MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman before we continue, Mrs Cambanis asked me to just extend her apology. During the adjournment she was called to the airport to pick up victims. However whatever is going to be said will be recorded and passed to her. So she is not at a disadvantage.
MR PRINSLOO: Chairperson and the next applicant is number 10 Petrus Paulus Steyn. That is the person in the witness stand. Thank you Chairperson. The application appears on page 172 to 186 and also on page 214 to 223. Thank you Chairperson.
PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Chairperson.
Mr Steyn you were arrested and prosecuted in the High Court together with the other applicants with regards to the pipe bomb explosions, that is in Bloed Street Western area and Randfontein. And you were found guilty on these charges and sentenced to 21 years imprisonment because of murder, attempted murder and deliberate damage of property and the possession of explosives. Do you confirm that?
MR STEYN: That is correct Chairperson, except that I wasn't arrested, I gave myself up.
MR PRINSLOO: Let me just get this right, you gave yourself in?
MR STEYN: That is correct. I gave myself up to the police.
MR PRINSLOO: Mr Steyn now you are applying for amnesty for these offences which I have just talked about?
MR STEYN: That is correct Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: Mr Steyn when you moved up to Ventersdorp, it is on page 182, it is actually page 181 and it carries on to page 182 it is paragraph 9. Did you take your family with you or not?
MR STEYN: Not at the beginning Chairperson. I left on my own to Ventersdorp and afterwards I arrived at head office. I first wanted to go and summarise the whole situation and discuss it because I did not receive the call-up instruction very clearly.
When I arrived at Ventersdorp Brigadier Leon van der Merwe and Major Johan Smit I found them there at head office. I explained to them what my situation was and told them that I would like to see my commander Abe Fourie and there they told me that it is impossible, I cannot go and see him because they are on a farm outside of Ventersdorp and if I join them I would not be able to leave that farm again.
MR PRINSLOO: Why would you not be able to leave again Mr Steyn?
MR STEYN: Because apparently the place they were at they told me that a few people was to know about that place. It was quite a secretive place and the women and children and a certain group of people I do not know who exactly was gathered there but that is what they told me and that I cannot go there, and if I wanted to go there at that stage I would have to stay there. I would not be able to leave that place. I assumed after a while that this was the farm of, what's his name, the accused who refuses to appear in front of the Committee.
MR PRINSLOO: Mr Barnard?
MR STEYN: That is correct, it was on his farm.
MR PRINSLOO: And your wife and children what happened to them?
MR STEYN: They told me that they recommend me to go and fetch them and my wife at that stage, my children were too small, told me that she was not happy with the situation because you can't just leave everything behind without any clarity and just move up somewhere. And there they persuaded me that I must go back to go and fetch my wife and children.
MR PRINSLOO: Did you do that?
MR STEYN: I did that after they made certain promises to me.
MR PRINSLOO: Who made the promises?
MR STEYN: The promises came from both Major Johan Smit and Brigadier Leon van der Merwe. The promises said that I do not have to be worried about food if we do not have food, I do not have to worry about money either and also I do not have to worry about my job. At that stage I was working in Brakpan, Western Platinum Refinery and I had a permanent post there.
MR PRINSLOO: What did you do then?
MR STEYN: At that stage I was on sick leave so I moved up or rather I went to go and fetch my wife and I convinced her which was quite difficult, but eventually I did convince her that we must go together. Also after they told me that they intercepted a fax of the Ystergarde which said that if they found any Ystergarde anywhere he will be eliminated, he will be killed.
MR PRINSLOO: So did you go to Ventersdorp with your family?
MR STEYN: I went back Friday, I think it was the 22nd. I returned that day to Ventersdorp together with my possessions, the ones I could manage to bring with me. And my smallholding I left it just like that. I locked it up and I left some of my possessions were still there because I couldn't bring it with me and the Friday morning very early I left and around seven or eight o’clock I arrived at Ventersdorp.
MR PRINSLOO: Did your wife accompany you then?
MR STEYN: Yes.
MR PRINSLOO: And your children?
MR STEYN: Yes the children were with us as well.
MR PRINSLOO: And where did your wife and children go? Where were they taken?
MR STEYN: We arrived at head office, at that stage the people at head office were so busy and many people were arriving at head office and as it is at any office they were trying to put things right for the day's tasks and the first things which was given to us they gave me a form which I had to complete, similar to what you would fill in when you go on a border operation. You would put down your religious connections, etc and your particulars, the names of the next-of-kin.
I did that and after that, I am not dead sure but somebody arrived there from the farm and at a later time that day we went to the farm, this is the farm of Cliff Barnard.
MR PRINSLOO: Mr Steyn we have already heard evidence that you, Mr Nel and Mr Gert Fourie the three of you went to Pretoria with the pipe bombs. is that correct?
MR STEYN: That is correct.
MR PRINSLOO: And can you tell the Committee what happened in Pretoria, what did you do that day with regards to the pipe bombs?
MR STEYN: Chairperson I do not know where to start. Can I start at Pretoria itself?
MR PRINSLOO: Yes begin with what happened in Pretoria.
MR STEYN: When we arrived in Pretoria after, I do not know Pretoria well not even today. I do not know how to get in and out of Pretoria but the other applicant, Mr Jaco Nel according to myself knew Pretoria very well and when we arrived in Pretoria we went to certain places, amongst others we went to a taxi rank.
There was a lot of police in the vicinity and he said that we cannot then detonate this pipe bomb in that vicinity because we will definitely be arrested if we happen to do that. Afterwards we went to several other places. I am not sure, I do not know Pretoria very well, I know it badly.
MR PRINSLOO: Which place did you go to? What is this place you went to or places? Did I hear you incorrectly did you say a place or places?
MR STEYN: Places amongst others I am not sure. We went to another taxi rank, I am not sure, there were a lot of buses and things there but in that vicinity there was also a lot of police and there were a lot of police activities. Once again we returned to the first taxi rank. I do not know exactly where it was, the circumstances were basically the same. Then he recommended - well actually together we decided that we would not be able to complete that mission then because as soon as we throw the bomb we would be arrested.
MR PRINSLOO: Who of you three was the senior?
MR STEYN: The applicant who has just spoken before, Mr Jaco Nel. His rank was that of Captain.
MR PRINSLOO: Were you his subordinate?
MR STEYN: Yes I was a lieutenant in the Ystergarde and the other applicant who will still appear, Gert Fourie was also a Lieutenant.
MR PRINSLOO: Continue?
MR STEYN: Afterwards after we decided that this attempt of ours would not be successful he recommended that he knew people in a flat, friends of his. It seemed to me as if they were his friends but when we got there it was a female friend of his at a flat. I do not exactly where this was and I would not be able to confirm even today where this was.
We arrived there and we parked the vehicle in the street in front of the flat and the two pipe bombs were in the back in the boot at that stage and then we found the people in the flat. There were two ladies, an older one and a younger one if I remember correctly. The younger girl I do not know exactly how old she was I would say she was about ten.
MR PRINSLOO: Were there any men there?
MR STEYN: No not at all Chairperson. He chatted to them and he introduced us to them and then they offered us some coffee and after we had finished our coffee they were busy with packing. We couldn't determine if they were leaving on holiday or what was going on but afterwards I found out or I learned from them as we were speaking that they were also members of the AWB but they were unknown to me because they did not live in my area or my district.
The two ladies and the young girl, after they packed their things Jaco Nel asked them if we can use their flat just to stay over for the night. I do not know if he gave them any reasons, I cannot really say because I was not with them the whole time. He was moving around quite often within this building, mostly in the foyer where we drank coffee we sat there. He went with them to the room and helped them to pack and they had a vehicle I think it was a blue Golf and they moved around in this vehicle. They had lean to where they parked the car underneath. This was at the flat where they stayed.
I am not sure but I think Jaco asked them if they could not pull the car out and whilst they were putting their luggage into the Golf, Jaco pulled his car underneath this lean-to so that the car wouldn't be visible because at that stage he still had the original registration plates on the car and there was talk that he would put forged number plates on it later.
After a while the people left and when they left Jaco Nel told them that he would see them later because he knew where they were going. Apparently it was a resort at the Hartebeespoort dam where they were going. I still to this day do not know where that place is but I confirm that I was there myself. They used this place for training purposes according to him.
MR PRINSLOO: Let's stick to what happened in Pretoria.
MR STEYN: Afterwards they also said - let's stay with Pretoria, afterwards they left and we were there alone. Then we walked to town. We knew that we couldn't go on a mission then because of the strong presence of the police. I had a shoe problem, the sole of my shoe went loose, this is the shoe I was wearing. If I remember correctly we went to the OK Bazaars and I bought myself a pair of takkies or trainers. I think Jaco also bought something it might have been clothing, everybody bought something there.
MR PRINSLOO: At that stage did you get any number plates?
MR STEYN: This was at the same time that we went to the OK. Jaco said we had to stand on the one side of the road and that he is quickly going to get number plates made, so he went to the place where he made the number plates and he had to wait awhile. In the meantime - he said he will go and fetch it later, so in the meantime we went to the OK and when we went back he got the number plates.
MR PRINSLOO: Were these number plates similar to the ones he had?
MR STEYN: No they were just different.
MR PRINSLOO: So obtained these number plates. And these number plates did you attach it to the vehicle?
MR STEYN: The number plates later that day when we drove we changed the number plates, we removed the original ones.
MR PRINSLOO: Those number plates - did you drive again in the evening with the vehicle or at any other time?
MR STEYN: I am not a hundred percent sure, during that time while we were there I am not sure if Jaco was driving with his vehicle or whether he was driving with the females vehicle. He might have said that he wanted to go around to his wife. At that stage I was not sure of his wife and the problems between the two of them so I did not know anything of that, I assumed that he was going to go to his wife.
MR PRINSLOO: So he left the flat for a while?
MR STEYN: Yes he left alone but myself and Gert Fourie stayed behind on our own at the flat.
MR PRINSLOO: And Jaco Nel, did he return later?
MR STEYN: Yes he returned later.
MR PRINSLOO: Now with regards to that specific evening to come closer to the event, did you drive again? Did you go and look for a target?
MR STEYN: We went back to this taxi rank where there was still a lot of police around but according to me there was even a stronger police presence than it was the morning or the time we were there during the morning. Afterwards Jaco said, I am not sure, he said he was going to drive to another taxi rank, the one we went to the previous day. On the way there, this is a type of a beer hall or something, I don't know what you would call it, we drove past this place and there were quite a lot of people around and vehicles were parked at the side of this building and I assumed these were the peoples' vehicles who were inside the hall. Jaco then said what is wrong with this place.
We looked at the place and we said well whether we throw it at a taxi stand or whether we detonate it here it doesn't matter, as long as we only achieve our goal which was to shock people and to create the psychosis of fear within them so that they would be aware of the fact that bombs are exploding and that they will receive a message some way or another, a message saying that they should not go and vote. That was the instruction which we received, we had to sow panic.
MR PRINSLOO: So did you decide it was an appropriate target?
MR STEYN: Ja we decided it was appropriate but mostly Jaco. It was mostly Jaco's target but we identified ourselves with him because we were his subordinates.
MR PRINSLOO: So it was his instruction, is that what you are saying?
MR STEYN: Yes.
MR PRINSLOO: Now at that stage did you use the pipe bomb?
MR STEYN: I was a passenger, I was sitting on the left at the back of the car and I had the pipe bomb between my legs. At that stage Jaco told me that he was going to drive slowly past this place and I must light this thing and I must throw it out of the car. If I remember correctly there was a telephone pole or a lamp post, he just drove past that and he told me to throw it. The car was kind of idling it was almost standing still so I ignited this thing and I was very stressed and nervous because I have never had to deal with anything like this so I threw it out onto the side-walk and because it was a pipe and it was round it was rolling and it rolled towards the building and then I closed my door and Jaco sped away from there.
Before this happened we put it clearly to Jaco that, we asked him is he aware of this vicinity does he know this street but he assured us he basically grew up in Pretoria. So he knew Pretoria well and the way he drove towards the taxi ranks you could see that he knew the place well. When he sped away from there it was as if it wasn't Jaco any longer, he was shocked. Before the first street we turned off, it was a one-way street, he drove left into a one-way street and a police truck came from the front and we moved closer to this police van. I do not know if the police van was in a rush because he did not pay attention to us. Afterwards he turned left into a right street and it was a double lane as I can remember, then he went left and right and up and down. I do not know where he went from there.
MR PRINSLOO: Why did he act this way?
MR STEYN: Just after the police van passed us we heard the bang, that is when the pipe bomb exploded. I do not know if it was the bang or the loud noise or whether he was shocked, I do not know why that was his reaction but he was in a state. He drove over stop streets and he didn't stop at places where he was supposed to stop. He disobeyed all the traffic rules. I cannot really say what why he acted this way but if I must express my own opinion I think it was a shock to him. I do not think, according to me he did not know anything about bombs or pipe bombs or anything of that nature.
MR PRINSLOO: Were you worried about being arrested?
MR STEYN: Yes we all were worried about this, that is why we postponed this mission all the time and we also said amongst ourselves that the people at the game farm must realise that you would rather be scared than dead. You can't detonate the thing here and the police would see you and will arrest you and you would probably get shot as well.
MR PRINSLOO: He acted in this manner the way you described it and from there where did you go then?
MR STEYN: After that Jaco went to some place, I do not know where. He stopped there - no, I am sorry, I would just like to correct myself, before we went on this mission we went to a place where we put the number plates on or changed the number plates. I almost confused myself there, I wanted to say we took them off there but we drove with those number plates to that holiday resort.
MR PRINSLOO: Why did you go there?
MR STEYN: Jaco apparently said, and he said it in our presence as well, that he would meet the people there and said that he would go around there and that is also what happened. He then drove there and while we were driving there Jaco was still very shocked according to what we observed. He also told us that we will not get very far, we will not be able to go back to the game farm because he knows this Hartebeespoort Dam road and there are usually road-blocks on this road and that they will arrest us if some one may have noticed a vehicle. He was worried about the police van that drove past us in that one-way street. That he possibly, because I assumed he was not very far from where the bomb exploded and they could have thought that this is the vehicle or they could have thought that this is the vehicle, and he could have identified a blue Toyota although he did not have the right number plates. A point that Jaco then made was that we have to stay there that evening before we drive away because of the road-blocks and everything calms down a bit and then whenever we see that things are quietening down we can then go back to the game farm.
MR PRINSLOO: Did you then go to this specific place, this resort?
MR STEYN: Yes I was at this resort. When we arrived there we changed the number plates again, we put on the original ones and in the meantime Jaco went in. The same people were there, the specific two ladies and amongst others, as in his evidence, there were two older men. They were blind yes. They could play very good guitar. They were old Rhodesians, they came from there and they sang songs and they played on the guitars and we sang. We did not sing with them no, we listened to them and in the meantime they told us that they had certain discussions and they said that they are from Rhodesia, etc.
Jaco then went into one of the rooms there. There wasn't a door on this room there was just a curtain. They then went into this room and most of the time we heard them talking. I assumed that what we also told them was that Jaco is not feeling very well because we did not want them to know at that stage that we planted the bomb or threw the bomb.
Afterwards I am not sure if they wanted to see if they could help Jaco or maybe give him some medication or something, I do not know what the situation was. We waited for Jaco and in the meantime we sat in a kitchen area. The older lady came there at one stage and asked us if we wanted coffee and we said yes it would be nice. She made us coffee as well as for the two older men who played the guitar. That was more or less the story.
What we also observed or saw was that there were a lot of other people who we also learnt while we had certain discussions with the two old men, that there were also other people there who were members of the AWB and who gathered there together. I do not know if Jaco was aware of that but according to these two old men they conveyed that to us.
MR PRINSLOO: From there did you then leave the three of you?
MR STEYN: No I am not quite sure. When we left there I was quite tired because the previous evening before we left the game farm I was doing guard duty so I did not have much sleep because when I came back from guard duty we then left there. I tried to sleep in the car but it was very difficult with this bomb that we were carrying with us.
MR PRINSLOO: Can you remember that during your hearing there was a woman who gave evidence against Mr Nel concerning what happened at that resort?
MR STEYN: Yes I am aware of that but I cannot exactly remember what she said.
MR PRINSLOO: You then left from the resort?
MR STEYN: Yes that is true.
MR PRINSLOO: And what time was that, can you say?
MR STEYN: I am not quite sure but if I must say it was around 2 o' clock that morning more or less, I am not quite sure.
MR PRINSLOO: Mr Steyn, the history has been told before this Committee how do you feel about the people who were killed and injured as well as the people in Western area, the damages that was done in Randfontein, how do you feel about these actions?
MR STEYN: My personal feeling is that I am very sorry about what happened. I do not know if one can really tell the next-of-kin of those victims, to ask them properly or to tell them properly how sorry you are and convince them, if I can say it as follows, for such a cowardice display or act. At this stage I will put it as such, at that stage I believed in what I was doing was the right thing and I did it for my volk and my fatherland and I believed in what I was doing it was the right thing.
MR PRINSLOO: At that stage did you act by yourself or did you act on behalf of the AWB?
MR STEYN: I acted fully on behalf of the AWB and I identified myself with their objectives.
MR PRINSLOO: Mr Steyn, you handed yourself over a while after these events, is that correct? ...[transcriber's own translation]
MR STEYN: Yes that is correct.
MR PRINSLOO: Mr Steyn, your application, do you confirm the correctness of your application, that is A and B as well as your application.
MR STEYN: Yes that is correct.
MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO: .
CHAIRPERSON: Mrs van der Walt have you got any questions?
MS VAN DER WALT: I have got no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KRIEL: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
Sir what was the objectives of the AWB as you understood it then?
MR STEYN: Mr Chairperson the objectives of the AWB was to obtain an own Volkstaat for the Boerevolk.
MR KRIEL: Is that all?
MR STEYN: No, the objectives were also such that, the AWB's objective was to stop the elections and to undermine the government of the day in order to create chaos during that election time.
MR KRIEL: Was that the only objective of the AWB during April 1994?
MR STEYN: No Mr Chairperson, the objectives, there were various objectives. The main objective was the obtainment of a Volkstaat and that was also why we were called up.
MR KRIEL: Were you called up to found this Volkstaat or to protect a future Volkstaat?
MR STEYN: If there was time we would have established or founded it if we received permission but at that stage there wasn't time because the so-called Volkstaat's borders, we would have been able to protect it and then try and fight and by doing that found the Volkstaat.
MR KRIEL: You see that is the problem. You were there gathered together and right through the evidence I understand, to protect but not to attack, did you understand it in that way that you are there to protect?
MR STEYN: Could you please repeat?
MR KRIEL: You were called up to the Western Transvaal, the Ventersdorp area to protect the farmers and the people and the Volkstaat that will be founded, to protect that.
MR STEYN: I do not understand the question very well.
MR KRIEL: You went to Ventersdorp to protect not to attack, with the original call-up instruction?
MR STEYN: No we did not go there just to protect, we were called up to Ventersdorp to make war. That was our call-up
instructions, they told us that and that is why I accepted it when they call me up, that I must take all my weapons and ammunition and equipment with me and if there would be any situation I would have to execute those orders.
CHAIRPERSON: You see Mr Steyn in a war there are at least two sides, the one attack, the one protect, defend. It does not necessarily mean that when you are called up to make war that you will attack. Now what Mr Kriel is referring to is that during that evidence that we have heard it was said: "We were called up to Ventersdorp to protect the borders of the planned Volkstaat as well as the Boerevolk who were attacked at the farm", do you understand?
MR STEYN: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: And that is what Mr Kriel is referring to, not to attack but to defend and in so doing to make war.
MR STEYN: Yes that is correct, to protect and defend.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KRIEL
ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, unless you wanted to follow that up with something.
My question again is related to the same aspect. To make war as you understood it - is that alright, to make war as you understood it against whom, because the evidence to date covers the NP, the ANC, communists, black people, where do you fit your political motive in? And the political objective of the AWB as you understood it?
MR STEYN: Mr Chairperson a lot of things were asked to me, maybe if you could just ask it in a shorter way?
MR MALAN: The question - if I can speak Afrikaans to you I will ask them one by one, the question is that the war that you were talking about against whom would this be, the ANC?
MR STEYN: The war would be against the ANC Mr Chairperson.
MR MALAN: Against the SACP?
MR STEYN: Yes the SACP alliance.
MR MALAN: Against black people?
MR STEYN: No not necessarily all the black people.
MR MALAN: Against white people?
MR STEYN: Against white people, we would fight a war if they identified themselves with the ANC's policy.
MR MALAN: Against the National Party?
MR STEYN: At that stage they were also one of our enemies.
MR MALAN: What does such a war look like? Have you ever thought to yourself, if the war is now going on where am I, who do I shoot? Did you have a picture in your mind?
MR STEYN: Mr Chairperson, at that stage I would have believed that all the promises that they made there would be better planning, and I am not saying these things to make war just because our little group did something and they didn't do anything but there were also other people who made promises namely, Constand Viljoen them and people like him, made promises and then great things could have happened in this country.
MR MALAN: Mr Steyn, am I correct if I say that you did not have any idea how that war would be fought, where it is going to begin, who is going to shoot first, where you are going to shoot, you just want to fight in this war and you were satisfied to fight in this war of the AWB?
MR STEYN: I was satisfied with the fighting in a war. I was not, and I think only a few people could say what this war would have looked like and how it would have happened.
MR MALAN: Did you think that on game farm you would sit behind one of the sleeping places and dodge and people are shooting at you? ...[transcriber's own translation]
MR STEYN: But at that stage I still assumed that it was more in a beginning stage, the game farm, and I did not realise the real purpose of the whole situation at that stage.
MR MALAN: Did you think that you will fire the first shot or that people would shoot at you?
MR STEYN: I cannot really say, there we would have had to wait for instructions.
MR MALAN: So you didn't have any idea what this war would look like, you just knew that you were going to fight in a war?
MR STEYN: That is correct yes.
ADV GCABASHE: Now you said in your evidence that the reason you did not take your wife the first time was because you wanted to seek clarity on what exactly was going on, yes?
MR STEYN: That is correct yes.
ADV GCABASHE: But you didn't really get any clarity at all did you?
MR STEYN: After I spoke to Leon van der Merwe and they convinced me, I relied on them in the promises they made and I believed that we could rely on them and I did rely on them.
ADV GCABASHE: But they simply said to you: "We are going to make war", you didn't really know what you would be doing, how exactly you could fulfil your own ambition as an AWB member through your organisation. You were really just there to take instructions.
MR STEYN: That is correct yes.
ADV GCABASHE: So if they had said to you we are going back to, let's take the Bophuthatswana incident, if they had said to you that is where we are going to start, Mangope wants us to do something for him again, you would have done that because they were ordering you to do that and not because you believed you should be going to protect Mangope or prop him up?
MR STEYN: No Mr Chairperson, it was not part of our Volkstaat's ideal.
CHAIRPERSON: Why did you go to Bophuthatswana?
MR STEYN: I beg your pardon?
CHAIRPERSON: Why did the AWB go to Bophuthatswana?
MR STEYN: I carry no knowledge of that, I was not involved there.
CHAIRPERSON: Did the people not say to you: "We are going to Bophuthatswana for this or that?
MR STEYN: I saw it over the news and I heard some of it.
CHAIRPERSON: But in the AWB circles, didn't they discuss it?
MR STEYN: According to me there were a few AWB members involved in the Bophuthatswana incident.
CHAIRPERSON: As far as I can remember they did take responsibility for it or am I wrong?
MR STEYN: I am not quite sure no.
CHAIRPERSON: Continue.
MR KRIEL: Mr Chairperson, as a result of your indication earlier this morning, I can see now that it is 3 o clock, do you want me to continue?
CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)
MR KRIEL: Sir it seems as if you are a very soft person, is that so? This is how it appears to me. I am now talking, I am not a lawyer any more I am talking a man to man.
MR MALAN: ...[inaudible]
CHAIRPERSON: What feeling do you get?
MR KRIEL: That he is a very soft spoken person and gentle person.
MR STEYN: Mr Chairperson, I am gentle but I do not think that you must get me at the wrong side.
MR KRIEL: I would just like to make the comment that you do remind me of Gerrie Coetzee when he was younger. Would you agree with that?
MR STEYN: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)
MR KRIEL: His appearance Mr Chairperson.
You were sent by the then government to go and fight in a war in 1979 to 1981, is that correct?
MR STEYN: Please repeat?
MR KRIEL: You were sent by the then government to go and fight in a war during the period of 1979 to July 1981?
MR STEYN: That is correct yes.
MR KRIEL: What rank did you have while you were busy with those border operations?
MR STEYN: I was a troop.
MR KRIEL: And did that war have any effect on you?
MR STEYN: Mr Chairperson, we went through many things.
MR KRIEL: I am sorry I did not hear your answer.
MR STEYN: Yes it did have an effect on me.
MR KRIEL: What was the effect that it had on you?
MR STEYN: That you were taken from your home, for two years you must do service, suddenly you are at the border, you were sent into an Angola without a passport in another country.
CHAIRPERSON: Would a passport have helped?
MR STEYN: No, I am just mentioning it now. You were sent into an Angola, you are in an operation and you fight for self-determination also at that stage we fought for this country against communism and communism at that time was the ANC government or the present government, the majority of them, and SWAPO and the PAC. There was a lot of loss of life and some of our own people who were with us we lost them there.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steyn, if there was not an alliance with the communists, what would your attitude have been towards the ANC?
MR STEYN: I do not understand.
CHAIRPERSON: It seems to me that the communism, communistic aspect of the ANC was a problem and that you fought against communism. What would your attitude be towards the ANC if they did not have an alliance with the communists?
MR STEYN: I believe that my attitude would have been different Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: To what effect?
MR STEYN: If they were not part of our enemy then you can classify him differently.
CHAIRPERSON: Now the Nationalists as far as I know did not have a communists aspect in their policy, why were they the enemy?
MR STEYN: Because they were traitors in my eyes.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR MALAN: I just want to make sure I understand you correctly, you say your attitude towards the ANC would have been different if the communists were not part of them, if you saw the ANC as non-communistic. Now I just want to make sure, would that have meant then that you would have been satisfied that they run the country, the whole country that is? You said that you wanted a Volkstaat?
MR STEYN: That is correct.
MR MALAN: The Volkstaat is an old ideal that comes from the time the AWB was founded, several times before that. Let's try and put it differently, if things - you know who Inkatha is?
MR STEYN: Yes.
MR MALAN: They not communists as far as you are concerned?
MR STEYN: Yes.
MR MALAN: And you were in favour of them?
MR STEYN: That is correct.
MR MALAN: If you realised that Inkatha was going to govern the whole country, they are going to have the majority vote, would you have been happy then?
MR STEYN: Yes Chairperson but we still would have wanted our own Volkstaat where we could have self-determination.
MR MALAN: So the own Volkstaat is non-negotiable whether you are dealing with communists or not?
MR STEYN: That is correct Chairperson.
MR KRIEL: You went through a war in 1979 and 1981 and you saw that it did not work, it did not help, you were completely dissatisfied with what you achieved, is that correct?
MR STEYN: I wasn't dissatisfied we did achieve a lot but the then National government, and if I remember correctly in the nineties the PAC and the ANC they disbanded these organisations and they made them legal if I can put it that way, it was no longer an illegal affair this ANC, PAC. That told me that we did not fight for nothing but if only they helped us at that stage then it would have been different.
MR KRIEL: But in your eyes this country you fought for during the border war this is being given away by the Nationalists now.
MR STEYN: That is correct.
MR KRIEL: Sir why did you want to become involved in a second war?
MR STEYN: Chairperson it is to fight for self-determination, I was willing to give my life for that.
CHAIRPERSON: Sir, a few months before this event the AWB, these were the allegations, they tried to do something to Bophuthatswana and according to reports they lost very badly there. What made you think that you could face the force of South Africa, white and black during the elections?
MR STEYN: Chairperson, as I already testified, according to myself and the information which was available to me there were a very few AWB members who went to Bophuthatswana, the majority of them were Freedom Front people.
CHAIRPERSON: I am not going to argue with you but what made you think that you can face the force of the rest of South Africa and win?
MR STEYN: Chairperson, if we can go back into the history, it is the same as the Battle of Bloodriver where there were only a few Boers and they defeated a great majority of people because their religious life was intact. I think in this case as well, if your religion is right then you don't have to have a massive force behind you in order to be victorious.
MR KRIEL: Sir, when you received your training for the then National government in the army were you indoctrinated?
MR STEYN: Chairperson, I do not understand that word. I have boxed already, I'm sorry.
MR KRIEL: That aspect I will leave Mr Chairman.
Let's continue. You were scared to take your wife with you but when the promises were made you decided well now I am going to take my wife to Ventersdorp, is that correct?
MR STEYN: I wasn't scared to take her, the choice was hers, I just didn't want to leave her there on her own.
MR KRIEL: Where did she live when you moved to Ventersdorp the first time?
MR STEYN: In the Springs district.
MR KRIEL: And they made promises to you and they told you there would be food?
MR STEYN: That is correct.
MR KRIEL: They told you money is not a problem?
MR STEYN: That is so yes.
MR KRIEL: And they told you there is work because we are going to take over and we are going to found this Wesbou and you are going to have a job to protect and secure the towns on the West Rand.
MR STEYN: Not West Rand, West Transvaal.
MR KRIEL: West Transvaal I am sorry. So as a result of those promises you were prepared to go back and fetch your wife and to then further take part in the struggle, is that correct.
MR STEYN: That is correct.
MR KRIEL: You were positioned or posted to the game farm, can you remember which day?
MR STEYN: The 22nd I arrived at Ventersdorp, after that we went to Cliff Barnard's farm and that same day the big group who was there together with them we left for Ottosdal and from there the men went to the game farm.
MR KRIEL: Which day was that, you went to Pretoria on the Monday?
MR STEYN: The Friday the morning I arrived at the head office in Ventersdorp and the Friday afternoon the big group which was at Clifton Barnard's farm left for Ottosdal to another farm which was more appropriate or more fit for the women. That is the conclusion I made.
MR KRIEL: Which day did you arrive at the game farm? Was it the Saturday?
MR STEYN: It was the Saturday morning very early.
MR KRIEL: And you stood guard - let me put it this way, did you know the members of the Generals in staff?
MR STEYN: I knew some of them Chairperson.
MR KRIEL: On the Saturday or the Sunday were there any members of the Generals in staff at the game farm?
MR STEYN: Yes amongst others I saw General Nico Prinsloo there and Brigadier Leon van der Merwe was also there.
MR KRIEL: Were they there all the time or did they move back and forth from this place?
MR STEYN: I didn't see them all the time. I know at one stage Brigadier Leon van der Merwe was there with a motor cycle and then he left and the motor bike was tied to the back of the pick-up. I don't think they were there the whole time.
MR KRIEL: Very well, the Sunday evening when this meeting was called and Koper Myburgh demonstrated the pipe bombs to you, were you there?
MR STEYN: Yes I was there.
MR KRIEL: Was a request then made to people who had vehicles?
MR STEYN: Yes, they were looking for drivers with their own cars.
MR KRIEL: And who asked this, was this Jannie du Plessis?
MR STEYN: Commandant Johan du Plessis.
MR KRIEL: Did he ask for drivers or did he appoint drivers?
MR STEYN: I am not sure now, I think he asked for drivers.
MR KRIEL: Did he say I am looking for four drivers?
MR STEYN: That is correct.
MR KRIEL: With vehicles?
MR STEYN: That is correct.
MR KRIEL: And how is it that you then got together with Jaco Nel, you and Gert Fourie?
MR STEYN: Gert Fourie I do not know about but I know Jaco asked me if I would accompany him and I conceded to that.
MR KRIEL: And Gert Fourie, how was it that he joined you?
MR STEYN: It was only me and Jaco Nel and a while afterwards, from what I could tell Gert Fourie was doing guard duty and then I do not know if he arrived there afterwards, but they asked him if he also wants to accompany us.
MR KRIEL: So he was asked to join you?
MR STEYN: Yes.
ADV GCABASHE: You say Jaco Nel asked you if you would go with him. Was that an instruction or a request?
MR STEYN: In my eyes it was an instruction. If such a person ask you that kind of a question in such a situation then you would see it as an instruction.
ADV GCABASHE: But du Plessis did not instruct you or ask you to go with Nel did he?
MR STEYN: No, du Plessis did not give me an instruction directly.
ADV GCABASHE: Now when Nel asked you was this in du Plessis' presence or were you on your own at that stage?
MR STEYN: I am not sure, du Plessis was in the vicinity but I do not know if he heard him asking me that or if he knew about it.
ADV GCABASHE: Now in those circumstances who was your commanding officer?
MR STEYN: The commanding officer of operations was Commandant "Duppie" du Plessis.
ADV GCABASHE: And yet you took an instruction as you term it or understood it from Nel?
MR STEYN: That is correct. What I understood about the grouping there was that the drivers had to find themselves two people to join them and he approached me and I told him I would go with him.
ADV GCABASHE: So it was at the driver's discretion to pick the people he thought should accompany him on a mission?
MR STEYN: I would assume that yes.
ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.
ADV BOSMAN: Mr Steyn who said that the drivers must find people to accompany them?
MR STEYN: Chairperson, I am not hundred percent sure but if I must say I will say that instruction came specifically from Johan du Plessis.
ADV BOSMAN: Let me put it this way, you say you are not quite sure. Who was in charge of this grouping?
MR STEYN: It was Johan du Plessis.
ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.
MR KRIEL: You went to Pretoria would you agree with me that the events on Monday in Pretoria the way you describe it is not exactly the same as what Jaco Nel said, would you agree with that?
MR STEYN: Would you please repeat?
MR KRIEL: That what happened on the Monday in Pretoria and the way you described it to the Committee it is not the same how Jaco Nel described it, would you agree with that?
MR STEYN: Yes.
MR KRIEL: Now both versions cannot be the truth, would you agree with that?
MR STEYN: No it cannot both be true.
MR KRIEL: So one of you took the Committee into your trust, either you or Jaco Nel.
MR STEYN: I cannot confirm that Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: In other words which one of you are speaking the truth you or Jaco Nel between the two of you?
MR STEYN: I took an oath saying that I will tell the truth and according to me what I am telling you is the truth.
MR KRIEL: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KRIEL: .
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOTLAUNG: Thank you Mr Chairman. Sir talking about the way you ultimately found yourself going to Pretoria or being part of the Pretorian mission it is not your evidence that "Duppie" Johan du Plessis ever asked you to be party to any mission correct?
MR STEYN: As far as I can remember no.
MR MOTLAUNG: And to the extent that Jaco Nel asked you to accompany him and you say that you agreed to go along, Did you
agree to go along because you viewed him as your senior or because he was one of the drivers that asked you to accompany him?
MR STEYN: Chairperson, I went because he was one of my seniors.
MR MOTLAUNG: When you were now on the mission in Pretoria, was there a commander among the three of you?
MR STEYN: I do not understand the question.
MR MOTLAUNG: Who was the leader of the mission?
MR STEYN: If I must use my own discretion then I would say this is the way we were trained, it would have been Jaco Nel.
MR MOTLAUNG: Understand look apparently it is a conclusion or an inference that you are now making. I am trying to understand at the time when you went on the mission, is that how you understood it that Jaco Nel was the leader, is that how everybody understood it amongst the three of you?
MR STEYN: I do not understand.
CHAIRPERSON: If a decision had be taken amongst the three of you who could have made that decision?
MR STEYN: Definitely Jaco Nel Chairperson.
MR MOTLAUNG: And Sir, were you there when instructions were given by Johan du Plessis about the mission to Pretoria? Let me not put it that way, when - according to paragraph 12 and I quote
"Every vehicle driver found him two passengers and they were tasked to go and throw pipe bombs in certain towns."
When this happened, the only impression that I get here is that people were told that bombs would have to be thrown or used in certain towns, that is all that that is saying.
MR STEYN: That is correct. Commandant "Duppie" was present when he gave us these instructions. I do not know if he specifically gave me an instruction.
MR MOTLAUNG: As you understood them at the time, did anybody say that the pipe bombs must be used at the taxi ranks?
MR STEYN: That is correct, the pipe bombs had to be thrown at the taxi ranks. I would assume that because you wouldn't often find a white taxi rank.
ADV GCABASHE: No, but the question is one of fact, did you hear anybody say those bombs should be thrown at black taxi ranks? Don't assume, what did you hear?
MR STEYN: Yes Chairperson.
MR MOTLAUNG: Did you hear anybody say that?
MR STEYN: That is correct Chairperson.
MR MOTLAUNG: Who was it?
MR STEYN: It was Commandant "Duppie".
MR MOTLAUNG: Are you sure about that Sir?
MR STEYN: I am almost a hundred percent sure Chairperson.
MR MOTLAUNG: So when you went out to Pretoria you knew that you were going to throw a pipe bomb at the black commuters, is that what you are saying?
MR STEYN: That is correct Chairperson.
MR MOTLAUNG: So your intention was to kill them?
MR STEYN: I wouldn't say to specifically kill them but ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: What did you think what was going to happen if you throw a bomb there?
MR STEYN: The possibility existed that they could have been killed but not in all regards. Can I just make it clear? I did not know the strength or the explosion power of that pipe bomb.
CHAIRPERSON: You must have heard last week it was specifically said that peoples' lives had to be taken. Did you not hear that?
MR STEYN: I did hear it.
CHAIRPERSON: So why are we battling here?
MR STEYN: What I am trying to say Chairperson, is that when we threw the bomb we did not know if people would die or not.
ADV BOSMAN: Can I put it to you this way Mr Steyn, did you have peace whether people die or not?
MR STEYN: It was part of our task and Chairperson if people had to die it was one of those things.
ADV BOSMAN: If you can just give me a simple yes or no. I don't want to push you into a corner, I simply want an answer. You didn't care whether people died or not?
MR STEYN: Yes.
MR MOTLAUNG: Sir, listening to the way you gave your testimony and particularly when you were talking about Jaco Nel I am getting an impression and please correct me if it is wrong, that somewhere you feel like you have been abused, like at some stage he took you to some place, it later turned out it is like this was a girlfriend or things like that. Is that impression correct?
MR STEYN: That is so Chairperson.
MR MOTLAUNG: And finally, Sir tell me when you went to Pretoria you saw yourself executing a mission as endowed or given to you by Johan du Plessis, correct?
MR STEYN: That is correct.
MR MOTLAUNG: And is it also correct that he gave you a particular target that you must go for, correct?
MR STEYN: That is correct.
MR MOTLAUNG: You did not go for the target that you have been given, yourself, Jaco Nel and the other one is Mr Gert Fourie decided within your own wisdom at some stage that you are changing the target, correct?
MR STEYN: That is correct Chairperson. Actually it was not my decision but I identified myself with it. It was impossible to throw the pipe bomb at a taxi rank.
MR MOTLAUNG: Knowing that you operated like a soldier you knew that now you are carrying out your own mission, this is not the mission that you had been sent out on, correct?
MR STEYN: No Chairperson, even though we did use our own discretion at that stage it was put clearly to us that we do not go back unless an explosion takes place.
MR MOTLAUNG: Are you saying that were told that you must go for the black taxi rank or if you can't find a black taxi rank go for anything else otherwise I would have really wanted to hear it before hand. Is that your evidence?
MR PRINSLOO: Chairperson, that is not what he testified, he specifically explained what happened and why they targeted another target.
CHAIRPERSON: But he did add that he used his own discretion or that is the impression he gave us.
MR PRINSLOO: But in all respect the way I understand his evidence was that the bomb had to explode.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but what does it mean when he says you must see that the bomb explode: "You do not return", or words to that effect, "unless you made a bomb explode".
MR PRINSLOO: That is correct he must make sure the bomb goes off but with respect, he doesn't mean that he had to use his own discretion.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh then I do not know.
MR MOTLAUNG: So Mr Steyn, the discretion that you are now talking about is your own discretion that you gave yourself, nobody gave you the discretion about the targets, correct?
MR STEYN: No Mr Chairperson, the discretion was not my responsibility what to do, the discretion was Jaco Nel's, he chose this specific place and we just had to identify with him or reconcile with his decision.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOTLAUNG: .
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR: Mr Steyn just in short three points. I know that it is late but it is not fair to put such limitations. It would have been stupid to detonate the bomb if the police was in the area?
MR STEYN: That is true yes.
MR PRIOR: As I understand your position you wanted to plant the bomb there or throw the bomb there but because the police was there you decided against it?
MR STEYN: Yes that is correct.
MR PRIOR: And then later that evening you threw it at another place?
MR STEYN: Yes were there twice at that specific place.
MR PRIOR: When Mr Myburgh demonstrated these pipe bombs to you he must have surely told you that if you light the fuse you have to get away fast because it will explode?
MR STEYN: That is true.
MR PRIOR: Because if you remain in that area you will blow yourself up so you knew that if you detonate that bomb people can be killed in the process?
MR STEYN: That is correct yes.
MR PRIOR: Was that in your mind when you rolled out the bomb to the structure where people where sitting drinking in Maraba town? In Mr du Plessis' application on page 113 he gave evidence or testified in front of this Committee that the people who were grouped together they said: "choose your own pipe bomb", is that correct?
MR STEYN: That is true yes.
MR PRIOR: What pipe bomb did you choose, a big one, a small one, a round one, which one?
MR STEYN: I cannot really comment on that.
MR PRIOR: Indicate to us how long this pipe bomb was?
MR STEYN: I would say it was approximately 600cm long.
MR PRIOR: Was it one of the biggest ones that was lying around there?
MR STEYN: I cannot comment no, it was in a vehicle's boot.
MR PRIOR: Is it correct that you did not just follow instructions, you identified yourself with the bomb missions that went out from the game farm in order to create chaos and kill people?
MR STEYN: That is correct yes.
MR PRIOR: We don't want to take a long route here now but you went after Myburgh?
MR STEYN: Yes we did identify ourselves with these bombings.
MR PRIOR: When Myburgh demonstrated there after that meeting under the tree outside, did he talk about killing people?
MR STEYN: Yes that is true.
MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR
FURTHER RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO: Mr Steyn, are you aware that Commandant du Plessis took down the names of the different groups that went out? Do you know that?
MR STEYN: No Mr Chairperson but afterwards I did. I understood it that way yes.
MR PRINSLOO: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO
ADV BOSMAN: Just one question. Why did you give yourself up Mr Steyn, because I understand that the AWB people do not betray each other?
MR STEYN: Mr Chairperson I could not be running the whole time because while I was on the run every evening when I went to bed and sleep and wherever I was, I was not aware what was going on with my wife and children.
ADV BOSMAN: In other words it was on behalf of your wife and children that you gave yourself up?
MR STEYN: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Steyn.
WITNESS IS EXCUSED: .
CHAIRPERSON: It is now approximately the time for us to adjourn. We will adjourn then till nine thirty tomorrow morning, thank you very much.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
