MR SIBEKO: Mr Chairman, may I be excused now, Ms Nhlayisi will proceed?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Sibeko, you are excused.
We will proceed with the next application but I want you to just put yourself on record first before we proceed to hear the next applicant.
MS NHLAYISI: Thank you, Mr Chairman, the name is Z N Nhlayisi, spelt: N-H-L-A-Y-I-S-I.
The first application is that of Wilfred Thabo Miya, amnesty application number AM 7341/97, on page 80, Lusaka-B.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Ms Nhlayisi.
Will Mr Miya come to the witness stand please. Mr Miya, please stand and give your full names for the record.
MR MIYA: My name is Wilfred Thabo Miya from Thokoza. I'm Thabo Wilfred Miya.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
WIFRED THABO MIYA: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you can sit down. Ms Nhlayisi?
EXAMINATION BY MS NHLAYISI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
Mr Miya, you're the applicant in this matter, you've applied for amnesty, is that correct?
MR MIYA: That is correct.
MS NHLAYISI: Were you a member of the SDUs, that is the Self Defence Units in Thokoza?
MR MIYA: That is correct.
MS NHLAYISI: Which year did you join the Self Defence Unit?
MR MIYA: 1993.
MS NHLAYISI: Under whose command were you?
MR MIYA: During 1993?
MS NHLAYISI: At the time you were a member of the Self Defence Unit, who was your commander?
MR MIYA: Makasonke Mhlope.
MS NHLAYISI: Did you at any stage participate in any acts of violence during the time you were a member?
MR MIYA: That is correct.
MS NHLAYISI: Do you have any specific incidents that you remember which you wish to bring to the attention of this forum?
MR MIYA: That is correct.
MS NHLAYISI: Which incident do you want to bring to the attention of this forum, that you were involved in?
MR MIYA: When I joined the Self Defence Unit there was a certain man who got injured in my street. He was being assaulted and I joined in. I assaulted. That is when the Stability Unit appeared and we scattered and ran away.
MS NHLAYISI: You're saying that this incident occurred in your street, which street are you referring to?
MR MIYA: My street is Kakatu but this incident took place at Mbele Street.
MS NHLAYISI: Did you know this person that was stoned?
MR MIYA: No, I do not know his identity.
MS NHLAYISI: Do you know why he was stoned?
MR MIYA: Yes, I do.
MS NHLAYISI: Could you tell this forum why he was stoned?
MR MIYA: Because he was a member of Inkatha and he was a hostel dweller but at the same time he had a shack within our own residential area. On that particular day he had come to pick up his belongings.
MS NHLAYISI: Do you know perhaps what happened to this person? Did he die at the scene or what happened?
MR MIYA: I ran away when the Stability Unit appeared. He was writhing and screaming at that time.
MS NHLAYISI: Was he injured?
MR MIYA: Definitely, he should have been.
MS NHLAYISI: So you won't be in a position to tell whether at a later stage he died or what happened to him?
MR MIYA: No, I wouldn't be in a position to say what happened to him thereafter.
MS NHLAYISI: You're also saying that you did participate in stoning him.
MR MIYA: Yes, I did.
MS NHLAYISI: Is there anything else that you wish to add relating to that particular incident?
MR MIYA: No, there's absolutely nothing. As I said, I picked up a gun, I kept it for two days.
MS NHLAYISI: Where did you pick this firearm?
MR MIYA: We took from a certain man who was being chased and that gun fell and we, I picked it up but my commander took it at a later stage.
MS NHLAYISI: Did you at any stage during those two days, use this firearm to shoot at somebody or to commit any act of violence?
MR MIYA: No, I never made use of the gun.
MS NHLAYISI: Why did the commander take it away from you?
MR MIYA: I wasn't experienced in the use of guns and he saw that I had a gun with, then he ordered me to hand it over and I did.
MS NHLAYISI: Is there any other incident that you can remember wherein you were involved except the two that you have just mentioned?
MR MIYA: I'm through, I've just exhausted whatever I did.
MS NHLAYISI: If I may remind you. During our consultation you referred to an incident which involved a person from Inkantla, would you mind telling this forum about that particular incident?
MR MIYA: This Inkantla issue, this man came to us whilst we were at Givani. He was coming from the Penduka section and there is a line of demarkation between ANC members as well as Inkatha members.
This person was moving from the Penduka section, heading towards us and asked us where the Kweseni industry was because he was looking for a job. He had earlier been phoned by his brother who said he will get him a job.
MS NHLAYISI: So after this particular person has asked for directions, what happened with him or what did you do with him?
MR MIYA: We said we were going to accompany him and show him a shortcut towards Kweseni. A group of people appeared, they searched him and he was in possession of an IFP membership card. They took him with and we went back.
MS NHLAYISI: You didn't do anything to this particular person, you left him with these other people?
MR MIYA: No, we never touched him, we never did anything to him. He was left with the other group.
MS NHLAYISI: You don't know what happened to him at a later stage? You don't have any knowledge of that?
MR MIYA: I have absolutely none.
MS NHLAYISI: Were you at any stage, Mr Miya, issued with a weapon?
MR MIYA: No.
MS NHLAYISI: What was your participation as the member of the Self Defence Unit without a firearm?
MR MIYA: It's because I wasn't able to use a gun I used to ferry food to the bases and check as to whether they were still intact.
MS NHLAYISI: So you were never issued with a firearm, as a result you never shot at anybody or ...(intervention)
MR MIYA: That is correct.
MS NHLAYISI: So basically you are applying for amnesty for the incident that occurred at Mbele Street where somebody was stoned and the fact that at some stage you were in possession of an unlicensed firearm, that is the .38 special that you picked up, is that correct?
MR MIYA: That is correct.
MS NHLAYISI: I observe, Mr Miya, that you are appearing here today in prison uniform, are you in prison for any of the activities in the Self Defence Unit?
MR MIYA: No.
MS NHLAYISI: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have nothing further.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS NHLAYISI
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Advocate Steenkamp?
ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR STEENKAMP
CHAIRPERSON: Panel?
ADV SANDI: Mr Miya, this incident you've spoken about, where you say you took part in stoning a member of the IFP, who was with you then?
MR MIYA: There were a lot of people, even from neighbouring sections but the person I saw and I was able to identify was Stambo, the late Stambo.
ADV SANDI: The other incident where you say it was at Inkantla, you attacked a man there, do you know the people that were with you?
MR MIYA: I was together with other members of the community.
ADV SANDI: Are there any of them who have applied for amnesty, did you see any one of them appearing before this Committee?
MR MIYA: Yes, there is one.
ADV SANDI: Who was that?
MR MIYA: It's Darryl Khumalo.
ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you, Chair.
ADV GCABASHE: In fact, just to follow up and that. Yesterday we had evidence from Siphiwe Madondo who is also a Lusaka-B member, do you know him, Siphiwe?
MR MIYA: Yes, I do.
ADV GCABASHE: He too spoke of a man who had an IFP card who was trying to find his way to Kweseni, was he with you when you came across that Inkantla man?
MR MIYA: I don't remember because there were quite a lot of us.
ADV GCABASHE: But when that man was eventually attacked, you weren't there?
MR MIYA: No, I wasn't there.
ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Nhlayisi, any re-examination?
MS NHLAYISI: No re-examination, Mr Chairperson, thank you.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS NHLAYISI
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, very much.
Mr Miya, thank you, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
