PETRUS JOHANNES COETZEE: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Mr Coetzee, you are an applicant in this matter and you request amnesty for the same aspects. Your amnesty application appears in bundle 1 from page 57 and following. You deal with this incident from page 62. Do you confirm the contents of your amnesty application that you had handed in at the TRC, as true and correct, to the best of your conscience and knowledge?
MR COETZEE: Yes, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Did you study the document, "General Background to Amnesty Application", Exhibit A, and have you previously confirmed it with regard to your own experience and do you confirm it once again and do you ask that this be incorporated?
MR COETZEE: Yes, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: You have listened to the evidence of Mr de Jager and Mr Pretorius who today gave evidence, is that correct?
MR COETZEE: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Do you have any problems with the contents of their evidence?
MR COETZEE: No, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Do you then request that this be regarded, that Mr Pretorius’ evidence be regarded as your own evidence?
MR COETZEE: Yes, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Is there anything - or may I just ask you as follows. Concerning the allegation of Mr Pretorius that certain RS agents and an R agent was killed, apparently in Zambia, he said that you have better knowledge of two of them being, and I refer to page 220 and 221 of volume 1, RS276, Constable Isaac Mazibuku and R103, Ms Cecilia Maake. Did you know those two persons?
MR COETZEE: Yes, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Were they your agents and/or informers?
MR COETZEE: Yes, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Can you tell us, Maake was an agent was she not?
MR COETZEE: Yes, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Was the position - did I say Maake, I meant Mazibuku.
MR COETZEE: Yes, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And was Maake also an agent?
MR COETZEE: Yes, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: But not a police officer?
MR COETZEE: No, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Mr Pretorius said that she was a contract worker.
MR COETZEE: Yes, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Did you speak to them, to those two persons after the Botswana raid of the 14th of June?
MR COETZEE: Yes, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: What was the content of that conversation?
MR COETZEE: It was their continued infiltration programmes, the monitoring of the activities Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Were they afraid of the situation, what did they tell you?
MR COETZEE: Yes, Chairperson, there was always that psychosis present.
MR VISSER: Were you informed anything about their movements?
MR COETZEE: No, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Did they remain behind in Botswana, or did they leave there?
MR COETZEE: Later they went up North, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And did you received information later from other infiltrated informers as to what happened to them?
MR COETZEE: Yes, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Can you briefly tell us what happened to them.
MR COETZEE: RS276, Chairperson, died in Quatro after being tortured as a result of torture and illnesses that he got there. R103 died in ...(intervention)
MR COETZEE: Mr Visser, I won't declare them dead on this evidence.
MR VISSER: ...(indistinct - no microphone)
What happened to R103?
MR COETZEE: R103 at some stage after torture was killed in Zambia.
MR VISSER: And would you have preferred that investigations be launched into the circumstances of their deaths?
MR COETZEE: Yes, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Mr Coetzee, if we can return to your statement, and I refer you to page 71 where you deal with this incident and you go over to page 92, at the bottom of page 92 you refer to an operation at Speskop - oh I beg your pardon, I am at the wrong pages, I do apologise. Let us start from the beginning again and while we are starting at the beginning, let's do it properly. On page 49 to 50 you dealt with the underground cell structures and activities in Botswana and there you have given a whole list - oh, I beg your pardon, page 64, I do apologise, you give a whole list there of aspects that dealt with what your investigations entailed.
MR COETZEE: Yes, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: I do not want you to go through it, but is that still the evidence about the extent of what you investigated?
MR COETZEE: Yes, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And then on page 51 you mentioned certain names of certain persons, were those the persons ... 65, did I say 51, I'm sorry, 65. I'm sorry Chairperson, it's late in the day.
MR MALAN: The page in the bundle is 65.
MR VISSER: I thought I am going crazy here.
Were these the persons that you were busy monitoring by means of your agents and informers?
MR COETZEE: Yes, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And can we just go through that list. We have here Calvin Khan, Ricketts, that was not an MK name, this was his proper name?
MR COETZEE: That's correct.
MR VISSER: Tim Williams was also not an MK name, that was his proper name?
MR COETZEE: Yes, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Billy Masetla?
MR COETZEE: Yes, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: The current Minister of Law and Order.
MR BERGER: No, he's not.
MR VISSER: Okay.
The Director-General of Home Affairs. I would have failed this test completely, Chairperson.
That is also not an MK name, not so?
MR COETZEE: Yes, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And then we have Pepane that you mention.
MR COETZEE: Yes.
MR VISSER: Rogers Nkadimeng who was the subject of another amnesty application that served before this Chairperson and Mr Malan?
MR COETZEE: Yes, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Who was Sipho Dlamini?
MR COETZEE: He was an arrested SACTO trainee.
MR VISSER: Did he also go under another name?
MR COETZEE: It is possible, I do not know.
MR VISSER: And then we have Lambert Maloyi. It's spelt incorrectly, but it doesn't matter. And then Mnisi, which Mnisi was that?
MR COETZEE: The well-known Mnisi from Pretoria, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And what was his name?
MR COETZEE: I cannot recall his name any longer.
MR VISSER: Then he was not so well-known. Well you should know him, Chairperson, he applied as an applicant for amnesty in the whole ... Johannes Mnisi.
And Ben Zokwe?
MR COETZEE: Yes, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: If we study Exhibit B, Mr Coetzee, the names that appear there, did you have any information of number 2 on that list?
MR COETZEE: No, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Mohammed Geer?
MR COETZEE: No, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Michael Frank Hamlyn?
MR COETZEE: No, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And number 4, a person by the name of Keso Pele?
MR COETZEE: No, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Number 5?
MR COETZEE: No, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: 6, Duke Machobane?
MR COETZEE: I have heard the name, yes, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: But you had no information about him?
MR COETZEE: No, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Joseph Malaza, number 7?
MR COETZEE: No, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Do you know anything about Peter Mofoka, it's apparently a six year old boy?
MR COETZEE: No, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Harry Tamsanqwa Mnyele?
MR COETZEE: Yes, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: What do you know about him?
MR COETZEE: His activities as conveyed to the Committee by Col Pretorius.
MR VISSER: Was that also your knowledge?
MR COETZEE: Yes, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And Dick Mtsweni?
MR COETZEE: I heard of him, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Nothing else?
MR COETZEE: Nothing else, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: We have already discussed Nkadimeng and George Pahle.
MR COETZEE: Yes, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: What did you know about him?
MR COETZEE: As once again told to the Committee by Col Pretorius, his involvement in the activities from Botswana.
MR VISSER: And then Lindi Pahle?
MR COETZEE: No, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And then the last person on this list of the ANC, Zondi, Mr Basil Zondi?
MR COETZEE: No, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Chairperson, I believe that I have touched on everything. Yes, but probably just the following.
You were asked to convey information to Special Forces and you knew this was to be aimed at an attack in Botswana.
MR COETZEE: Yes, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And did you then supply such information and did you give instruction to Pretorius to also convey information?
MR COETZEE: Yes, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: The information that you conveyed from Soweto, included more than just only the persons who were killed here, or the targets in this application?
MR COETZEE: Yes, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Did you know that your information would be used for the attack and that persons would be killed and/or injured and that targets would be attacked?
MR COETZEE: Yes, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And did you also foresee that innocent persons could be hit by this?
MR COETZEE: Yes, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR COETSER: Mr Coetzee, just one question. If one looks at your affidavit which you submitted, you do mention that at a stage there was a request that Mr Olifant accompany the military on this particular raid because of the fact that the military were unsure about the location of a particular house. You do not however, canvass what your discussion was with Mr Olifant in that regard. What Mr Olifant has describe in his two affidavits are that some time shortly before the raid in June '85, you called him into your office and asked him simply if he remembered the houses that he had observed. He confirmed this and you then told him that Anton Pretorius would be taking him somewhere where he would be practising and be briefed by members of the SADF concerning a mission in Botswana. Relying on your memory now, I know it may be difficult, but would you say that that was in essence the conversation which you had with Olifant, the briefing that you gave him?
MR COETZEE: I beg your pardon, Sir? Chairperson, I cannot hear him properly.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you ask Olifant to accompany the SADF to Botswana?
MR COETZEE: Yes, Chairperson.
MR COETSER: Mr Olifant has described in his affidavits the content of that discussion that you had with him, I've just read it out to you now. Can you deny that that was more-or-less what the discussion was about?
MR COETZEE: I accord, Chairperson.
MR COETSER: Then just one other aspect of your affidavit, you say at page 70 of bundle 1
"Const Olifant in this regard only went to identify the particular address during this operation."
MR COETZEE: Those were the instructions, Chairperson.
MR COETSER: So I take it then that this was an assumption on your part as to what he actually did during the operation, based upon the request that you got from the military?
MR COETZEE: Yes, Chairperson.
MR COETSER: You don't in fact know exactly what the military asked him to do during the course of the operation?
MR COETZEE: I cannot comment, Chairperson.
MR COETSER: Thank you, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR COETSER
MR CORNELIUS: I shall be brief, I've got no questions thank you, Chair.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS
CHAIRPERSON: Not so lucky hey?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER: I'm waiting for Mr Cornelius to ask one question.
Mr Coetzee, are the Willie Coetzee from Ladybrand?
MR COETZEE: No, Chairperson.
MR BERGER: Do you know about your namesake, Willie Coetzee?
MR COETZEE: No.
MR BERGER: Okay. Mr Coetzee, you say at page 67 that you attended a meeting and I assume this is the meeting at Speskop.
MR COETZEE: Yes, Chairperson.
MR BERGER: And during this meeting - this is the one which would have been about two to two and a half weeks before the attack?
MR COETZEE: By approximation, Chairperson, I cannot recall the date.
MR BERGER: And you say there that
"Discussions points during this particular meeting centralised primarily around the following aspects: the Botswana threat analysis, MK underground front structures"
Would it be correct to say that the debate was centred on MK and MK activities?
MR COETZEE: Yes, Chairperson.
MR BERGER: You were not - you, and when I say you I mean the whole meeting, was not interested in political activities in Botswana, it was the military activities that were of concern?
MR COETZEE: Yes, Chairperson.
MR BERGER: And then you say, the third point
"Composition of a priority list for purposes of possible and future cross-border action."
MR COETZEE: Yes, Chairperson.
MR BERGER: The first point is, hadn't a decision already been taken at that point, that there was going to be an attack?
MR COETZEE: I cannot comment on that, Chairperson.
MR BERGER: I'm surprised ...
MR COETZEE: There was no authorisation at that stage for any cross-border actions, Chairperson.
MR BERGER: Wasn't the purpose of that meeting to synthesise the list from 29 targets down to 12?
MR COETZEE: Chairperson, as it is stated, to draw up a priority list.
MR BERGER: For an attack that was about to be launched.
MR COETZEE: A proposed attack.
MR BERGER: Did you play any part in the drawing up of that priority list?
MR COETZEE: Yes, Chairperson, we gave our inputs.
MR BERGER: You personally, what was your contribution?
MR COETZEE: As given by the previous applicant, Col Pretorius, Chairperson.
MR BERGER: Which was what?
MR COETZEE: The facilities in Botswana with the persons connected to those facilities, Chairperson.
MR BERGER: So the six or seven targets that Mr Pretorius spoke about, you confirm?
MR COETZEE: Yes, Chairperson.
MR BERGER: The same people that he spoke about, you confirm?
MR COETZEE: Yes, Chairperson.
MR BERGER: You listened to my cross-examination of Mr Pretorius?
MR COETZEE: Partially, Chairperson.
MR BERGER: Is there anything that you'd want to add to the ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: If he says "gedeeltelik" he didn't listen to everything.
MR BERGER: Mr Coetzee, you nearly had a shortcut.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you present when he mentioned the names?
MR COETZEE: Yes, I was present.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, you're back on your shortcut.
MR BERGER: Sorry, I missed that.
CHAIRPERSON: He says he was present when the names were dealt with, so that section of Mr Pretorius' evidence he did listen to.
MR BERGER: You confirm that the only person who was ultimately killed, whose name was put forward by you, and when I say you it's you and Mr Pretorius, was Tami Mnyele.
MR COETZEE: Yes, Chairperson.
MR BERGER: And you confirm what Mr Pretorius said about being shown a photograph of the late Tami Mnyele and being told by one or more of the informers that that was Tami Mnyele who died?
MR COETZEE: Yes, Chairperson.
MR BERGER: And that was shortly after the attack?
MR COETZEE: Yes, I cannot recall the dates though Chairperson.
MR BERGER: And what is your reason for failing to mention the name of Tami Mnyele at the bottom of page 70, top of page 71 of bundle 1?
MR COETZEE: Chairperson, I will answer it. We were under tremendous pressure, we had to process these things, we had to compile it, we were alone, we had to go in for legal consultation and I ascribe it to that, that I made these mistakes.
MR BERGER: You were under ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: I assume that that pressure did not allow you to mention any name? The question is, you applied for amnesty with regard to what and whom, and when you filled in this form there was so much pressure that you could not recall a single name or address, do I understand you correctly? I'm not saying you are lying, but do I understand you correctly?
MR COETZEE: There was no ulterior motive in omitting anything, Chairperson. Secondly, Chairperson, the pressure and thirdly, at that stage one did not have all the data any longer and as time went along the data was recalled in the memory, Chairperson.
MR BERGER: Mr Coetzee, listen to your answer. You've just told the Committee that you confirm the evidence that the only person who you gave information on who was ultimately killed, was Tami Mnyele, immediately after the attack or shortly after the attack you saw a photograph of the late Tami Mnyele, he was identified to you as Tami Mnyele. Now you can't say that this is information which came subsequent to the handing in of your amnesty application, so we can leave that bit out. You were under so much pressure - start at page 62, look at the detail that you give from 62 all the way through to page 70, lots and lots of detail. You give a whole list of 11 names at page 65, of all the people that you kept under surveillance and yet when you are asked a simple question, to give the names of any of the deceased, you say at the bottom of page 70
"According to my knowledge a number of persons were killed and injured. I do not have any particulars"
and then at the top of page 71, when you are asked for the names you say:
"Unknown, unknown, unknown, unknown"
MR COETZEE: That is an administrative - I ascribe that to an administrative omission and the pressure, because there was no ulterior motives. I could have informed the Commission and I would have referred to these aspects.
MR BERGER: You see what I want to put to you is, maybe you didn't have all the information on Tami Mnyele that you now claim to have had.
MR COETZEE: I do not agree, Chairperson.
MR BERGER: Because if you had had that information you would remembered his name, you would have put it in.
MR COETZEE: I shall ascribe it, Chairperson, to an administrative omission and the pressure.
MR BERGER: That "druk" that you talk about was self-created "druk".
MR COETZEE: At that stage we were no longer members of the Force and we had to process these things ourselves and we had to type it ourselves and from a legal point we still had to consult with our legal representatives, and Chairperson, we handed up quite a document.
MR BERGER: According to your knowledge the purpose of the attack and the purpose of the information for which you supplied information, was to destroy the capacity of MK in Gaberone to launch attacks against South Africa.
MR COETZEE: I would say so, Chairperson, to disrupt the structures, Chairperson.
MR BERGER: Thank you, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER
CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)
MR VISSER: Alright, Chairperson, I have no re-examination, thank you.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER
MR MALAN: No questions, thank you.
JUDGE MOTATA: Mr Coetzee, during the monitoring process leading up to the raid in Botswana, was Mr Mnyele also monitored?
MR COETZEE: Yes, Chairperson.
JUDGE MOTATA: Because I'm following up on the question asked by Berger, you have named people on page 65, which you monitored, but I don't see his name there either, you've now monitored several people but you haven't mentioned a Tami Mnyele, that alone to say that he was one of the people who died whom you monitored.
MR COETZEE: Yes, Chairperson, I should have said "amongst others" as Col Pretorius indicated, that was a mistake from my side. And then I can also add Johnson, other names Chairperson, these were the primary persons.
JUDGE MOTATA: But was Tami Mnyele not important in this regard because he was killed and you were shown his photograph?
MR COETZEE: Yes at that stage Chairperson, it was his wife.
JUDGE MOTATA: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions. Thank you, Mr Coetzee.
MR MALAN: I have no questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you're excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I believe, unless I've lost count, the last of my witnesses is Mr Meyer. He's also willing to take
the oath without objection, and he wishes to speak Afrikaans, Chairperson.
