Amnesty Hearings

ON RESUMPTION

MR SHANE: My first applicant is Mr Solomon Dlamini, his application appears on page 8. The application number is AM7134/97.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got an identity number for us?

MR SHANE: Mr Chairman, the applicant has an identity document, but it is at home at the present moment, with your permission I beg leave that we submit the identity document on Monday.

He confirms that the date of birth herein is correct, but we will further submit the ID on Monday.

CHAIRPERSON: What language would you prefer to use?

MR DLAMINI: Zulu.

SOLOMON DLAMINI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated. Mr Dlamini, if you press that button on your microphone, leave it on, because you are going to be talking most of the time. Yes, Mr Shane.

EXAMINATION BY MR SHANE: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Dlamini, you have also made an application for amnesty, is that correct?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR SHANE: Were you a member of the Self Defence Unit?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR SHANE: Which Section were you part of the Unit?

MR DLAMINI: At Tokoza Slovo Section.

MR SHANE: Who was your Commander?

MR DLAMINI: Blah was the Commander.

MR SHANE: Is Blah also known by the name of Mduduzi Moses Kubeka?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is the one.

MR SHANE: Since when were you part of the Unit, when did you join the Self Defence Unit?

MR DLAMINI: In 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you just repeat that name, I didn't quite get it. You can do so yourself?

MR SHANE: The name of Blah is Mduduzi Moses Kubeka.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR SHANE: With me here, I've got your application and on page 9 on paragraph 9(a)(i) you said the acts that you are applying for is theft of firearms from Kliprivier police station and assault. In fact it shouldn't be theft, it should be armed robbery, assault and unlawful possession of arms and ammunition, do you confirm that?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE: Do you know the date on which this incident occurred?

MR DLAMINI: 15th of December 1993.

MR SHANE: 15 December 1993? What happened on the 15th of December 1993?

MR DLAMINI: There were six of us. We left from Blah's place, headed for the Kliprivier police station. We went there with the intention of armed robbery. Four of us remained outside when we got there. Only myself and one other deceased person went inside. There were two police.

CHAIRPERSON: How many went in?

MR DLAMINI: There were only two of us who went inside. We found two policemen.

CHAIRPERSON: Who are the two that went in?

MR DLAMINI: It was myself and Themba.

CHAIRPERSON: Themba who?

MR DLAMINI: Sibeko.

MR SHANE: Then who are the four who remained outside?

MR DLAMINI: It was Mduduzi, Kage and Molefe as well as Serge Mokozi.

MR SHANE: Then Themba Sibeko and yourself got in to this police station, then the four others remained outside. What happened?

MR DLAMINI: We found two policemen, black policemen. I said to them we are asking for help. They wanted to know what kind of help we wanted and I told them that we have a breakdown, a motor vehicle breakdown and when they wanted to know where, I drew my firearm and pointed it at them.

Themba too had a firearm. We then instructed them to lay on the floor. After that, we took the firearms that they had. We took the firearms that they had in their possession. Mduduzi, Molefe and the other one came in. We wanted to know where the other firearms were.

We wanted to know from these policemen where the other firearms were because we only found three firearms from them, two pistols as well as an R5. They became stubborn. We tried to scare them, beating them up and promised them death.

They then told us that the firearms, the other firearms are in the safe. We demanded the keys to the safe. They gave us the keys. They showed us the key, we ordered one of them to stand up and that was the one who was led to the safe to open it himself. Indeed, we found the firearms there in the safe. We found palm guns, six of them. Six palm guns, three R1's, four pistols. We then tore a wire, we then disconnected the telephone wire. We then left.

CHAIRPERSON: What happened to the policemen?

MR DLAMINI: We left them there.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you tie them up or ...

MR DLAMINI: No, we did not.

MR SHANE: Who commanded this operation sir?

MR DLAMINI: Mduduzi.

MR SHANE: Why did you specifically target this Kliprivier police station?

MR DLAMINI: It was an easy target.

MR SHANE: Explain.

MR DLAMINI: It was an easy target, it did not have many policemen.

MR SHANE: Were you all armed on that particular day?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

MR SHANE: If you were armed and your intention was to go and rob these arms and ammunitions, did you foresee that the police officers who were at that police station, would if resisting, would get hurt or would eventually die?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, we did think about that but then we were also armed. We wanted these firearms from the police station.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you do what was necessary to obtain those firearms?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR SHANE: Do you what ultimately happened to the arms and ammunition that you robbed that particular day?

MR DLAMINI: We used these firearms for the protection of the community.

CHAIRPERSON: When you left the police station with all these firearms, what did you do with that?

MR DLAMINI: We gave these firearms to Blah and he in turn gave it to our soldiers, gave these firearms to our soldiers.

MR SHANE: The arms that were distributed by Blah, that is the arms that you robbed at the police station, will you agree with me that they were also used in all these violent activities that occurred during the period 1993 to the end of the violence in mid-1994?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE: And you associate yourself with the results that came about as a result of those arms, that is the murders and the injuries that were caused?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you associate yourself with the crimes committed in the process of stealing those firearms?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE: If you were to know the identity of the police officers that you assaulted, threatened when you robbed these arms, would you take that opportunity and try to express your words of regret, that you are sorry for what you did on that particular evening, on that particular day?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I would apologise to them.

MR SHANE: Mr Chairman, through the evidence it transpired that a telephone wire was cut and as a result, it constitutes malicious damage to property. I would request that it be added as a further application in this regard.

CHAIRPERSON: ... telephone wires, as I understand your evidence, it was part and parcel of this whole action?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct. We wanted to be safe until we were out of the place.

MR SHANE: Thank you Mr Chairman, I don't have any further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHANE

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I don't have any questions, except to confirm that we have received information from the police that there was actually police officers injured on the scene. That was all that we received.

CHAIRPERSON: Are we not aware of the identities of those?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I was informed that the specific incident could not be further traced, except that an incident occurred where police officers were injured. Thank you sir.

MR SIBANYONI: I've got no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: You say that the Commander, once he received the firearms, he distributed it to the soldiers of the Unit?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know that that was going to happen when you went on the operation?

MR DLAMINI: Yes. We already knew that.

CHAIRPERSON: And you associated yourself with such distribution of firearms?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You had no right to do so, no legal right?

MR DLAMINI: What right?

CHAIRPERSON: To distribute firearms? I am talking about legal right?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I did not have that right.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the situation in Tokoza today?

MR DLAMINI: The situation is back to normal today.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you feel about that fact?

MR DLAMINI: I am free.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you think of institutions like police stations today? Are they necessary in our society?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, they are important for now.

CHAIRPERSON: Should they be respected?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, they should be respected.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you agree that in the violence that occurred during that time, and in particular I am talking about the Tokoza area, many people died?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, many people died.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you agree we should avoid a repetition of that in future?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I agree.

CHAIRPERSON: And that our people irrespective of their political affiliations, should live in peace together?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I agree with you.

CHAIRPERSON: Have there been lessons to be learnt from the previous experience do you think?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, so many lessons.

CHAIRPERSON: And have we learnt from them?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, we have learnt.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

WITNESS EXCUSED