CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) go through the formalities of putting the Panel on record. The matter that is before us is that of David Ace Phetla. Mr Koopedi appears for the applicant and he has indicated that the application is to be withdrawn. Mr Koopedi, if you could confirm that then we can deal with the matter?
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Honourable Chairperson. It is so, I appear here on behalf of David Ace Phetla and I was instructed by him to withdraw his application this morning.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Thank you Mr Koopedi. The application is then withdrawn and then disposed of. We have convened just to deal with this matter for logistical reasons and will adjourn now, stand down and reconvene once we are ready to proceed with the rest of the roll.
APPLICATION OF DAVID ACE PHETLA WITHDRAWN FROM ROLL
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. We want to continue the proceedings. For the record it is Monday, 2nd October 2000. It's a sitting of the Amnesty Committee at the JISS Centre in Johannesburg. The Panel consists of myself, my name is Denzil Potgieter and with me are Advocates Bosman and Sandi. The application which is before us is that of Zwelakhe Thandikosi Cebekhulu. The amnesty reference number is AM4444/96. Just for purposes of the record I'm going to ask the legal representatives to place themselves on the record, I think starting with Ms van der Westhuizen.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, it's Anina van der Westhuizen, I appear on behalf of the applicant.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms van der Westhuizen. And are you on your own Ms Mtanga?
MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well.
MS MTANGA: Chairperson, can I be allowed to place on record the names of the victims who are here? We have Mr Alpheus Mandlagasi Langa and the second victim is here, is Nontlantla Jame Muhlundlu. Chairperson, all the victims were notified including the next-of-kin of Mr Buthelezi who died in this incident and they had indicated that they would want to come but they have not arrived yet. I'm not sure if they're still coming or not but the only victims that are here so far are the two people that I've just mentioned.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. You say there's no indication in regard to the next-of-kin of Mr Buthelezi?
MS MTANGA: No Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Have they given any indication as to whether they were contemplating opposing the application when the notices were served on them?
MS MTANGA: Chairperson, we don't have that indication. The only indication we got was from the Langa family.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well. You are satisfied that the notices were served properly on the Buthelezi next-of-kin?
MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson. The office will be faxing me the return of service to confirm that, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you asking for the matter to proceed in the circumstances?
MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well, under those circumstances the matter will proceed. We have commenced the proceedings much later than would have been the indication on the notices so under those circumstances we proceed with the application. Ms van der Westhuizen?
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you Chairperson. Before we start with the applicant in this matter I'd like to point out some mistakes that the applicant want's the Committee's attention to be drawn to and the first one is on page 2 of the bundle and that is the first incident, the first murder for which he is applying for amnesty. Chairperson, you will notice that on the first date given there is 1988. That seems to be incorrect. According to the applicant it should be 1985.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that paragraph 9a(ii)?
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is indeed so.
CHAIRPERSON: That should read 1985. We've noted that.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And then on page 7, that's some answers given apparently to questions from the TRC, the first paragraph, the long paragraph, it's stated and this refers to this incident, this date of 1985, that
"This killing happened about six months before my brother and I killed an ANC member, a Xhosa man."
Honourable Chairperson, this is also not correct according to the applicant because of this date change.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And then, Chairperson, it's also - the answers given on page 13, it's requested further particulars from the TRC, just two matters and that is the first - it's 1(c).
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: The answer given there is
"An employee of Score Metals, Langa Kimba told me that some ANC members killed my uncle"
Honourable Chairperson, he also states his uncle also together with Langa Kimba told him that some ANC members killed his uncle. So just the uncle should be added.
CHAIRPERSON: Added. Yes, thank you.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And then the 2(c) as well. There are three names there. He indicates that the last name Bheki Sibiya was a person who did not enter the house, he stayed outside of the house and that the first two names, Musamewa Sikakane and Bheki Umkonsa in fact entered the house during that incident.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, that concludes the mistakes.
CHAIRPERSON: We've noted that. Shall we administer the oath to your client?
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well.
ZWELAKHE THANDIKOSI CEBEKHULU: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.
Mr Cebekhulu, can you please describe to this Committee your personal background? Where are you coming from, where did you grow up?
MR CEBEKHULU: I come from Nqutu in Kwa-Zulu Natal, that's where I grew up at a Section called Shlashagate.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now at some stage you moved to the Gauteng area. Where did you reside?
MR CEBEKHULU: I resided at the Baragwanath Hospital where I was working.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Did you belong to any political party?
MR CEBEKHULU: Yes, I was a member of the IFP.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And were you also a member of a specific branch of the IFP?
MR CEBEKHULU: I was not a member of any branch but I was just a member of the IFP.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Did you go to or attend meetings of any particular branch even if you didn't belong to a specific branch?
MR CEBEKHULU: Yes, I used to attend meetings.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Where?
MR CEBEKHULU: In the township.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now you applied ...(intervention)
MR CEBEKHULU: Excuse me, let me rectify this. At Score Metals.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you. You applied for one incident where a Xhosa man was killed. I'm just going to refer to this incident as a killing of a Xhosa man, just to make it easier and in relation to this incident, can you tell this Honourable Committee what led to the killing of this Xhosa man?
MR CEBEKHULU: He had been a member of the ANC.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: One of your relatives, was one of your relatives killed during that time?
MR CEBEKHULU: Yes.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Who was that?
MR CEBEKHULU: Umsyifaan Cebekhulu.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: What relationship was he to you, was he a brother or who was he?
MR CEBEKHULU: He was my father.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Where did he work?
MR CEBEKHULU: At Baragwanath Hospital.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now did you receive information about who killed this father of yours?
MR CEBEKHULU: The information that I gathered was to the effect that it was the ANC involved in his death because he was a member of the IFP.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Who told you this?
MR CEBEKHULU: Cebekhulu told me this.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And is he the only one that provided you with this information?
MR CEBEKHULU: Landa Khumba also added or actually confirmed this.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Where were you when you were given this information?
MR CEBEKHULU: I was at Score Metals.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And the people, did you receive names of these killers?
MR CEBEKHULU: The names that I received were those of Nganeni Bata and Nshlomoshle as well as one other man of the Xhosa community or Xhosa ethnic group rather.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: The names given to you, did you know them by sight?
MR CEBEKHULU: I knew two of them.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Were any of them pointed out to them?
MR CEBEKHULU: Yes that is correct.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Where were they pointed out to you?
MR CEBEKHULU: They were at a meeting at score metals.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Did you discuss the killing of these people with anyone or did you just decide on your own that you will take revenge?
MR CEBEKHULU: We did not decide as a group, I just made a sole decision.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: So what happened after you received this information, were you looking for the suspects to kill them? What did you do?
MR CEBEKHULU: We were in town going to a woman who was selling fruits and Westgate and we came across one of the guys who was present and then I shot him.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Before you proceed can you just tell us who was with you on that day?
MR CEBEKHULU: Bekseni Cebekhulu was in my company.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Is that your brother?
MR CEBEKHULU: That is correct.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Were you both armed on that day?
MR CEBEKHULU: That is correct, both of us were armed.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now the suspect that you saw, did you know him by name?
MR CEBEKHULU: I didn't know the name, I only knew him by sight after he was pointed out.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: How do you know that he was a member of the ANC?
MR CEBEKHULU: I used to see them at a meeting when they attended the meeting at Score Metals.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now you say when you got close to Westgate when you saw this man you took out your firearm and you fired at him, was he alone at that stage or was he part of a group?
MR CEBEKHULU: He was in the company of some other people.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: The people from that group, did they shoot at you at all, did they return the fire or what happened?
MR CEBEKHULU: They ran away but there were some firings which I couldn't establish whence they came and I got shot in the process.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now after you shot this man, did you tell anybody that you've now revenged your uncle's death?
MR CEBEKHULU: No, I did not tell anybody. Instead I was arrested.
ADV BOSMAN: Was it his uncle or his father, Ms van der Westhuizen? My notes say his father.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Honourable Member, I think we can maybe clarify that with him. In the application he speaks of his uncle and before the Committee he's now speaking of his father. I don't know if he's - he might be referring to his uncle as his father.
ADV BOSMAN: It's perhaps an appropriate time to clarify it so that we could follow the rest of his evidence?
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: We'll clarify that.
Mr Cebekhulu, the person whose death you revenged, was he your blood father or was he an uncle of yours?
MR CEBEKHULU: That was my uncle, his name was Tushelele Cebekhulu.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now I want to move on to the second incident and I refer to this as the Vosloorus attack, that is the place where you went to an attacked a number of people in the Langa household. Can you tell the Committee how did this attack come about? Who called you to go to that house?
MR CEBEKHULU: Ngalelo Sikakane came to Diepkloof.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes and what did he tell you?
MR CEBEKHULU: He came to inform us that there were ANC members who resided at Manana and we agreed that we should go and kill them.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now this Mr Sikakane, who was he?
MR CEBEKHULU: He too was an IFP member.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Did he have any leadership position?
MR CEBEKHULU: I did not know his position within the IFP.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: When you say he came to you in Diepkloof, where is he from? Is he from another area?
MR CEBEKHULU: He resided at Vosloorus at the hostel that was predominantly occupied by isiZulu speaking people.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now when he approached you in Diepkloof, were you with some other people or were you alone?
MR CEBEKHULU: I was in the company of other people.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Who are they?
MR CEBEKHULU: Bheki Spia, Bheki Mkonso as well as Bekseni Cebekhulu himself and Lulenduneni Mkonso. There was quite a number of us who stayed there.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: So when he approached you and said that you must go attack ANC people in Vosloorus, did he tell you why you should go and attack these people?
MR CEBEKHULU: He said he had been attacked after he had lost two family members.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes and after this after request was put to you did you go with him to Vosloorus?
MR CEBEKHULU: Indeed we went to Vosloorus, there were six of us.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: What time of the day was this more or less?
MR CEBEKHULU: It was after eleven o'clock and headed towards twelve.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: When you arrived at the Vosloorus area, where did you go to first?
MR CEBEKHULU: We started at the hostel and after that we went to the township because Sikakane was familiar with the neighbourhood.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: What did you do at the hostel?
MR CEBEKHULU: We discussed our route.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Were you armed at that stage?
MR CEBEKHULU: Yes.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now when you left the hostel did you leave in a group?
MR CEBEKHULU: We separated. Two were in front, others in the middle and the last group at the back.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Can you give the names of all the people who went with you to this specific house or who were members of that group at that stage?
MR CEBEKHULU: Myself and Bheki Mkonso as well as Ngalelo Sikakane were in front and behind us was Lulenduneni Mkonso, Bheki Spia and Zazi Sikakane.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now who would you say was the leader of this group?
MR CEBEKHULU: Sikakane.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Is he the one who pointed out the house that you were on your way to attack?
MR CEBEKHULU: Correct.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: The other members of this group, were they armed?
MR CEBEKHULU: Yes they were armed.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: With firearms?
MR CEBEKHULU: One of them was in possession of a firearm and the other ones were armed with knobkierries.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Who had the firearm?
MR CEBEKHULU: Bheki Spia.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now when you arrived at this house what happened then?
MR CEBEKHULU: We entered the household and on entering the kitchen then Langa saw me. They then stood up and fled into the bedroom. That's when I started opening fire.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Before you continue, you say "we entered the household", did all of you enter into that house or did some remain outside?
MR CEBEKHULU: There were a few of us inside and outside there were three others waiting.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Please tell the Honourable Committee who went in the house and who remained outside?
MR CEBEKHULU: Myself, Ngalelo Sikakane and Bheki Mkonso went inside. Bheki Spia and Zazi Sikakane as well as Luluenduneni Mkonso waited outside.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Why were they waiting outside?
MR CEBEKHULU: They were waiting for anybody who was attempting to flee so that they could be shot.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And you say upon entering, Langa saw you and fled. Where did you know this Mr Langa from?
MR CEBEKHULU: I know him from Nqutu.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Did you know whether he was a member of the ANC or not?
MR CEBEKHULU: I had been informed by Sikakane that he was a member of the ANC.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Did you speak to anybody in that house when you entered the house?
MR CEBEKHULU: No.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now when you entered the house, who did you see apart from Mr Langa? Did you see other people in the house?
MR CEBEKHULU: There is one woman who was in their company.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And your plan, when you approached that house, were you just going to shoot anybody in that house or were you looking for specific people?
MR CEBEKHULU: We had planned to shoot anybody inside because Sikakane had indicated that everybody in that house belonged to the ANC.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now how many shots did you fire inside that house?
MR CEBEKHULU: Twice.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And could you see whether you hit anybody or bullets hit anybody?
MR CEBEKHULU: Correct, one male and one female were shot.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And is it correct the male is the person who died?
MR CEBEKHULU: Correct.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now what happened afterwards, after you'd fired these shots?
MR CEBEKHULU: They fled into the bedroom and we too ran away.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And you were arrested that same day, is that correct?
MR CEBEKHULU: That is correct.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now these people that you went out to attack, is it so that you didn't know yourself whether they were ANC members, you just attacked them on the word of Mr Sikakane?
MR CEBEKHULU: That is correct.
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms van der Westhuizen. Ms Mtanga, any questions?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson, thank you.
Mr Cebekhulu, you indicated that you didn't know whether Langa was an ANC member or not, you were only told by Sikakane. How long before this incident did Sikakane tell you that Langa was an ANC member? How long before you went to attack?
MR CEBEKHULU: On the day when he arrived at Diepkloof.
MS MTANGA: You also indicated that the reason that Sikakane came to see you it was because two of his relatives had been killed by the ANC, am I correct?
MR CEBEKHULU: Yes that is correct. He was also attacked.
MS MTANGA: Where did this take place?
MR CEBEKHULU: He was attacked in the firm where he was working in Boksburg.
MS MTANGA: Did he say who attacked him?
MR CEBEKHULU: He just said it was members of the ANC, he didn't mention any names.
MS MTANGA: You also mentioned that when you arrived at the house of Langa, when he saw you he ran away or he fled into his bedroom. Am I correct to say that?
MR CEBEKHULU: Yes that is correct.
MS MTANGA: Did Langa consider you his enemy or did you at that time think he considered you as an enemy?
MR CEBEKHULU: He ran away because he perceived us as enemies.
MS MTANGA: Why were you his enemies or why did he consider you his enemies?
MR CEBEKHULU: Sikakane and Langa knew each other. Sikakane knew that Langa was an ANC and Langa as well knew that Sikakane was an IFP member.
MS MTANGA: Mr Cebekhulu, we're talking about 1989 here. This incident took place on the 8th October 1989. The ANC was banned at that time so how would Mr Langa have joined the ANC at that time, in 1989?
MR CEBEKHULU: Even though the ANC was banned but it was present.
MS MTANGA: Mr Langa will come here and testify that the reason they were attacked on that day it's because of the impi that was taking place back at home in Nqutu. What do you say to this, Mr Cebekhulu?
MR CEBEKHULU: I wouldn't dispute that but at the time I didn't know that information and I was a member of IFP and I was working as a member of IFP and I was resident in Johannesburg, I was not residing at home.
MS MTANGA: Mr Cebekhulu, you and Mr Sikakane and Mr Langa, as you all came from Nqutu, isn't that so?
MR CEBEKHULU: It is so.
MS MTANGA: Is it not true that at that time there were fights going on in Nqutu at the time you went to attack the Langa family?
MR CEBEKHULU: No, it is not true. Even though there were faction fights I had no idea about them because I was residing in Johannesburg at the time.
MS MTANGA: You said Mr Sikakane told you that Langa belonged to the ANC. Did he tell you which branch of the ANC did Langa belong?
MR CEBEKHULU: No, he didn't tell me that.
MS MTANGA: Where there other incidents where your group of IFP people were in conflict with the ANC people besides Mr Langa?
MR CEBEKHULU: No there were not.
MS MTANGA: Amongst the people who came from Nqutu besides Mr Langa, who else was an ANC member according to your knowledge?
MR CEBEKHULU: Nshlomoshle, Bonganeni and others. There were many.
MS MTANGA: Did you intend to kill all of them?
MR CEBEKHULU: Yes, we intended to.
MS MTANGA: Do you know of any faction fights back in Nqutu that took place in 1989?
MR CEBEKHULU: No, I do not remember.
ADV SANDI: Do you know any faction fights at Nqutu before 1989?
MR CEBEKHULU: Yes there were but I didn't know about them because I was residing in Johannesburg, I was not residing back home.
ADV BOSMAN: Ms Mtanga, hasn't the date been corrected to be 1985 and not 1989? The date of the incident?
MS MTANGA: Chairperson, that's for the first incident where they killed an unknown Xhosa man.
ADV BOSMAN: Sorry, my mistake. Thank you.
MS MTANGA: Thank you. Mr Cebekhulu, you're saying to this Committee even though you're from Nqutu and even though you went home to Nqutu you didn't know of any faction fights that took place at your own home? Is that what you're telling the Committee?
MR CEBEKHULU: Yes that is correct, that's what I'm saying.
MS MTANGA: I'm putting it to you, Mr Cebekhulu, that Mr Langa will testify that the reason that you came to attack them, he and his family was because of the faction fights that were taking place in Nqutu. What do you say to this?
MR CEBEKHULU: I wouldn't be able to dispute that but I personally, I was not involved in faction fights in Nqutu.
MS MTANGA: And secondly, that he belonged to a different group that you and Sikakane were fighting back at home. What do you say to this?
MR CEBEKHULU: I was never involved in any fights or faction fights with Langa back home.
MS MTANGA: You also mentioned that you are applying for an incident where you killed a Xhosa man in 1985? Why did you kill this man, Mr Cebekhulu?
MR CEBEKHULU: This man was one of the people who killed my uncle together with Nshlomoshle and Ganeni.
MS MTANGA: Will I be correct to say that you killed this man because you were avenging the death of your uncle?
MR CEBEKHULU: I killed him because he was a member of the ANC.
MS MTANGA: Mr Cebekhulu, the ANC did not exist in 1985. What do you say to this?
MR CEBEKHULU: ANC was well and alive even though it was banned.
MS MTANGA: Was it well and alive in Nqutu where you came from because the ANC did not exist in other places in 1985?
MR CEBEKHULU: Even here in Johannesburg the ANC was alive.
MS MTANGA: Are you saying that back in 1985 and in 1989 the ANC was in existence and fighting the IFP, is that your evidence for this Committee?
MR CEBEKHULU: Yes and they would hold meetings and we would see them.
MS MTANGA: Did they call themselves ANC?
MR CEBEKHULU: We knew that they were ANC and that they were comrades and sometimes they will publish that we should stay away from work and the reason my uncle was killed was because he didn't obey that.
MS MTANGA: Who killed your uncle?
MR CEBEKHULU: Nshlomoshle and Ganeni and one Xhosa man.
MS MTANGA: And the other two people, Ganeni and Nshlomoshle, to which organisation did they belong?
MR CEBEKHULU: ANC.
MS MTANGA: And then you also state that the reason that your uncle was killed was because he did not obey their call for what? What is it that he did not obey?
MR CEBEKHULU: He didn't want to stay away from work.
MS MTANGA: I have no further questions, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Mtanga. Mr Cebekhulu, would you have killed this deceased, so-called Xhosa person, if he was not pointed out to you as one of the killers of your uncle?
MR CEBEKHULU: No, I wouldn't have.
CHAIRPERSON: Are there any other questions from the Panel?
ADV SANDI: Yes, just on the same issue. Would you have killed this person who was said to have killed your uncle if he was not a member of the ANC?
MR CEBEKHULU: No, I wouldn't have.
ADV SANDI: Why?
MR CEBEKHULU: He wouldn't have done anything wrong.
ADV SANDI: Yes but he would have killed your uncle?
MR CEBEKHULU: I was going to report him to the Police if he wasn't an ANC member.
ADV SANDI: Where were you, just tell us, how did it come about that your uncle was attacked? Was he attacked at home, in the street, where was this?
MR CEBEKHULU: He was attacked behind the company where he was working, in the building behind.
ADV SANDI: My understanding is that in those days any person who did not adhere to campaigns to stay away from work would have been attacked regardless of the political organisation such a person belonged to?
MR CEBEKHULU: Yes, it happened that way.
ADV SANDI: Yes, if your uncle had refused to stay away from work and this was this campaign by political organisations that people should not go to work, he would have been attacked even if he was not a member of any organisation, but not necessarily because he was IFP. Do you agree?
MR CEBEKHULU: Yes I do agree with you.
ADV SANDI: When Sikakane came to you and said he - now this is about the second incident, and said he had been attacked, had he sustained any physical injuries?
MR CEBEKHULU: He escaped any injuries.
ADV SANDI: Thank you, no further questions.
ADV BOSMAN: I have no questions, thank you Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY ADV BOSMAN
CHAIRPERSON: Can I just confirm one other thing in regard to the other incident? There was a male killed and a female was shot in the face. Are those people known to you at all?
MR CEBEKHULU: No, I don't know them at all.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Ms van der Westhuizen?
Oh, Advocate Sandi?
ADV SANDI: I want to ask him about the firearms.
Where did these firearms come from?
MR CEBEKHULU: We were buying them in the hostels.
ADV SANDI: But if you were doing all those things on behalf of the IFP why did you not ask the IFP to supply you with firearms?
MR CEBEKHULU: We collected money among ourselves and bought those firearms.
ADV SANDI: Now when you say Sikakane was a member of the IFP, can you explain that? Was he a card carrying member of the IFP or did he say he was a member of the IFP?
MR CEBEKHULU: I've never seen his card but I know that he told us many times that we were working together as members of IFP.
ADV SANDI: Before you went to the house where you attacked Langa and others, you first went to the hostel. Why did you first go to the hostel?
MR CEBEKHULU: We went to fetch firearms, that's where Sikakane was residing in that hostel.
ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, just for following on that question, did you and your colleagues had anything to drink before you went on this attack of the Langa household?
MR CEBEKHULU: No, we didn't.
CHAIRPERSON: There's an indication on one of these statements before us deposed to by a policeman. It says that you were all under the influence of liquor. What is your comment on that?
MR CEBEKHULU: I personally didn't have anything to drink.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Ms van der Westhuizen?
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No questions thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes Mr Cebekhulu, you're excused. Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Is that the case?
MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is indeed the case, there are no witnesses on behalf of the applicant.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms van der Westhuizen.
