CHAIRPERSON: Have you decided gentlemen ...(indistinct)
MR BOOYENS: Mr Tait, Mr Chairman. May we just move to there.
J H TAIT: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman, the Committee would have noticed that there are in fact two applications. I'm referring to the one starting at page 85, that is the later one.
Mr Tait, you have already given evidence during the Komatiepoort hearing. We see your background, which is on page 85 to page 88. Do you confirm the content and correctness thereof, in conjunction with what you've stated during the Komatiepoort hearing, is that correct?
MR TAIT: Yes, Chairperson.
MR BOOYENS: You are applying for your share in the death of persons, six persons and the explosion of a house in Botswana which housed alleged collaborators of the PAC.
MR TAIT: Yes, that's correct, Chairperson.
MR BOOYENS: And while we all said that it was in early 1990, that this incident occurred, we are all in agreement that it was the 21st of April, is that correct?
MR TAIT: Yes, that is correct, Chairperson.
MR BOOYENS: During 1990, as you can see on your application, page 88, you were present at a roadblock where four Askaris were arrested, who later found themselves at Vlakplaas.
MR TAIT: Yes, that is correct.
MR BOOYENS: At a later stage - this date of 1990, is this correct, are you sure? - the date upon which the four Askaris were arrested.
MR TAIT: I'm not certain of that date, Chairperson.
MR BOOYENS: Then on page 89, you mention the order that you received from Colonel de Kock, is it correct as Mr Ras has stated, that you had very short notice?
MR TAIT: Correct.
MR BOOYENS: And what was the motivation behind the operation that was given to you, why was the house supposed to be attacked?
MR TAIT: Chairperson, we were told that this house was being used as a transit house, where PAC members who were going to infiltrate or ex-filtrate the country would stay overnight and that the persons living there were involved in bringing these people into the country.
MR BOOYENS: Did you have any information about DCC, the Directorate for Covert Collections involvement in this matter, and that Mr Chand was an informer for DCC?
MR TAIT: No, I had no such information.
MR BOOYENS: So according to you they were persons who collaborated in assisting PAC members in entering the country?
MR TAIT: That's correct.
MR BOOYENS: And that was sufficient reason for you to participate in such an operation, to stop this insurgency?
MR TAIT: Yes, that's correct.
MR BOOYENS: Then the second paragraph, page 89, there is one error, is that correct? You refer to Snor Vermeulen who was present during the operation, is that correct that you made an error?
MR TAIT: Yes, it is incorrect.
MR BOOYENS: Can you briefly tell us why you thought he was involved?
MR TAIT: According to what I could infer, Chairperson, I knew that when it came to explosives and demolitions, Snor usually assisted and because the house was destroyed by means of explosives, I may have thought that it was him that was involved in this.
MR BOOYENS: So you are satisfied then that the other persons whose names are mentioned there were involved in the operation?
MR TAIT: Yes, that's correct.
MR BOOYENS: You have heard the evidence of Mr Ras and Mr de Kock regarding the execution of the operation, that you stayed on the farm, that you went to the border and that you crossed the border on foot and went to the Chand house.
MR TAIT: That's correct.
MR BOOYENS: And also with regard to how the operation was executed and what took place there?
MR TAIT: Yes, that's correct.
MR BOOYENS: What were your instructions, what were you supposed to on the premises?
MR TAIT: My instructions were that I had to ensure that nobody from the external buildings interfered with this operation. From where I was however, I couldn't see any external buildings and I myself penetrated the building from the front.
MR BOOYENS: I think one of the other applicants mentioned that you - and this is on page 41, there he stated that you kicked the door in, is that correct? This would be Willie Nortje's application, at the bottom of the page
"Martiens and John Tait kicked the door in or hit is open with a hammer"
Is he correct?
MR TAIT: That is not correct.
MR BOOYENS: Was the door already open when you entered the house?
MR TAIT: That's correct.
MR BOOYENS: What was your instruction with regard to the persons occupying the house?
MR TAIT: That all the occupants in the house had to be killed.
MR BOOYENS: And did you also fire shots at these persons as you have described?
MR TAIT: Yes, I shot a person.
MR BOOYENS: Can you briefly tell us, or at least what did you expect to find in the house, did you expect to find people living there or were there any other possibilities?
MR TAIT: There were definitely other possibilities because it was known that it was a PAC transit house and we expected to find other PAC members who were armed in that house.
MR BOOYENS: Tell us in your own words what you can recall about what you did in that house.
MR TAIT: Chairperson, as far as I can recall I entered the house, I went past a room where persons in pyjamas were lying on the floor, I went to the room right next door. As I can recall, Mr Ras and I encountered each other. I saw somebody on a bed. I don't know whether or not he was already dead or whether he had been shot, I fired one shot at him upon which I put my weapon away.
MR BOOYENS: And after that, although there were silencers on the weapons, you could still hear a feint noise of a gun being shot or fired.
MR TAIT: Yes, that's correct.
MR BOOYENS: Were any other shots fired within the house?
MR TAIT: As far as I can recall, I heard other shots being fired, however I cannot say who fired how many shots in whichever room, because everything happened too quickly.
MR BOOYENS: What was the light like?
MR TAIT: The light was very limited and we made use of torches in the house.
MR BOOYENS: Mr Tait, Mr Ras has also stated that he gave you instructions to ensure that there were other persons in the house while he was preparing the explosives. Can you recall such an instruction?
MR TAIT: I cannot recall it in memory, but I cannot dispute that he would have given such an instruction.
MR BOOYENS: And this would have been a logical instruction under the circumstances?
MR TAIT: Yes, that's correct.
MR BOOYENS: After the operation, did you hear that a total of six ......(end of tape) ... been killed?
MR TAIT: That's correct.
MR BOOYENS: And did this question or children and such, with regard to you, did you see anybody who resembled a child or were you in any way concerned that little ones had been shot?
MR TAIT: No, not according to me, according to me everybody appeared to be adult.
MR BOOYENS: And you have already discussed this to a certain degree, but your political motivation for your participation in this matter, which appears on page 91, would those be the reasons as set out there, that it was a PAC transit house and that the PAC was involved in an armed struggle with the Republic of South Africa, according to your knowledge?
MR TAIT: That is correct.
MR BOOYENS: And according to you, these PAC members who were armed, who came through, were responsible for violence in South Africa and that you as members of the Security Forces were involved in a war against them, is that correct?
MR TAIT: That's correct.
MR BOOYENS: And equivocally you were also convinced that the destruction of such a facility would complicate the PAC's activities and contribute to the decrease in violence in South Africa?
MR TAIT: Yes, that is correct.
MR BOOYENS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS
MR HATTINGH: We have no questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH
MR CORNELIUS: Wim Cornelius for Britz and Vermeulen, I have no questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS
MR JANSEN: Jansen, on behalf of applicant Ras. No questions, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN
MR WAGENER: Mr Chairman, Jan Wagener, I have no questions for this applicant.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, du Plessis on behalf of Mentz. I've got two questions, Mr Chairman.
Mr Tait, did you ever give an affidavit to the Attorney-General?
MR TAIT: No, I never, this is my only statement.
MR DU PLESSIS: If we can use the ordinary language, you never became a state witness?
MR TAIT: No, never, Chairperson.
MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Tait, the last question that I would like to ask regarding this incident, can you in any way recall anything more than what you have testified concerning what had been said to you regarding who would be present in the house?
MR TAIT: Chairperson, what I have testified is what I can remember.
MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS
MR LAMEY: No questions, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY
COUNSEL: No questions.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.
Mr Tait, there's just one aspect I'd like clarity on. You state in your application on page 91, as part of your political objective, that:
"The operation was also planned to eliminate any terrorists who would find themselves or be present in that house."
Now just a clarifying question, was there a distinction drawn at the time that instructions were given, between exactly who must be killed or was it a blanket instruction that everybody who was found in the house must be killed?
MR TAIT: As I understood it, it was that anyone who was present in the house had to be killed.
MS PATEL: Alright. Thank you, Sir.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL
MR BOOYENS: No re-examination, thanks Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS
MR SIBANYONI: No questions, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR BOOYENS: May Mr Tait be excused from further attendance, Mr Chairman?
CHAIRPERSON: Any objections? I take it he will be available if urgently required?
MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: He's not leaving the country?
MR BOOYENS: No, no, but he's leaving this part of the country most certainly, he's going to a place called "Witelsbos", which I understand you need a very good map if you want to find out where it is.
CHAIRPERSON: Well if we need him we'll send you to find him.
MR BOOYENS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
WITNESS EXCUSED
