CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shane we’re ready for you.
MR SHANE: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman this is the application in respect of Victor Wanda Muchacho Mabaso or Ngoma Zulu. His application is contained on page 29 of the bundle Mr Chair. Pages 29 until 35.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shane, it would appear that most of the names are very similarly pronounced or spelled. I think for purposes of certainty, if you would be kind enough to mention the identity numbers of the applicants when they do come to give evidence. Yesterday’s applicant was Mbatha. Have you got his ID number?
MR SHANE: ...(inaudible)
CHAIRPERSON: And this one?
MR SHANE: Mr Chairman, maybe while we’re waiting, just for your information sir, in the supplement, additional supplement, supplement two, there appears further particulars, as well as copies of the correspondence, as well as the answers to that from the applicant in this instance, Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Which booklet is supplement to the blue one? Does it read application supplement on supplement one? The white one, supplement to.
MR SHANE: Page 58 to 66 Mr Chairman. 58 till 66.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Shane.
INTERPRETER: Chairperson this persons’s mike is not activated.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shane, your ...(intervention)
MR SHANE: I repeat the identity number
760210 0210 6333 087. Applicant advises me that in fact his age is wrongly reflected by this, he was actually born in 1974, but this is his identity number.
CHAIRPERSON: I suppose for identity purposes he’s stuck with that. Mr Mabaso, what language would you prefer to use?
MR MABASO: Zulu.
CHAIRPERSON: Have you any objections to the taking of the oath?
MR MABASO: No.
VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: (sworn, states)
CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated.
MR SHANE: Mr Chairman, the application by the applicant is in respect of two murders, the victims being Stephen Radebe, the same victim in respect of yesterday’s applicant Beki Khanyile, and Stephen Radebe. Also, Mr Chairman, although not mentioned in his application, he also applies for amnesty for the unlawful possession of weapons and ammunition. Quite clearly his possession of weapons and ammunition is mentioned in his application, and it was an oversight ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Where was that, that he mentions the possession?
MR SHANE: All I’m saying, he shoots with, sir when he shoots people he obviously possessed weapons.
CHAIRPERSON: Is it in respect of those weapons used in the murder for which he applies?
MR SHANE: That is correct, sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Fine.
MR SHANE: Also sir, when he patrolled as well, weapons were possessed, but these are not gross human rights violations, they ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: But like I said, where there’s a hearable matter we might as well deal with the lot. How many counts of unlawful possession of firearms is he applying for?
MR SHANE: Sir, it would be a general possession over a period of time. There was, he was in possession of weapons on several days, but he possessed weapons when these ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shane, the law as I understand it, would compel any criminal charge in respect of such possession. One is the unlawful possession of X number of firearms during the period so and so, and so and so, and second the unlawful possession of ammunition, so many rounds, whatever, during the period so and so, and so and so. I’m not going to be too sticky about that, but as you well know, the generality of offences is something that doesn’t fall within our ambit, rightly or wrongly.
MR SHANE: Mr Chairman, from statements of the applicant, and from my instructions, he possessed weapons over a period time. He cannot remember exactly how many different weapons he possessed, or the amounts of ammunition he possessed. There were times when he was handed weapons by other members of the SDU, for that period time he possessed, he ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shane, it is going to be pointless explaining ...(inaudible). Would it not be prudent for the purposes of the application then, to restrict the unlawful possession of firearms and ammunition to the incidents which have been identified and for which he actually applies for amnesty?
EXAMINATION BY MR SHANE: Yes sir, it would be, and we will restrict it to those acts.
Mr Mabaso, you are also known as Muchacho, is that correct?
MR MABASO: That is correct.
MR SHANE: And you were in fact the commander of the Self-Defence Unit at Tokoza.
MR MABASO: That is correct.
MR SHANE: You, as the commander you gave orders to other members and they carried out your orders. Is that correct?
MR MABASO: That is correct.
ADV GCABASHE: Let’s just be very clear about this Mr Shane. You were only a commander in Penduka, that is Tambo Slovo, not in the whole of Tokoza. Is that correct?
MR MABASO: That is correct.
MR SHANE: When you, let’s put it this way, were you the number one commander, in other words, in that section Penduka, you were in charge of the entire Self-Defence Unit. Is that correct?
MR MABASO: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you trained?
MR MABASO: No.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you given any instruction on how to command such a unit?
MR MABASO: No.
CHAIRPERSON: Who would give political leadership to the unit?
MR MABASO: We used to meet with the ANC which will be represented by Mr Duma Nkozi who is in parliament in Cape Town. This included Mr Louis Sibeko who is councillor at Greater Alberton. These are the people with whom we used to meet falling from different organisation.
ADV GCABASHE: They are, just to get this right again, they are the people who formed part of the overall committee that was guiding all the units in Tokoza. The central committee is what they called it, I think.
MR MABASO: Yes, there were other people and I think they are part of these applications. Maybe I cannot remember them all now.
MR SIBANYONI: You spoke about the councillor, I didn’t get the name. Who is this second name?
MR MABASO: Louis Sibeko is the name. Louis Sibeko.
CHAIRPERSON: So it’s Louis Sibeko, Duma Nkosi, and?
MR MABASO: Shall I give you all the names?
ADV GCABASHE: All the ones you remember, yes.
MR MABASO: Bonga Nkosi, Lucky Siyephe, Blamoses Kupeka, Dumnisani Mbatha, Meneer Ngcubi. I cannot remember the others, but they are part of this submission.
MR SHANE: Now, when did you join the Self-Defence Unit?
MR MABASO: Between 1991 and 1992.
MR SHANE: And when did you join the African National Congress?
MR MABASO: In 1990. But I used to follow the ANC before 1990, but then I joined in 1990 after the unbanning of the armed struggle.
MR SHANE: Did you live in Penduka section, with your family?
MR MABASO: Yes, I used to reside there, at Khumalo Street.
MR SHANE: What happened to your family’s home?
MR MABASO: The house was occupied by Inkatha people. Before the occupation they actually attacked the house in my absence. I had fled to another area resulting from my SDU activities. They attacked the house and killed four people. My grandmother, my grandfather, my brother, as well as my sister. Am I correct? It’s my grandmother, my grandfather, my mother, my brother, and two of them got injured. One of these two injured was a neighbour and he’s confined to a wheelchair as I speak.
MR SHANE: And you knew that this attack was carried out by Inkatha Freedom Party members. Is that correct?
MR MABASO: Yes, I knew, because Inkatha wanted me, and they had been seeking me for a very long time. They wanted me to join so that I can be part of amabuto. We were still young at the time so I knew that the attack on the homestead was actually aimed at myself. I am the one who was targeted. I had fled at the time.
MR SHANE: Now, regarding the killing of Stephen Radebe. Is it correct that before the ANC was unbanned, and during the 1980's, this person Stephen Radebe was known to you?
MR MABASO: Yes, I knew him, but I didn’t know him for the 80's. I started knowing him from the 90's when we started getting involved in politics, following different organisations. That’s when I started to know him insofar as his membership or affiliation. He’s also one person with whom we played dice, and the grounds, we were playing soccer. I knew what he was doing, or about what he was doing, for a long time.
MR SHANE: When you say you knew what he was doing, what do you mean? What was he doing? What are you referring to?
MR MABASO: First of all, he was a member of Inkatha. Secondly, he was an inyanga of Inkatha, and an informer of Inkatha. And he’s one person who used to provide them with ‘ntelesi’ on their attacking sprees or going out to shoot a person. Equally he was trusted, loyal to Inkatha in this, and what I can say, one thing that I still remember, something that happened, something that I witnessed, he cut somebody’s private parts, a person who was alleged to be an Ikosa who had alighted from a taxi, and he cut his private parts after he was shot. That is one thing that I witnessed him doing. He also used to give them ‘ntelezi’ when they went out to attack Polla Park.
CHAIRPERSON: What is ntelezi?
MR MABASO: Ntelezi is a medicine, a kind of medicine that one would use going out to attack, so that the targets should get drunk and not see what’s happening, and to protect oneself against bullets in a war situation, and one would easily come back safe.
MR SHANE: Is it also correct that you, or they tried to, or including Stephen, tried to get you, force you to join the Inkatha Freedom Party?
MR MABASO: Not myself alone. He was not forcing us, but when we were playing soccer or dice at Madondo park, at Penduka, he used to convince us, and in our case it was not easy for us to defend the ANC or ANC/PAC. We would keep quiet most of the time, and he used to involve Inkatha in his topics, saying how Inkatha can help people in whatever was happening, but then he was not compelling us, he was trying to influence us to attend meetings.
MR SHANE: Is it correct that the deceased ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Why do you think that the Inkatha Freedom Party was so interested in obtaining your membership? Where would they have got the information that you would be an appropriate member?
MR MABASO: It was not only myself. There is also the situation where any person who resided there, it was not only myself. Any one boy who resided at Penduka was sometimes forced. Some of them were sjambokked and beaten up with knobkerries, forced to attend meetings and mornings, and we would escape by way of staying indoors, and we would be beaten up. The one thing that they wanted, was that we should defend Ngcala in case it is attacked. That is Ngcala or Polla Park. They wanted us to take the forefront in the defence of these two areas. There is also many other amaZulu who had come from Natal, who were recruiting us. Some of them came to us with promises that we should shoot, Inkatha, they would give us firearms. And one other thing is that I stayed opposite the hostel gate, and therefore it was easy for us to, or easy for them to see whatever move we were making.
CHAIRPERSON: I appreciate your modesty, but it would appear that they took special interest in you. You yourself associate the attack on your family home to their quest to acquire your membership. Where would they have found out that you would be a prized member? Who would have told them that? That Mr Mabaso is a good person to get as a member. Who do you think?
MR MABASO: I have no knowledge for now, but they got information from their informers to the effect that we have an AK, and that we were planning to defend the community against Inkatha, because Inkatha had already harassed people quite a lot, and we were working, or coming across dead bodies every day. Young children were no longer scared of dead corpses or dead bodies. Maybe they managed to get information to that effect, because I was active insofar as gathering money is concerned, to buy AK-47.
MR SIBANYONI: So when they attacked your family house, you were already a member of the MK?
MR MABASO: Not exactly the MK. I’m talking about SDU’s. I was a member of the SDU’s. I was a year old within the SDU and I was no longer residing at the homestead, I had moved, but my parents had remained behind. And the parents, or should I say the boys in that area, most of them had left that area.
MR SHANE: Are you a Zulu?
MR MABASO: Yes.
MR SHANE: That factor that you’re a Zulu, that would have made you acceptable to the Inkatha Freedom Party because that was primarily at that time a Zulu organisation.
MR MABASO: Yes, I would say it is an organisation of amaZulu, but then there are many people who are amaZulu who did not join the IFP. They actually wanted us to join the IFP because we were boys and we were the youth. They thought it would be easy for us to get hold of AK-47's to defend the IFP. My being an umZulu insofar as the TRC is concerned, I would say we are divided into two. We have amaZulu A and amaZulu B. There are those who come from Natal who are referred to amaZulu A, and we from the township are referred to as amaZulu who are not in line with them. There is a difference.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) the amaZulu B?
MR MABASO: Yes, insofar as this whole thing is concerned we are amaZulu B because we speak a different isiZulu. It is different from that of a person who comes from Durban, Umlazi or Natal.
MR SHANE: Now, can you explain the circumstances which led to the killing, or the murder, of Stephen Radebe.
MR MABASO: As I have already indicated that everyone knew that Stephen is involved somewhere. Let me just confine myself to Stephen. Everybody knew what Stephen was. We were at, or in the office one evening having supper with others who patrolled. Myself as in charge of, issued an order to the effect that he should be fetched, so that he could be questioned about his activities as to where he stands, because we were not sure of his stance. We have different departments and we also had our own intelligence department which would take care of anything pertaining to intelligence. I’m sorry, are we talking about Stephen or Beki?
MR SHANE: We’re talking about Stephen Radebe.
MR MABASO: Yes, Stephen Radebe was then fetched. I issued an order to some of our comrades to the effect that they should fetch him up, fetch him, bring him so that we could question him about his activities, and try to get the reasons thereof. We brought him to office that is based at Nkosi Street. Some of our fellow comrades left, I think 20 of us remained, and other were still outside eating. The time was about the patrol time of the evening.
We asked him about things that we knew he was doing, and he admitted, you know, our brother admitted even to the cutting of private parts, and something else that he did, that I did not know, he said that he was involved in an attack at Polla Park in 1991, where four people died. He said he too was involved, giving the, ‘ntelezi’. In other words he agreed or admitted to many things that he did within the IFP and lastly he ended up saying that we should forgive him because he did not know what he was doing, and he apologised to us that he is an Inkatha IFP and we are ANC people and he knew that we are going to kill him, he wanted us to forgive him. Unfortunately, everybody who was present whether it was a mother or a woman or an older person, they would have killed him because they were doing many things and we were seeing these things happening as a community at Penduka. I as a commander of Slovo did not have a choice, I therefore had to issue an order to the effect that he should be killed.
We took him and we brought along an AK-47 and a handgun. We went to Nkatiswe grounds. One of our comrades shot at him and I too shot him. I am the one who issued the order. I partook in his killing.
MR SHANE: Who else partook in his killing? Who are the comrades that you are referring to, that took part in the killing?
MR MABASO: Mzwake, Ernest Buthelezi, he is the one with whom I was involved in this matter.
MR SHANE: And did he also fire shots at Stephen?
MR MABASO: Yes, he too fired shots, and I later fired shots.
MR SHANE: You, what kind of weapon did you use?
MR MABASO: A palm gun.
MR SHANE: And where did you get that weapon from?
MR MABASO: We used to purchase these firearms from Polla Park, and Vosloo was at a shelter. We used to buy them from there, bring them to the township for use. I cannot be certain as to where these two firearms we were using came from.
MR SHANE: Were these firearms stored in your, in the house which you called the office?
MR MABASO: Some of these firearms were kept at the office, so that in case there is an attack from behind where the office was. You see most of the time the Inkatha people did not come on their own. They would be delivered by Caspirs so that most of the time it would happen that there would be killings at or behind us where we were not observant. So that we wanted to have a situation where we could easily prevent such attacks from happening, and I used to order that each one of our people have their firearms within their group. I had seven groups. All of these groups had their own firearms, or should I say there was one firearm per group.
MR SHANE: And obviously none of your comrades had licences to possess these weapons.
MR MABASO: No, no-one had a licence except for our chairman who had a licensed 357. He’s the only one I knew to have been having a licence. He used to say to us that in case we lose one of our comrades and we had to bury him, he used to use that firearm where we were burying some of our comrades. He used it for gun salutes during funerals.
MR SHANE: Who was this person?
MR MABASO: I only know his surname. Mr Mazibuko.
MR SHANE: Were you the first person to shoot Stephen Radebe, or ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Does it matter?
MR SHANE: Actually not Mr Chairman. Now, what happened after Stephen Radebe was shot? What happened, do you know what happened to his body? Do you have any knowledge? What did you do after the shooting?
MR MABASO: We shot him and then we departed to - We left and we took these firearms back for storage. I think we stored them three houses away from the office, so that I had to issue out orders for patrols. We continued with the patrols, and the following day on observation I noticed that there were people who were sitting around the dead person. In our cases black people, in the event of a person dying, the family would come and sit around the dead body. And I noticed that these are the people who are so-called Umdwembe. We used to use this name referring to Inkatha people, so that we could easily identify them if, in case we came across them. I asked them questions, they didn’t answer me, they cried instead, and I left.
MR SHANE: Now Stephen, as you said, Stephen Radebe was a person known to you who used to take part in recreational activities with you, like playing dice, as you said. Did you know any members of his family?
MR MABASO: No. I don’t know a single member of his family.
MR SHANE: Now we are dealing with the other murder that you’ve applied for amnesty, that is Beki Khanyile. Is this the same person that Vusi Mbatha murdered and applied for amnesty yesterday? Are we referring to the same deceased?
MR MABASO: Yes, that is correct.
MR SHANE: And is it correct that this person Beki Khanyile was murdered on the same day as Stephen Radebe was murdered?
MR MABASO: That’s correct. Beki Khanyile was the first one to be killed.
MR SHANE: Can you please explain the circumstances as to how he was murdered.
MR MABASO: It is the same with Stephen. I’ve indicated that I was, that I was on patrol. It was supper time. Other had to have their supper, and others were expected to go on patrol whilst others were having supper. We all knew him. We all knew them. Everybody and old women and aged women and old men and everybody knew these people, knew their activities. I came back to the office. I was in charge of the entire operation and I suggested that he too, or should I say Beki, should be fetched, himself being the first one. And the intention with reference to Beki was that we wanted to ask him questions and use him for our intelligence at the same time. We wanted to use him after he had given us all the information. He was involved in so many things. Things that we did not know, and he told us about those things that day. And as I, we were asking him, I said to him, if he tells the truth I will make sure that nothing befalls him. I knew Beki being a hit squad driver, around...(indistinct) in 1990 right up to 1993. Beki then confessed to the incident of the 18th August 1990 in Polla Park where 12 people died. He was a driver during that incident, and he also referred to the Sam Ntuli incident who was chairperson of the Tokoza branch of the civic association, Sam who was killed. Beki also confessed that he was involved when the memorial service was attended on Thursday people were about to go past the hostel. You had to go through three hostels to reach Sam Ntuli’s house, and people had to go back to their house to toyi toyi to pay their last respects before the funeral. 12 people died on that day and he was part of helping others. Beki was therefore the driver of the hit squad that was operational that day. And he also referred to incidents where Nthabazimbi tavern was attacked or a tavern at Nthabazimbi was attacked. One of the people who were victims of the attack is confined to a wheelchair, but then importantly it was the driver of the hit squad members. And I also observed a number of things apart from this evidence. And these things were hurting, touching to the heart, because I could have easily said he should go back and serve as an intelligence but that was not an appropriate idea at that time. I therefore had no choice so that I issued an order that he be killed.
MR SHANE: The civic leader that you called Sam, that is in fact the late Sam Ntuli, is that correct?
MR MABASO: Yes, that is correct.
MR SHANE: Right, and after apologising, saying he’s sorry, you, what did you feel?
MR MABASO: Yes he apologised profusely. I was supposed to be sensitive towards his apology, but because we had been harassed and we had suffered a lot, so that we no longer had mercy, we no longer cared, we no longer cared about everything, we had lost heart. And anybody who was operating within the IFP could not have survived, and therefore I issued this order after his plea. He cried pleading with us, but then because of the things that he did, remembering the many people who died on Sam Ntuli’s memorial service, these were old people who were shot simply because they were wearing Mandela T-shirts.
CHAIRPERSON: You say that you knew what the history of both these deceased’s were, or was. Correct?
MR MABASO: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: You knew that they were IFP activists that are getting up to all this nonsense.
MR MABASO: Yes, fully.
CHAIRPERSON: What was the purpose of speaking to them, getting them to admit issues, things?
MR MABASO: That was the procedure. A person had to be questioned first. Given, to be given an opportunity to speak for himself. We didn’t want to do something and only later on discover that we were wrong. We wanted to make sure which organisation a person belonged to in terms of membership cards and things like that. These people used to go around carrying membership cards of their organisations, and some of the cards that we used to come along in the houses were IFP cards. We then asked him questions. We also asked him questions because he was a township boy. He didn’t come from Natal or Transkei, or an outside area. He was a person from Gauteng, a township boy. We therefore had to give him a chance.
CHAIRPERSON: What would have happened had he said, no, what you’re suggesting, or what he’s being accused of, is not true?
MR MABASO: May the question please be repeated.
CHAIRPERSON: What would have happened had, during that interrogation, either or both of these victims denied what was being said to them?
MR MABASO: I would have no choice if they denied everything, or should I say, if they denied everything and yet I knew certain things, I would issue an order to the effect that we should forgive them but use them later on. They should stick to Inkatha and only SDU members should know that we have our own intelligence within Inkatha. So that it transpired that they admitted their involvement and they admitted to these because they knew we grew up together and they knew what they were doing, and that is why I am saying that I did not have a choice. They cried very sadly, apologising profusely.
MR SHANE: Now, can you explain how, what happened regarding the actual killing of Beki? He was taken somewhere. Will you tell the whole story of how he died.
MR MABASO: He was shot. It’s six years ago, I cannot remember who shot first between myself Mzwake and Bashin, but we all shot. We all fired shots and we left him there. On the following morning on coming back from patrol he had been burned. We don’t know who burned him, but it was known in the township, even ‘though the order was not issued, it was known that he was an IFP member, in the event of his death he should be burned. I don’t know who burned him. I was busy doing something else, but yes, he was burned.
MR SHANE: At which place was he actually killed? Can you give a description?
MR MABASO: It was between Makazile and Katizwe. There is a veld in that area. It is not a long distance from the office and he was walking freely. Even if somebody could come across us one would not have noticed that somebody was under guard. He was walking freely right up to the spot where he was shot, but then I am not quite sure who fired the first shot, but yes, three of us shot, using, fired shots using AK-47.
MR SHANE: Did all three of you use the same weapon, or did you have, each of you have your own weapons?
MR MABASO: Some of the other firearms had been stored for later patrols. The one firearm that we used was the one that used to be kept at the office. We used the same firearm.
MR SHANE: Can you remember how many shots you actually fired?
MR MABASO: Plus minus two times.
MR SHANE: At what part of the body?
MR MABASO: I cannot recall, because he had been lying down at the time trying to stand up. He was quite a strong person. He tried to rise after he had been shot. It could have been the foot or the hand, I am not sure.
MR SHANE: Did you know members, any members of Beki’s family?
MR MABASO: The one person I knew was his father. I can say I know one member of the family, but I do not know the name. However I can identify the person, they used to own a dry cleaning at Madondo. It’s quite an old store but I do not remember everything. I can tell a family member. I am quite sure of the father, ‘though I’m not sure whether its the father or the grandfather.
MR SHANE: Were there any other actions, illegal actions besides that what you’ve mentioned now, that you took part in?
CHAIRPERSON: Before you answer that question. Are you ...(inaudible)
INTERPRETER: May the question please be repeated.
CHAIRPERSON: Before it’s repeated I’m asking Mr Shane, are you quite sure what answer you’re going to get.
MR SHANE: Sir we have discussed it. It would have been, it would be of a general nature, general defence, but we’ve actually dealt with that, the possession of the weapons, everything relates to these acts.
CHAIRPERSON: You see, if you get an answer for which application for amnesty has not been made, or cannot some way be covered by what has been submitted, then we can’t deal with it. And I may as well add that I think you sufficiently dealt with the generality of his status as commander of that unit.
MR SHANE: Thank you sir. Have you got anything that you wish to say to the families of both deceaseds’, Stephen and Beki?
MR MABASO: Yes. What I can say is this. Because of the apartheid regime in those times we were led to fight as black people. We killed ourselves, whereas there were other people who had infiltrated the black communities, ‘though we are not sure whether there was third force involved or something else, but I hope now during this new dispensation people will not be used to kill their own people. I would like to apologise to the parents of the two gentlemen where, of which I was involved in the killings. I apologise. I also want to apologise to the committee that is here, but I was forced to do whatever, because of the situation, and my parents also died and I don’t know their killers but I knew very well that the Inkatha people have killed them. I was forced, it’s not that I was taken by anger to the Khanyile families and the others, the apology is coming from the bottom of my heart. I hope this will never happen again, ‘though I knew very well that the elections are coming because all this happened just after Chris Hani’s death and just before the elections. But I hope such things will never happen again. I’ll try to avoid such things as the former commander if I see that there are some attacks that are imminent. If Beki’s family is here I would like to apologise ‘though I fail to go to their house and apologise. I did not know what their response would be. I want to apologise again and I hope that even the Truth Commission would forward my request to the family of Stephen and Beki.
My request is this, I don’t know what to say at the moment, but the major thing is I would like to be granted amnesty as a person who confessed.
I know that no-one knew what happened except the members of the SDU. No-one knew that we killed Stephen. We used to cover up for one another and knew very well that even the Commission, the Committee and the police wouldn’t know about that incident because we used to cover up for one another. I would like to be granted amnesty because that was not my intention to be involved in that war, but I was trying to protect the community that I loved so much. I apologise deeply. Thank you.
MR SHANE: That is the evidence, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHANE
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steenkamp?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.
Sir, my question to you is, did you discuss the questioning and the possible killing, of both Mr Radebe and Mr Khanyile, with any of the political leadership before they were killed? The people you mentioned. Please like Mr Duma Nkosi, Louis Sibeko, Mr Sieyephe, Ms Ngubu, Mr Mbatha. Do you understand the question?
MR MABASO: Yes, I understand the question. We did not discuss that. I want to explain this clearly. We used to meet with de Marcos and the others for development and get advise from them so that we can get guidelines as to use. They were not that much involved in killing, because if they were there they would try and stop us. We did not discuss that matter. According to the plan, Beki was going to be killed, whether he was questioned or not, but he was going to be killed. But because of the situation I just decided that Beki should be questioned. If I, he was going to be killed without any interview, but I decided that this is a good thing to question him and he also gave us his views, he told us about his views, and he apologised. I’m not sure if you are satisfied about, I’m not sure if you are satisfied with that answer.
ADV STEENKAMP: My question basically is, are you then saying that none of these people were aware, whatsoever, about the decision you took, am I right?
MR MABASO: Yes, they knew nothing. There is what is called a sectional command that was under our leadership. We used to meet on Tuesdays to report the problems that we are experiencing. Not about the people who are to be attacked or the people who are to be killed or informers. In other words the central command knew nothing about that ‘cause central command wouldn’t issue orders to kill people. They wouldn’t issue such orders. They were just there to maintain the SDU’s to make the point that everything is in order. People like de Marcos were in the ANC and other people were in ASACP and the ANC youth league. All the shareholders would be present in the meeting just to handle the SDU’s to make it a point that they were disciplined and they were in line with the objectives. In the central command we were to discuss about how to handle the criminals, because we had problems that were brought by the criminals, so we wanted to removed them from the communities and SDU’s.
ADV STEENKAMP: Can you just indicate to us, who were the people you sent to fetch Mr Radebe and Mr Khanyile, for the questioning? Can you tell us who these people were?
MR MABASO: There were more than 20 or 25. I can try and count the others ...(indistinct).
ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STEENKAMP
ADV GCABASHE: Mr Mabaso, Beki and Stephen, where did you find them, in relation to where they lived. You can deal with one and then with the other one.
MR MABASO: I was not present when they were first, I don’t know where were they, but I’m sure that they were not at the same place because the first one to be first was Beki and the second one was Stephen. I was not there in the group of people who went to get them. But as the commander I used to issue orders. I don’t know where they were first but all I know is there was first somewhere and they were brought to the office.
ADV GCABASHE: Where were you expecting them to be found, when you gave that order?
MR MABASO: I had some information that Beki Khanyile as at Xhaba Street. We went to Txhaba for the first time, he wasn’t there. I issued another order in December, a month after the first visit, and I told the other comrades that we have to keep quiet, keep a low profile, so that he doesn’t suspect anything. We waited for a month, I think it was December when he was fetched for the second time. He was visited for the second time.
MR SHANE: Excuse me Mr Chairman, I’ve a request from the applicant the call of nature. He asks for a short adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: (s.u.o.)
MR SHANE: Mr Chairman there was, I think learned ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Is your client okay now?
MR SHANE: He’s fine thank you sir.
ADV GCABASHE: Thank you. Thank you Chair. We were talking about Beki and Stephen, and you had indicated in your testimony that they were killed on the same day. Who was fetched or brought to you first, is one question?
MR MABASO: Beki Khanyile was the first one.
ADV GCABASHE: Then Beki was killed. Stephen was brought on the same day at a later time. Is this what your evidence is?
MR MABASO: Yes, that took place after 20 to 30 minutes, Stephen was fetched.
ADV GCABASHE: Was he fetched by the same group of SDU members, the same group that had fetched Beki?
MR MABASO: I’m not clear about that one. Maybe there was, there were more or less than the first group. I think there were more when they went to fetch Stephen.
ADV GCABASHE: Thank you. Thank you chair.
MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson. You said you took, in fact there were two weapons, an AK-47 and a palm gun. Did I understand you correctly?
MR MABASO: Yes.
MR SIBANYONI: Now, at the killing, which weapon was used?
MR MABASO: An AK-47 was used to kill Beki, and the second killing both weapons were used.
MR SIBANYONI: Now amongst the people who fetched Khanyile and Beki, are there any who are your co-applicants today?
MR MABASO: There is one of them that I was with during the killing. There are some of them here in this hall but some of us, some of them, are dead now.
MR SIBANYONI: Who are here? Who are still here, who are still alive?
MR MABASO: Its’ Mzwake, Telesi, Fana Makembeni, Fana Tshabango Makembeni, Jabi Macubu, Kenneth Masoga, Moses Ngcani, Sitingosi, Mandla Lukele.
MR SIBANYONI: Now how did it happen - We heard that they were taken to the house which was used as an office. Were both of them taken to that house first, before they were taken to the veld?
MR MABASO: As I’ve already explained we first do, we fetched the first one and we dealt with him. We went to fetch the second one. They were not fetched at the same time, but that happened during the same night.
MR SIBANYONI: Yes what I want to know were they, each one of them, taken to the same house before taken to the veld?
MR MABASO: Yes, that is true. They were taken to the same house and the reason for that I can say where we were so clever, just before killing the person, just before taking any action we had to question the person. We wouldn’t just, we wouldn’t kill randomly, we would use our brains and follow the right procedures. That is why both of them were brought to 1037 Khosa Street.
MR SIBANYONI: Now after Khanyile was killed, and while Radebe was going to be fetched, where did you wait, you personally?
MR MABASO: In the office. I was busy having my supper. It was time for patrolling so I was having my supper in that house number 1037.
MR SIBANYONI: Lastly, I heard you saying, because everyone knew what Khanyile did, if you didn’t issue an order people would be angry with you. Were you the only person who should issue the order to kill?
MR MABASO: In the commanding structure of Tambo Slovo there’s two of us. I was a chief commander. The person who is supposed to issue an order is myself. As I said, if I did not issue that order perhaps today I would be killed, I will be dead today instead of him. I was forced to issue an order because of his activities, things that he was involved in and my position also obliged me to issue an order. And if there were no other leader, if there were no leaders maybe he wouldn’t be questioned to, anything would just be done, that is why I was the commander.
MR SIBANYONI: You said you are two. Who is the other one?
MR MABASO: Moses Blangobesi. He was not present on that particular day.
MR SIBANYONI: What is his rank compared to your position, being the highest one?
MR MABASO: Tambo Slovo is composed of two sections, Tambo and Slovo were under Penduka section because they were in Penduka. That other person was a leader of Tambo section, was a leader of Tambo but we were combined, we were one, and we would command because we were under the commanding structure. If he issues a command during my absence he reports that, he would report that to me, and I would do the same.
MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: You said Stephen was an informer. That was one of the problems you had with him.
MR MABASO: Yes, he was an informer. He was also an inyanga, that was protecting the Inkatha impis.
CHAIRPERSON: To whom would he report his information?
MR MABASO: David Mazibuko was one of them but he had a lot of people that he used to report to but the person that I knew that we used to play dice with was David Mazibuko who was later involved and he was the cause of the people’s displacement at Penduka and he is the one that wrote the people letters to vacate Penduka within seven days so that they could take over and occupy the houses and take their furnitures. Even David Mazibuko had his own leaders, but I don’t know them.
CHAIRPERSON: Maybe I don’t understand, you say - You see, as I understand your evidence, Stephen informed somebody, some group, or some party, or some institution, about other people. I just want to find out what the nature of his information would be, and to whom he would make such reports about other people.
MR MABASO: He used to report to David Mazibuko. That’s the one that I know who was Inkatha, who is Inkatha youth brigade now, and things that I know, I remember he used to confess about our meetings as youth from Tambo section, before displacement, as we wanted to form the SDU’s and in order to get, or to purchase AK-47. The information leaked and we had to held the meeting at different venues, and the intelligence of the SDU’s, there three departments in the SDU’s we had the department of intelligence and the logistics and other department. Stephen used to forward such information and the comrades to be attacked. One gentleman died through Stephen’s information. The gentlemen was from Selby Street but I cannot remember his name but I think the other comrades can remember his name.
CHAIRPERSON: You, from your evidence it seems to me that there is brought into sharp focus the issue of cultures, as followed by what is known as Zulu people and what is known as Xhosa people. Do I understand you correctly?
MR MABASO: I do not understand you.
CHAIRPERSON: When you testified, it seems to me that you were talking about Zulu people from Natal and elsewhere, and those that I assume are not Zulu people, for example Xhosa, there are differences and during these fights that issue was brought into sharp focus. Did I understand you correctly?
MR MABASO: I do not understand. I understand about the Zulus coming from Natal, but I do not understand the other parts of your question. Will you please explain further.
CHAIRPERSON: Why was it important that Zulu people, as it was put to you and I assume it was your instructions therefore, that Zulu people were attached to the IFP? Or so it was perceived.
MR MABASO: After Mandela’s release from prison there was a fight in Tokoza, the Zulus were fighting the Xhosas. They wouldn’t kill anyone else, they would only kill the Xhosas. And the people who was not a Zulu in the Xhosa community would be killed. The fight started there between the Xhosas and Zulus up to a certain stage whereby the IFP and ANC then the Zulus were falling under the IFP because they were residing at the hostels and I believe that there were other Zulus who were against the IFP but for the fact that they were staying at the hostel and everyone in the hostel nationwide would be regarded as an IFP member. So people would be forced to fall under IFP as long as they were staying in the hostels.
CHAIRPERSON: Now that’s what I was referring to. Now coupled with that, during the last section of your testimony, you also expressed the hope that we as black people should not repeat what has happened again, and fight with each other, kill each other. Did I understand you correctly?
MR MABASO: Yes, you understood me correctly, that is what I said because the reason for the war was the apartheid regime. I’m also happy that I contribute to the new South Africa against the apartheid. I mean if I didn’t contribute even you Mr Pillay were not sitting there, but I’m sorry for the family of Stephen and Beki, for harm them, but I’m not feeling sorry for defending the country and defending the people of this country contributing to the apartheid, so thanks for that.
CHAIRPERSON: Did I understand you correctly, you were saying as I understand your evidence, that our people should not allow themselves to be used with all these dirty tricks again?
MR MABASO: Yes, they are not supposed to allow that, they are not supposed to be used but I think because of the situation and poverty that was prevailing at the time and the unemployment that was so high, if you promise a black person, a person money he can do anything, but I think the people who were involved in the fight we can try and prevent that kind of a situation, but I don’t know how will we prevent that if there is a fire I’m involved. But I don’t think it is a wise idea for me to go and purchase an AK-47 in order to kill people because we are in the, a new, I beg your pardon the government of national unity in the new South Africa.
CHAIRPERSON: You see you, we’re coming to elections again very soon. Do you think it’s wise for our people not to have learned from what has happened before, and so thereby allow themselves to be bought over to create all these things?
MR MABASO: The issue of the election is two fold. First of all the violence started before, long before the elections, and it went on and on after the announcement of elections, after the date the 27th of April was mentioned. That is when the people got the opportunity to use the people to kill the larger population who were to partake during the registration. Perhaps now such things will not happen because some of the people were worried that they will lose power and they were worried that the black people were there to defend their own country and win back the power. Because of the situation that has happened now, the situation that is brought about this new government and ANC has done a lot of things I think it’s the people who were used they’ve got their own jobs now, they are working now, it won’t be easy for violence to be used again. I’m not sure about Tokoza but I think the registration process is on right now and even the no-go areas are no longer like that. I went to register at Madondo where the place used to be a no-go area. I don’t feel free if I walk there, but I went there for registration that I’m prepared to contribute in trying to prevent violence.
CHAIRPERSON: Now in your evidence also you are saying that some of these firearms that were used in your activities were purchased in Polla Park. Surely these were not recognised dealers in firearms? This was gun running, not so?
MR MABASO: Yes that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, is this still available, this facility? To buy guns illegally. I tell you why I ask and maybe you must consider your answer in the context of your other answer, where you said in those days, and I can understand why that was so, that offences committed by certain people were covered up by the community. Now if there is gun running today, this policy of covering up, would that still be in place in respect of illegal gun running?
MR MABASO: I don’t think so. I don’t think the community would do such cover ups like before, because I have been using a firearm for several years and I was never arrested because the community used to cover up and the SDU’s would do the same. I’m not sure that the firearms, the gun running, is still existing, but the way I see things, the Mozambique border is always on guard and the guns would be coming from Mozambique. I think there is some reduction now in the gun running of, in that gun running. It’s only the people who use them, but as former SDU members we don’t think that it is a good idea for us to purchase firearms because there is no need for that we’ve got police, community policing forum and the community ...(indistinct) that was established out of the SDU’s and it’s dealing with stability in the communities. If there were such facilities they would find out. We also as a community we help the police to arrest the criminals in the community. I’m not sure if that facility is still available.
CHAIRPERSON: One last aspect I want to cover with you. It is perhaps a sensitive issue, but I need to know what your attitude would be. When you killed these two deceased, how did you feel yourself?
MR MABASO: As I’ve already explained that the heart, I did not have the heart. I felt nothing. I was not even guilty. Whatever I feel it’s now I’m thinking for Beki’s family and Stephen because they have lost I had lost and I know there’s always a gap when someone dies but at that time I did not have a problem. If it was possible I would kill even ten people because I did not have a heart at that time. I was hurt because of my parents that were killed. I did not have a heart. I was going to do whatever so as to protect myself.
CHAIRPERSON: I understand that maybe at the time you were acting as a soldier, or something like a soldier, but even soldiers sometimes, long time after the incident, are affected by it, and maybe need help, and many people have gone through it. I’m asking you are you one of those that can handle it, or what is the position, or do you know of any other people who perhaps need assistance?
MR MABASO: I think there are people who need assistance, things like counselling for a lot of things. I do not have a problem as a person. I don’t have nightmares, I have nothing, because I am sure that what I did, I know very well that it’s not a good thing to kill, God is against that, but I know that God his hand was on my side, that is why I don’t have a problem. I can cope today, that I think I need some counselling. I might think that I need no counselling now, but I later realise that I am not coping. I might think that I’m coping but I know that other people do need counselling because they used to see dogs feeding on dead bodies and they used to see a lot of dead bodies. Dead bodies, as a human being that has got a serious effect.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shane have you got any questions?
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SHANE: Just one last aspect Mr Chairman. Can you remember the 10th of May 1997, that was the day of the deadline for filing your application for amnesty. Do you remember that day?
MR MABASO: Yes that was the deadline. That was the day when I filled, when we filled in the forms. The SDU’s from Tambo and Slovo section.
MR SHANE: Where did you fill in your forms?
MR MABASO: That was at Mapanzela Primary School on a Saturday.
MR SHANE: Was it yourself and numerous other members of SDU’s together completing forms?
MR MABASO: Yes, all the SDU members who were involved in offences that took place before, all of us were there filling in the forms, and we were divided according to incidents, according to separate incidents.
MR SHANE: Were you assisted in this by officials from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission?
MR MABASO: Yes, we were assisted. We were assisted and I would like to thank the people who gave us that assistance and even today they are still helping us.
MR SHANE: Now, you have already told the learned Commissioners that Mzwake Buthelezi was involved in the two murders for which you’ve applied for amnesty.
MR MABASO: Yes, in this two cases that I’ve mentioned ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Was he there when you people were filling in forms?
MR MABASO: Yes, he was sitting next to me and three of us filled in the forms. It was myself, Vushi Basinbata and Mzwake Ernest Buthelezi.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shane there are issues relating to two other people, now I don’t know their names. Will you file a similar question in respect of those two names?
MR SHANE: Certainly, besides Mzwake, or let’s dealing with Mzwake first. You saw him filling in a form, is that correct?
MR MABASO: Yes, I saw him, because we were advising each other, reminding ourselves, reminding one another about the incidents. We were discussing and I saw him, I’m a witness to that he filled in the form, he applied for amnesty. And I’m the one who went to fetch him where he was, I wanted him to come and apply for amnesty. He knew nothing about this process. I explained everything to him and on Saturday we filled in the forms.
MR SHANE: And do you know what happened to your form after you filled in your application? Who did you give it to?
CHAIRPERSON: I don’t know if he is able to say how those forms were processed afterwards. Let’s get onto those other two names summarily.
MR SHANE: Mr Chairman I am also unaware of the other names that - We won’t, ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Irrelevant, okay.
MR SHANE: If I can leave it at that, sir.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHANE
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steenkamp maybe you can ask those questions.
ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman as far as I am concerned, and I will beg leave maybe if I’m just waiting for some detail regarding the other two applicants. As far as I understand they’re not directly involved in the specific incident. I doubt very strongly if this applicant will be able to tell us, but if you will allow me just one second I will just get the correct details of these applicants. Thank you Mr Chairman.
Mr Chairman the position as far as I understand is that there was an application form, or two application forms, missing. The one application form apparently is from this applicant. I’m not aware if my learned colleague is aware of that. I take it that can be sorted out and taken care by himself. The other application form is the application form of the applicant who was stood down yesterday Mr Chairman, it was Mr Victor Mbatha. It was different Mbatha Mr Chairman but it seems that there are no people who are available here whose applications are missing. It’s just the question of application forms, they filled in more than one application form. But what I suggest Mr Chairman, we’ll get the correct details the ...(indistinct) stood down. I’m informed that this applicant will not be able to assist us in that regard. Thank you Mr Chairman.
ADV STEENKAMP: I’ve nothing further for this applicant Mr Chairman, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: I hope by lunchtime those we are complaining about these things are able to give us proper information. We’re not here to trace things. I’m going to adjourn for 10 minutes for that purpose, before we excuse this witness.
ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
MR SHANE: Thank you Mr Chairman, insofar as this applicant before you, there is nothing further that we, that is his case, thank you sir.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHANE
CHAIRPERSON: And no further applications?
MR SHANE: No further applications Mr Chairman. In the circumstances I would ask the Commission to excuse this applicant, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mabaso you’re excused. Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
