN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: In this case Mr Steyn, can you recall it well?

MR STEYN: With the drawing up of my amnesty application I couldn't recall everything, but I do know now what happened.

MR VISSER: Can you tell us what do you think, on what date did this incident take place? ...(transcriber's interpretation)

MR STEYN: I think it was in '85, in the eleventh month.

MR VISSER: Not in '86?

MR STEYN: No.

MR VISSER: Why do you say this?

MR STEYN: Mr Chairperson, I was already then transferred to Durban and this incident happened when I was still here.

MR VISSER: When were you transferred to Durban?

MR STEYN: I was transferred to Durban in May 1986.

MR VISSER: What do you know about this incident?

MR STEYN: Mr Chairperson, I was approached by Col Crause who informed me that he received a request to assist the Special Forces of the Defence Force in the monitoring of a vehicle that would be sent or was already in Botswana.

MR VISSER: You then gave instructions that the monitoring had to continue.

MR STEYN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: You heard his evidence today that the Security Branch of Northern Transvaal also asked for a house from which they could do this monitoring.

MR STEYN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And you also approved this?

MR STEYN: Yes.

MR VISSER: Were you, or did you know of the activities of Johannes Mnisi?

MR STEYN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Did you consider him as a target of the Security Forces?

MR STEYN: That is correct, he was a member of the Special Forces of the ANC.

MR VISSER: Do you know anything about any activities in which he was involved?

MR STEYN: He was, amongst others, involved in the Church Street bombing in Pretoria.

MR VISSER: And he also applied for amnesty for that incident, amongst others.

MR STEYN: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: At a later stage did you hear anything concerning this monitoring and what was going on?

MR STEYN: Periodically I was informed that the contact of the members that did the monitoring, Smit and Crause, that they stopped this monitoring but continued on a periodic basis, but it did seem that they lost contact with this vehicle.

MR VISSER: You know that the action was aimed at killing Mr Mnisi and/or other people in that vehicle? ...(transcriber's interpretation)

MR STEYN: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: You associated yourself with this?

MR STEYN: Yes.

MR VISSER: For the reasons that you just mentioned?

MR STEYN: Yes.

MR VISSER: Do you know what the end of this, or the result of this incident was?

MR STEYN: On the news, Chairperson, I heard that there was a vehicle in Mochudi that exploded close to a hospital or at the hospital and we had to report back in terms of our responsibility to Head Office, that's why I wanted to find out from Crause and Smit what was the circumstances surrounding this explosion.

MR VISSER: And as they testified you then contacted them and gave them the information and the instruction.

MR STEYN: Yes.

MR VISSER: You say in your application that if people were injured or killed, that they were unknown, what is your opinion today?

MR STEYN: Yes, I am of the opinion that people were killed and injured in that explosion. I saw a newspaper from Botswana in which they also referred to damage to the hospital building itself.

MR VISSER: Was reference made to people?

MR STEYN: Yes, they referred to people who were killed and injured.

MR VISSER: Is there anything else that you can recall and that you can add to clarify this incident?

MR STEYN: No, Mr Chairperson, I think that is all.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman, that's the evidence from Mr Steyn.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MR VISSER: We have no further witness, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: The application is in respect of conspiracy to murder and damage to property?

MR VISSER: Yes, damage to property, it's both the motorcar as well as, on this evidence there may have been damage to property in Botswana as well. If it's the same bomb, but it appears ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think we can go that far because there must be some link between the bomb that caused the damage to the hospital and the bomb planted. We're not really sure. It is possible, I'm not saying no.

MR VISSER: Yes, that is why I thought it was important to try and establish a date, Chairperson, and we've not been able to be successful because ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: That was my next question. I have to consider this with my Panel and if we're restricting to a conspiracy, then there's no problem about the date, but if you are going to insist on a particular finding as to murder, the date would have been important and - I think we're more confused. The vehicle belonged to the State?

MR VISSER: Yes.

MR MALAN: It may be a vehicle that they have stolen from some private individual.

MR VISSER: My attorney asks me to offer to you if you were interested in some reading matter and you don't have enough to read at this stage, he can present you with Mr Mnisi's amnesty applications as well, Chairperson. For what it's worth.

CHAIRPERSON: That is an early morning joke.

Yes we'll reserve the decision in this.