MR VISSER: Chairperson, the last applicant for whom we appear is W/O Lawrence Gerald Wasserman, whom we call to the stand. He will give his evidence in English. We beg leave to hand up to you a summary of his evidence and we would propose that that be marked Exhibit F.
CHAIRPERSON: That will be so marked.
MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman. He has no objection to taking the prescribed oath.
LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Please take a seat, Mr Wasserman. You're an applicant in this incident, is that correct?
MR WASSERMAN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: Have you perused Exhibit A?
MR WASSERMAN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: And do you find yourself in agreement or disagreement with the contents of Exhibit A?
MR WASSERMAN: I concur with the contents.
MR VISSER: And you ask that that be incorporated in your evidence, together with references to other evidence which Exhibit A contains, is that correct?
MR WASSERMAN: Correct, Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: You have previously given evidence before another Amnesty Committee in the application with regard to Ndwandwe, the KwaMashu 3, and Pumezo Ncgweni, is that correct?
MR WASSERMAN: Correct, Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: If you will please turn to page 2, and will you inform the Committee what your knowledge and participation was in the present incident. You first of all refer to the evidence of Col Vorster. You have also heard the evidence of Col Botha this morning, in regard to the background of the violence in Natal and the situation in Swaziland, is that correct?
MR WASSERMAN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: Do you also find yourself in agreement with that?
MR WASSERMAN: I do.
MR VISSER: Would you please continue at page 2, paragraph 2, of Exhibit F.
MR WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman.
"I was instructed by Col Botha from Durban, to accompany him on an operation to Swaziland. I was informed by him that there was information to hand that an important Umkhonto weSizwe member, Dion Cele, had indicated that he would be willing to work for the Security Branch. And our mission would be to abduct Dion Cele from Swaziland, bring him to the RSA and attempt to turn him and recruit him and place him back."
MR VISSER: Right. What did you know about Cele, what were you told?
MR WASSERMAN
"We knew that Dion Cele was a member of border work, attached to the Natal machinery. He lived in Manzini and he was undergoing night school at Scot, at a technical college in Manzini in Swaziland.
And as a border worker he was responsible for the infiltration of MK into Natal and the subsequent movement of weapons with those units and responsible for acts of terror within this province."
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.
MR WASSERMAN
"I was informed that there was an informer who was handled by Mr Vorster ..."
...(intervention)
MR VISSER: Goodwill Sikhakane?
MR WASSERMAN: Goodwill Sikhakane. I learnt the name at a later stage.
"... and he would assist in bringing forward Dion Cele."
MR VISSER: Right. You travelled with Botha from Durban in a kombi, is that correct, to Amsterdam?
MR WASSERMAN: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: Did you go in with Botha and Vorster on the reconnaissance trip?
MR WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: Before the abduction was performed?
MR WASSERMAN: No.
MR VISSER: Right. Did you stay behind in Amsterdam?
MR WASSERMAN: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: Alright. And then on the next occasion when Swaziland was entered, did you then accompany them?
MR WASSERMAN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: Can you just tell us about that?
MR WASSERMAN
"Col Botha and I took the kombi in. We entered legally, proceeded to Manzini to the George Hotel and there linked up with Sikhakane."
MR VISSER: Yes?
MR WASSERMAN: Form there ...(intervention)
MR VISSER: Did he come, get into the kombi with you?
MR WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: And at one stage, was he asked to take over the driving of the kombi?
MR WASSERMAN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.
"He then drove to a spot near the main gates of the Scot, of the technical training college in Manzini."
MR VISSER: And what did you do, where did you go?
MR WASSERMAN
"I and Mr Botha then took up hiding places in the rear of the kombi and we were covered by some large cardboard boxes."
MR VISSER: Yes.
MR WASSERMAN
"Shortly after standing off outside there, Dion Cele came forward and he entered the vehicle by the sliding door."
MR VISSER: Why not through the passenger door?
MR WASSERMAN: He couldn't enter through the left-hand door as we had jimmied that lock to make it useless, thereby enforcing him to use the sliding door, giving us the sign that he was indeed in the vehicle.
MR VISSER: Alright. Now I may have understood this incorrectly, judging from what Mr Botha says. You say in paragraph 6
"He went to sit on the passenger's seat next to Sikhakane."
Is that the position?
MR WASSERMAN: I think that is correct position, yes.
MR VISSER: So I did understand you correctly. You differ from Mr Botha, who says that he sat on the seat behind the driver.
MR WASSERMAN: I'm not too sure where he was. I do realise - I then pulled him over once we had moved off. Sikhakane drove off. There was no indication from Cele that he was aware of our presence in the vehicle. I then, and Col Botha, then moved the box and grabbed hold of Cele and pulled him over to where I was, to the rear of the vehicle.
MR VISSER: What did he do?
MR WASSERMAN: He shouted and he kicked and he struggled.
MR VISSER: Yes, what did you do?
MR WASSERMAN: I used force. I smacked, I slapped him.
MR VISSER: You say you slapped and punched him a few times.
MR WASSERMAN: Yes, that's correct.
MR VISSER: Would that be correct?
MR WASSERMAN: And spoke and shouted at him.
MR VISSER: Yes.
MR WASSERMAN: And afterwards he became quiet when he realised that - I had told him that we're policemen from South Africa, and upon that he relaxed, he then quietened down.
MR VISSER: Well he became quiet.
MR WASSERMAN: He became quiet.
MR VISSER: Probably didn't relax, but ...
MR WASSERMAN: Well he became quiet.
MR VISSER: Yes. Go on.
MR WASSERMAN
"We then returned to the Nerston area. Sikhakane stayed behind. Col Botha drove the kombi. I was still with Mr Cele and we drove out illegally, out of Swaziland."
MR VISSER: Yes.
MR WASSERMAN
"We then continued on to this house next to Amsterdam, where the senior officers made an attempt to - well they started to debrief him and made attempts to recruit him."
MR VISSER: Did you take part in the interrogation or not?
MR WASSERMAN: No, I didn't.
MR VISSER: Alright. So was he willing to be recruited?
CHAIRPERSON: Were you present when there was an attempt to interrogate him or recruit him?
MR WASSERMAN: Not. No, Sir, not in any form.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR VISSER: Right. Did you the at some point leave Amsterdam and go to a farm in the Elandskop area in the district of Pietermaritzburg?
MR WASSERMAN: That's correct, Sir.
MR VISSER: In paragraph 10 you say after you arrived on the farm, at some point Col Botha left for Durban.
MR WASSERMAN: That is correct, Sir.
MR VISSER: And he was not present during the remainder of the event?
MR WASSERMAN: Correct, Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: What happened on the farm?
MR WASSERMAN: On the farm Cols Taylor and Vorster continued in length to try and recruit Mr Cele to come over.
MR VISSER: Were you present at that time from time to time?
MR WASSERMAN: From time to time, very irregularly, Mr Chair.
MR VISSER: Did you gain the impression that Mr Cele was willing to co-operate?
MR WASSERMAN: I was informed by both Taylor and Vorster that he was not prepared to co-operate.
MR VISSER: Please carry on with paragraph 12.
MR WASSERMAN
"Much much later, Col Taylor informed me that it was virtually impossible for this man to co-operate and I then went in and I had a chat with him. He then gave me the impression that he would not co-operate. I slapped him three or four times. It made no difference whatsoever."
MR VISSER: Was this a serious assault?
MR WASSERMAN: No, it was not serious, Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: Why did you slap him?
MR WASSERMAN: Up to that stage Mr Taylor and Mr Vorster had been "Mr Nice Guy", in one of the techniques that we use, so I was prepared to see if the raucous shouting and few slaps would create a different environment, but it did not work.
MR VISSER: Alright. In paragraph 13 you say that Taylor then spoke to you and Vorster and stated that it's clear that Cele was not recruitable, is that correct?
MR WASSERMAN: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: Continue there please.
MR WASSERMAN
"He gave us various reasons. He did state that if Cele were to be released it would be an embarrassment to the South African Government, as he had been abducted illegally in Swaziland and brought out illegally to the Republic. That was one of the major reasons."
MR VISSER: Yes, and could Cele, according to your insight, be released to go back to Swaziland unhindered?
MR WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: Why not?
MR WASSERMAN: He could have - he would have continued with his activities. In addition, placed Sikhakane in danger, as he would have realised by now that he was an agent of the Security Police.
MR VISSER: Yes. And you say in paragraph 13, Taylor then ordered Vorster and yourself to see to it that Cele be eliminated?
MR WASSERMAN: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: Did you associate yourself with that order?
MR WASSERMAN: Yes, I did, Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: What did you then do, you and Vorster?
MR WASSERMAN: Mr Vorster and I then proceeded to the pine tree plantation where we commenced to dig a grave. And once we had dug that grave we returned to the house where Mr Taylor was still with Mr Cele.
MR VISSER: Yes. You remember something when you entered, is that correct?
MR WASSERMAN: Yes. Once when we'd entered the house, Mr Taylor gave us the sign that Mr Cele was to be now taken outside and to be eliminated and I realised that Mr Cele had not - had decided not to co-operate at all.
MR VISSER: And that you had to proceed.
MR WASSERMAN: And we had to proceed with the operation.
MR VISSER: Yes.
MR WASSERMAN
"We then informed Mr Cele that he was going to be moved to another safehouse. We blindfolded him so he could not see where he could go. His hands were handcuffed behind his back."
MR VISSER: Now the blindfold you're talking about, Mr Vorster seems to remember a hood made of material of some kind. What is your recollection, if anything, about the blindfold?
MR WASSERMAN: I can't recall if it was a bag or if it was merely a piece of cloth wrapped around the eyes, Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: Alright. What did you do then?
MR WASSERMAN
"His hands were cuffed behind his back and we took him outside, outside the house and off the veranda and along the road, he walked along the road to the graveside."
MR VISSER: Did you steer him in the direction which you wanted him to go?
MR WASSERMAN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: Yes.
MR WASSERMAN
"At the spot right next to the grave I had in my possession a police baton. I rendered him unconscious with a heavy blow to the head."
MR VISSER: Why did you do that?
MR WASSERMAN: To render him unconscious, Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: For what purpose?
MR WASSERMAN: Then I was able to shoot. So he would not know.
MR VISSER: Alright. Please continue.
MR WASSERMAN
"Once unconscious I shot Mr Cele twice in the head."
MR VISSER: What with?
MR WASSERMAN: With a silenced makarov.
MR VISSER: Was this your firearm?
MR WASSERMAN: No, this makarov had been given to me earlier by Mr Taylor.
MR VISSER: Right.
MR WASSERMAN
"He was then placed in the grave."
MR VISSER: And the grave was filled in?
MR WASSERMAN: Clothing first removed.
MR VISSER: I'm sorry yes, you removed his clothing.
MR WASSERMAN: Yes.
MR VISSER: Can you remember whether you left any of the clothing on the body or whether you took everything off?
MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I seem to recall he was completely naked, but I could be wrong.
MR VISSER: Yes, alright. And then you filled in the grave.
MR WASSERMAN: We filled in the grave. After sprinkling some line on the body first, Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: Yes. Do you agree with Mr Vorster as to the reasons or the purpose of the lime?
MR WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman, I do.
MR VISSER: Right, and then what did you do?
MR WASSERMAN: We then filled in the grave and then proceeded up to the house with the clothing and burnt the clothing to ashes, to cinders.
MR VISSER: How do you see your participation in this incident as you set it out from paragraph 19 onwards?
MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, in doing what I did I saw as my duties as a policemen ...(indistinct) of the Security Branch, and I saw it as relevant to battling the conflict and the political violence that we were undergoing at the time.
MR VISSER: Go on.
MR WASSERMAN: We were conditioned by speeches of politicians and directions of our senior officers, to do all that was in our power to confront the revolutionary onslaught at all costs. And there were times when in terms of the prevailing legislation of the time, it was not possible to solve all the problems that came our way. And the present case is perhaps an example of such an instance.
In view of the above, I was in the bona fide belief that what I did in the present instance, in order to combat or derail the revolutionary onset and to protect the government and the National Party from political embarrassment, did fall within my express or implied authorities.
I did not participate in these events for any personal gain and was not driven by any personal spite or malice and I received no reward.
MR VISSER: You apply at page 1, for amnesty for the abduction or the man stealing - I notice in the Criminal Procedure Act it's two different offences Chairperson, I wasn't aware of that. I'm not quite certain which is the major offence, although it would appear that abduction might be because under the old Criminal Procedure code, abduction was a capital offence, you could receive the death penalty for that. But be that as it may, you apply for abduction or man stealing of Mr Dion Cele, his unlawful detention or depravation of his liberty, his murder - yes, I've forgotten Chairperson, I do apologise - for the assault on Mr Cele as you have explained, here in Swaziland as well as on the farm and for - and what I've also neglected to put in in your case is any offence in terms of regulations pertaining to movement, border movements. Is that correct? As well as any offence or delict which may be supported by the fact. Is that so?
MR WASSERMAN: That's so, Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman, that is the evidence which we wish to place before you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER
CHAIRPERSON: It has just occurred to me that we don't know the date on which this man was abducted. Can you tell us when that was?
MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, if my memory serves me well it was the 6th of July 1988. May I just check please, Chairman. Mr Chairman, can we check that, whether we have a specific date during the lunch hour and inform you when we come back?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and likewise the date on which he was killed.
MR VISSER: Yes, certainly Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: If you know the date of one, then you'd know without difficulty ...
MR VISSER: Yes, certainly. We will try to establish the exact date if possible.
CHAIRPERSON: And in what language was all this discussion and negotiation with Cele taking place.
MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, when I ever spoke to him it would have been in English, but Mr Taylor spoke in Zulu.
CHAIRPERSON: And did you know that his conversation or his discussion or questioning of Cele was in Zulu?
MR WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: You didn't have the need for an interpreter.
MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, Mr Taylor spoke Zulu fluently, it was - he would have been handling that himself.
CHAIRPERSON: Have you any questions to ask of this witness?
MR NEL: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I've got none.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR NEL
MR VISSER: Perhaps I could answer your question straight away, Chairperson, before Ms Thabethe starts. The TRC Report, in volume 2 at page 131, places the date in July 1988. No closer than that. But we will still see whether we can find a closer date.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please.
MR VISSER: I seem to recall having read somewhere "6th of July", Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well you'll let us know. Have you any questions, Ms Thabethe?
MS THABETHE: Just a few, Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please do.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE: Thank you.
Actually, Mr Wasserman it's one question. How do you reconcile the evidence of Mr Botha and Vorster, that at no stage was Mr Cele assaulted and your evidence that he was assaulted by yourself in Swaziland and on the farm?
MR WASSERMAN: Well I never saw either of them ever assault him.
CHAIRPERSON: I think the question clearly is that it seems that they didn't see you assault him. In other words, there was no evidence of any assault as far as they were concerned, and you
have told us that you assaulted. And I think the question is now, are you in a position to reconcile the difference between your evidence and their evidence?
MR WASSERMAN: Oh, now I understand yes, Sir. The assault in Swaziland, I would hardly even say that was an assault, that was a matter of first of all securing the man there. Mr Vorster and Mr Botha weren't present in the farmhouse when I assault Dion Cele in the farmhouse. They were not present, so they would not know, Mr Chairman.
MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Chair, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR LAX: Just for the sake of clarity and for the record, Mr Botha did in fact say in his testimony that he does recall you
assaulting the deceased in the car, in the kombi when you were trying to subdue him at that point. So just for the record, he did say that in fact.
MR WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman.
MR LAX: Do you know what happened to the shell casings when you shot him?
MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, he would have been in the grave, I would have leant into the grave, I would imagine the "doppies" would have fallen into the grave.
MR LAX: But obviously you've no idea.
MR WASSERMAN: No, I have no idea. Perhaps they were lost in the exhumation, I don't know.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr Wasserman, just on the issue of the interrogation. On a question put to you by the Chairman, you responded that Mr Cele was fluent in Zulu. What interests me was were the other interrogators fluent in Zulu? Did he speak Zulu all the time?
MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, when I ever spoke to him he spoke to me in English. I think when Mr Vorster and Mr Botha spoke to him he spoke in English, but when he spoke with Mr Taylor the entire proceedings would have been in Zulu, and they were in Zulu in my presence.
ADV BOSMAN: Thank you. Thank you, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, you're excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: It's the appropriate time to take the adjournment. Mr Visser, we are going to adjourn for 45 minutes, we'll resume at a quarter to two.
MR NEL: Mr Chairperson, I wonder if I may ask for an indulgence till 2 o'clock, I have a problem that I have to rush back to the office because police headquarters have queried me and they would like an answer from me with regards to the queries of my further appearances on behalf of Col Taylor, before 3 o'clock this afternoon. I'm terribly sorry to put the Committee in this position, but I will be back at 2 o'clock if it is possible.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. We will not - you understand that you'll be proceeding on behalf of Col Taylor?
MR NEL: Mr Chairperson, the other applications, for instance the Thombi Khubeka matter, was orchestrated by Mr Taylor and in consultation with my learned colleagues here, they have felt and I have - well I have brought it to the police' attention that it might be of assistance if I do appear on his behalf.
CHAIRPERSON: Well we can't deal with an application for amnesty on behalf of somebody who is deceased.
MR NEL: I realise that.
CHAIRPERSON: So I think that should eliminate that problem.
MR NEL: Very well, Mr Chair, I'll be back at quarter to two.
CHAIRPERSON: But you can try, if you can be back at quarter to, we'll resume at a quarter to two.
MR NEL: Thank you, Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
