ON RESUMPTION
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko?
MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Our next applicant is Mr Aaron Ngwenya. His application appears on page 64, Lusaka-B.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko, just before I swear the applicant in, one of the important items of information that we require for our purposes is the identity number of the applicant. Now in a few matters that we have already heard and in some that we are about to hear, we've noticed that the identity numbers have not been filled in on the application form itself, so perhaps at some stage you might look into that and perhaps just assist our officials in getting that information from your clients. We don't need to do it on the record or anything like that. So if you just simply bear that in mind when you deal with them, to make sure that they have their ID numbers and they can furnish it to us, thank you.
MR SIBEKO: I'll do so, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngwenya, can you hear?
MR NGWENYA: Yes, I can hear you.
CHAIRPERSON: Would you please stand and give your full names for the record please.
JABULANI AARON NGWENYA: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may sit down. Mr Sibeko?
EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Mr Ngwenya, you are also applying for amnesty, is that correct?
MR NGWENYA: That is correct.
MR SIBEKO: Were you also a member of the Self Defence Unit, Lusaka-B section?
MR NGWENYA: That is correct.
MR SIBEKO: When did you join the unit, Sir?
MR NGWENYA: In 1993.
MR SIBEKO: Who was your commander?
MR NGWENYA: Makasonke Mhlope.
MR SIBEKO: Were you involved in any incidents of violence during the times of your membership to the Self Defence Unit, Lusaka-B?
MR NGWENYA: Yes, I was quite involved.
MR SIBEKO: Tell us about those incidents.
MR NGWENYA: I was working as a secretary at Lusaka-B.
PROBLEM WITH MICROPHONES
MR NGWENYA: I was a secretary at Lusaka-B. I used to allocate people to houses from Penduka, people who had fled as a result of the violence and I allocated them to houses that had been left behind by fleeing Inkatha members. I also organised food for them.
I would gather some money from the community to buy some food for these people. I also kept some of the weaponry. The commander had the key to the door and he would take these arms and distribute them among the soldiers. I'm through.
MR SIBEKO: Right. In your testimony you made reference to keeping arms, what type of arms were kept at your place?
MR NGWENYA: I used to keep weapons such as Scorpions and two AKs, an AK47 as well.
MR SIBEKO: At the time you kept these arms, did you know that it was unlawful because you didn't possess any licence to have those firearms with you?
MR NGWENYA: I knew that fully well. I knew that the guns were illegal, but the situation demanded as such.
MR SIBEKO: Did you appreciate the fact that those arms were meant to injure or kill anybody if used?
MR NGWENYA: That is correct.
MR SIBEKO: Were you specifically involved in any fights, that is in any attack or defensive action in your community?
MR NGWENYA: No, no, I did not use any firearm, what I did was to take care of the firearms.
MR SIBEKO: Now are you in a position to tell us about the number of houses of the displacees which you used to give shelter to those who didn't have any place to stay?
MR NGWENYA: I think there were a hundred of these houses. We would bring people and some shacks would be built behind the houses or at the backyards.
MR SIBEKO: What happened to those houses thereafter, did the owners thereof come back to occupy them or what?
MR NGWENYA: Some of these houses were demolished during the violence, but yes, some people did come back to re-occupy them.
MR SIBEKO: The people who vacated those houses, did they leave those houses as a result of specific attacks or they left their houses because there was that general violence taking place?
MR NGWENYA: There was this general spate of violence in the area, so that when Inkatha people were marching people from Mavimbala section nearby our section, if they knew that there was Inkatha people occupying a certain house, therefore moves would be taken.
MR SIBEKO: Are you aware whether some of those people were chased out, that is Self Defence Unit members went to their specific houses to take them out of their houses, are you aware whether that happened or not?
MR NGWENYA: No, I don't bear any knowledge to that effect, I just saw people fleeing their houses.
MR SIBEKO: In your testimony you made reference to the fact that you also collected ...(indistinct) from members of the community in order to provide food, who did you really provide food for? Is it the members of the community or the Self Defence Unit members?
MR NGWENYA: Members of the community. Each household used to contribute to rents. They were not under duress, they were actually prompted by the state of affairs. Some households had three children living away from them.
ADV GCABASHE: I didn't quite get that, is it the community that would benefit or the SDU?
MR NGWENYA: Yes, the community.
MR SIBEKO: The three arms that you referred to, what happened to them?
MR NGWENYA: The Scorpion was confiscated by the soldiers, or should I say "disappeared" whilst in the possession of one of our soldiers. The other one was also taken, it actually got lost.
MR SIBEKO: In other words, two of the arms that you referred to were taken by members of the South African Defence Force, the then South African Defence Force, is that correct?
MR NGWENYA: That is correct.
MR SIBEKO: The one you say remained, what happened to it?
MR NGWENYA: This one was sent to the Committee of Seven. I think they took it to the stadium or Polla Park.
MR SIBEKO: Is there any other incident that you would want us to know?
MR NGWENYA: No.
MR SIBEKO: Will I be correct therefore to say that your application is for amnesty with respect to keeping unlicensed arms at your place, secondly, giving shelter to the people who did not actually own those houses, and yourself not having permission to do that, lawful permission to do that?
MR NGWENYA: That is correct.
MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIBEKO
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you, Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Panel?
ADV SANDI: Thank you, Chair.
Mr Ngwenya, do you know of any specific incidents of attack for which members of the SDUs came to you to ask for firearms?
MR NGWENYA: Many things were happening, soldiers would come to me looking for firearms but they would not come to me directly, they would talk to the commander and not myself.
ADV SANDI: You are not able to say on such and such a date if you recall the date, soldiers came to me to ask for arms so that they could attack such and such a place, are you able to say that?
MR NGWENYA: What I know is when Mazibuko was shot, a soldier called Stambo came and took one firearm and shot Mr Mazibuko. That is one incident that I can testify to.
ADV SANDI: Who was shot, are you saying Mr Mazibuko or they shot at Mr Mazibuko?
MR NGWENYA: It was Mr Mazibuko whose house was at the corner in my same street.
ADV SANDI: Why was Mr Mazibuko shot, was he also a member of the IFP?
MR NGWENYA: He was a prominent leader of the IFP.
ADV SANDI: Thank you, Mr Ngwenya. Thank you, Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: You had how many Scorpions? Is it Scorpio or Scorpion?
MR NGWENYA: We used to call it Scorpion. It was only one and we also had two AK47s.
CHAIRPERSON: And where did those arms come from?
MR NGWENYA: These firearms came from the Committee of Seven and I handed these to the commander.
CHAIRPERSON: Now, these firearms, the Scorpion and the two AK47 rifles, they were in your possession and you distributed them to SDU members?
MR NGWENYA: No, I did not keep these, they were kept at home. We had backyard rooms where these firearms were kept, that's where Makasonke kept these firearms and he kept the key to the rooms as well.
CHAIRPERSON: So these firearms, if I now understand you correctly, were kept by the commander of your SDU, Mr Mhlope?
MR NGWENYA: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: It was just in a outside room at your house?
MR NGWENYA: At home, that's my parents' home.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you in any way involved with these firearms, were you supposed to have kept an eye on them, guard them or whatever?
MR NGWENYA: I used to spend my time at the office at Mbele Street.
CHAIRPERSON: But was there anything that you had to do in respect of these firearms?
MR NGWENYA: No, there's nothing that I did with reference to the firearms, the commander was in charge of these.
CHAIRPERSON: But did you give him the place at the back to use to store the arms in?
MR NGWENYA: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: And you knew what the arms were going to be used for, for fighting, participating in the fight that was going on in the area?
MR NGWENYA: I knew that fully well.
CHAIRPERSON: You have never personally used any one of these firearms?
MR NGWENYA: Not even a single one.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether there was ammunition as well that could be fired in these firearms?
MR NGWENYA: I never had access to the room, only the commander had access and even the soldiers did not have access to the room.
CHAIRPERSON: So you can't say whether there was ammunition as well, bullets in that room?
MR NGWENYA: There may have been some ammunition because they would come across ammunition during their patrols. Yes, there is that possibility.
CHAIRPERSON: This incident where Mr Mazibuko was shot, when did that happen?
MR NGWENYA: I have no idea when it happened, we woke up to this incident.
CHAIRPERSON: Which year or which month?
MR NGWENYA: It was in 1993, but I'm not quite sure of the month.
CHAIRPERSON: Now, you referred to one of the soldiers, SDU members, who came to take a firearm in connection with this incident of Mr Mazibuko. I think you used the word Stambo or whatever the name is, I might not have it right, is that correct?
MR NGWENYA: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you give him that firearm or how did Stambo get the firearm?
MR NGWENYA: He got this firearm from the commander. When he came I was with the commander and many others.
CHAIRPERSON: What happened to Mr Mazibuko?
MR NGWENYA: He was taken by the soldiers, that was the last time I saw him. I think it was round about 3 o'clock in the afternoon.
CHAIRPERSON: By which soldiers was he taken?
MR NGWENYA: The Stability Unit.
CHAIRPERSON: Was he injured when the Stability Unit members took him?
MR NGWENYA: I did not see, they took another route.
CHAIRPERSON: But to your knowledge, was he injured or was he killed eventually, what happened?
MR NGWENYA: He was killed because Stambo did indicate that he is dead.
CHAIRPERSON: Was it an AK47 that was given to Stambo?
MR NGWENYA: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you regard yourself as in any way involved in this incident around Mr Mazibuko?
MR NGWENYA: Yes, so much involved because the firearm that was used was kept at our home.
CHAIRPERSON: And did you know that Stambo was going to go and attack Mr Mazibuko with that AK47?
MR NGWENYA: Such things were not discussed. A person would be given a firearm, he would not indicate who he was going to shoot.
CHAIRPERSON: But you realised when the AK47 was given to Stambo, that he was likely to go and use it to shoot somebody with?
MR NGWENYA: No, I would not say that, I thought he was just going on a normal patrol.
CHAIRPERSON: But one assumes you realised that taking the gun, going on a normal patrol, under those circumstances also the firearm can be used to kill or injure somebody, not so?
MR NGWENYA: Yes, that was possible, anything could have happened.
CHAIRPERSON: And is this the only incident that you are aware of?
MR NGWENYA: This is the only incident that I can testify to, something that happened within my knowledge.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Sibeko, re-examination?
MR SIBEKO: None, Mr Chairman, thank you.
ADV SANDI: Mr Ngwenya, what about those incidents which were not known to you, incidents in which people may have been attacked and killed with the same weapons, would you take responsibility for that?
MR NGWENYA: Yes, I am involved because firearms that were used were kept at home.
ADV SANDI: You were keeping the firearms at home, not so?
MR NGWENYA: Yes.
ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you, Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Ngwenya, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, may I just put something on record about this Mr Mazibuko, the person that was killed. I'm informed, Mr Chairman, Honourable Members, that the only member that could be traced according to the people who are currently staying at the house where Mr Mazibuko was killed, is the brother of Mr Mazibuko, the brother of the late Mr Mazibuko. This family member has left the area and could not be traced as well. So regarding this specific incident no further in information regarding the family could be traced at all.
Further enquiries were also made in the area and this Mr Mazibuko was well-known but no further information could traced or could be got to identify any of the family members of Mr Mazibuko, except the brother who is apparently still alive but could not be traced. He left the area a few years back. Thank you, Mr Chairman.
