ON RESUMPTION
CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon everybody. We are now going to hear the final hearing that has been set down, namely that of Messrs Chikane, Seloane and Maphetho. Before we start, I know some of you were here this morning when I introduced the panel, but for those who weren't, I would just like to introduce the panel to you. On my right is Adv Gcabashe, she is a member of the Amnesty Committee and she is an Advocate from Johannesburg. On my left is Mr Ilan Lax, also a member of the Amnesty Committee and he is an Attorney from Pietermaritzburg and I am Selwin Miller, also a member of the Amnesty Committee and I am a Judge of the High Court from the Eastern Cape, attached to the Transkei Division of that Court. I would like the legal representatives please to place themselves on record. Mr Koopedi?
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson, my name is Brian Koopedi, I am an Attorney in Pretoria, I am appearing on behalf of all three applicants, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Koopedi.
MR MAJUJA: Thank you Mr Chairperson, my name is Thabo Majuja and I am appearing on behalf of the victim's family, the Makhudu family. As it pleases the Court.
CHAIRPERSON: Could you just spell your surname please?
MR MAJUJA: It is Majuja.
MS MTANGA: I am Lulama Mtanga, the Evidence Leader for the Commission.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. Those people who haven't got these devices, the proceedings are simultaneously translated and if you want to benefit from the translation, please get one of these devices from the Sound Technician at the side of the hall. Mr Koopedi?
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, before I proceed, I would request that the applicants that appear before you, appear in another order as opposed to the order that is here.
CHAIRPERSON: Certainly we have no problem with that.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson. We will first start with Mr Akila Maphetho and I will ask that he be sworn in Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Maphetho, do you have any objection to taking the oath or would you prefer to make an affirmation?
MR MAPHETHO: I have no objection.
AKILA MANTSHANE MAPHETHO: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Koopedi?
EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Maphetho, is it correct that you are an applicant in this matter and that this application revolves around two incidents?
MR MAPHETHO: That is correct.
MR KOOPEDI: Is it also correct that these two incidents referred to the attempted murder on one George Mathebula which may have occurred around the 13th of October 1985?
MR MAPHETHO: That is correct.
MR KOOPEDI: And the other application relates to one Zenzile Makhudu, which incident occurred around the 22nd of January 1986?
MR MAPHETHO: That is correct.
MR KOOPEDI: Now, at this times, were you a member of the ANC?
MR MAPHETHO: That is correct.
MR KOOPEDI: In particular, were you a member of its armed wing, Umkhonto weSizwe?
MR MAPHETHO: That is correct.
MR KOOPEDI: Since when did you become a member of the ANC?
MR MAPHETHO: I became a member of the ANC in 1983, as from 1983.
MR KOOPEDI: Now, did you receive any military training from the ANC?
MR MAPHETHO: That is correct.
MR KOOPEDI: Where did you receive this training?
MR MAPHETHO: My first training was in Botswana, I don't remember the year, but it was in Botswana.
MR KOOPEDI: Now, did you have any operations that you were involved in inside the country?
MR MAPHETHO: Other than the two that we have mentioned, there were no other operations.
MR KOOPEDI: When these two incidents occurred, were you a member of a Unit or a cell?
MR MAPHETHO: Yes, that is correct.
MR KOOPEDI: And this was an MK cell, correct?
MR MAPHETHO: That is correct, it was an MK cell.
MR KOOPEDI: Did it have a name?
MR MAPHETHO: It was called Unit 1.
MR KOOPEDI: Who were the members of this Unit?
MR MAPHETHO: It was Stanza Bopape, Michael Seloane and myself.
MR KOOPEDI: Where was this Unit operative?
MR MAPHETHO: It was in Mamelodi.
MR KOOPEDI: That is in Pretoria, right?
MR MAPHETHO: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Who was the Commander of that Unit?
MR MAPHETHO: The Commander was Stanza Bopape, the late Stanza Bopape.
MR KOOPEDI: Who were the other members of this Unit?
INTERPRETER: May you please repeat your question?
MR LAX: Sorry Mr Koopedi, if you put the headphones on, you will be able to hear the Interpreter, because they are asking you to repeat the question please.
CHAIRPERSON: The question was who were the other members of the Unit, you have mentioned yourself and the second applicant in this matter, namely Michael Seloane. Was there anybody else besides the three of you who were members of Unit 1?
MR MAPHETHO: Yes, there were other members but they were just appendages to the Unit and others were Commanders of PWV, the other one was the Odirele Maponya. That was the Overall Commander of the Unit.
MR KOOPEDI: For clarity sake, you said Stanza Bopape was the Commander of your Unit, is that correct?
MR MAPHETHO: That is correct.
MR KOOPEDI: What was Odirele, what - was he commanding your Unit also?
MR MAPHETHO: Odirele Maponya was the Overall Commander of the PWV.
MR KOOPEDI: Do I understand you then to say that there would have been other Units in the area and he would be responsible for those Units, but for your Unit, Stanza would have been the Commander?
MR MAPHETHO: Yes, with my knowledge Odirele is the Overall Commander of the PWV area, but in our Unit, it was under the direct command of Stanza Bopape.
MR KOOPEDI: For the record sake, is it correct that both Mr Stanza Bopape and Odirele Maponya are no more with us today, they are no more alive?
MR MAPHETHO: That is correct.
MR KOOPEDI: Now, let's go to the attack on Mr Mathebula, George. Who gave the order for this attack?
MR MAPHETHO: That is Stanza Bopape.
MR KOOPEDI: Did he give any reasons for the order?
MR MAPHETHO: At that time, there was a campaign that the Police should be isolated, that was the part of the strategy that the Police should be isolated, then it happened that George was mentioned among those people who were notorious within the township, that is why he was one of the targets.
MR KOOPEDI: Could you explain what you mean by notorious?
MR MAPHETHO: When I say notorious, it is that in many instances we used to have meetings and then the Police used to harass people and shoot people and assault people, then it happened that George's name was mentioned as one of those notorious Policemen who used to attack the community.
MR KOOPEDI: So, he then became a target?
MR MAPHETHO: Yes. Though he was not alone. He was not isolated alone as a target, he was among the targets.
MR KOOPEDI: Okay. Now, who took part in the attack?
MR MAPHETHO: That is Michael Seloane and myself.
MR KOOPEDI: Could you briefly tell this Honourable Committee how the attack was executed?
MR MAPHETHO: What happened firstly, we went there and then we were able to locate his house, then we reconnoitred the yard and then we planned how we were going to attack the house. Then we planned again after the attack, how were we going to retreat. Then we were able to see how we would be able to succeed in that mission, then we went there to attack that particular house.
MR KOOPEDI: When you went there, was it the two of you?
MR MAPHETHO: Yes, the two of us.
MR KOOPEDI: What happened, what did you do when you reached his house?
MR MAPHETHO: When we arrived, we threw handgrenades in the house. After that, we retreated.
CHAIRPERSON: Could you give an indication of how many handgrenades were thrown into the house?
MR MAPHETHO: Two handgrenades
CHAIRPERSON: Did you each throw one?
MR MAPHETHO: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, when you say into the house, did you throw it through a closed window, an open window, through an open door, what do you mean you threw it into the house? Which part of the house?
MR MAPHETHO: The windows were closed and we threw two rooms, we stoned the house with bricks and then thereafter, we threw the handgrenades.
MR KOOPEDI: Okay. After throwing the handgrenades, what did you do?
MR MAPHETHO: Then we withdrew and we went back.
MR KOOPEDI: Did you see if anyone was injured?
MR MAPHETHO: We realised the following day that there were people who were injured.
MR KOOPEDI: After this attack, did you make a report to anyone?
MR MAPHETHO: After the attack, we reported.
MR KOOPEDI: To whom did you report?
MR MAPHETHO: We reported to Stanza Bopape.
MR KOOPEDI: Let's move to the second incident. When Mr Zenzile Makhudu was killed. Is it correct that this incident could have happened around the 22nd of January 1986?
MR MAPHETHO: That is correct.
MR KOOPEDI: Who gave the order that this person must be attacked?
MR MAPHETHO: That is the late Odirele Maponya.
MR KOOPEDI: If your Commander was Stanza, why would you then receive an order from someone higher up?
MR MAPHETHO: It happened that Stanza Bopape at that time was detained, then I was working under the direct command of Mensday, that is Odirele Maponya.
MR KOOPEDI: So, does it mean that you replaced Stanza as a Commander of Unit 1 or simply that you just started receiving commands from the late Mensday?
MR MAPHETHO: Yes, I took the position of Stanza Bopape as the Commander of Unit 1.
MR KOOPEDI: Okay. Who took part in this attack?
MR MAPHETHO: That is Lazarus Chikane and myself.
MR KOOPEDI: Lazarus Chikane is one of your co-applicants, is that correct?
MR MAPHETHO: That is correct.
MR KOOPEDI: Now, you have told this Honourable Committee about the members of your Unit, could you tell this Honourable Committee how Lazarus Chikane was related to your Unit?
MR MAPHETHO: In that same year, the order came from the ANC that the Units which were inside the country, should expand, therefore we had to recruit more people so as to enhance the Units within the country. That is why I recruited Lazarus. Then we were able to continue with the operation.
MR KOOPEDI: Could you tell this Committee what happened on the day of the attack?
MR MAPHETHO: On the day of the attack, I went to the particular house. I reconnoitred the house then I saw his car entering, then I was convinced that he was in the house. Then I returned back, I met Lazarus and thereafter we went to his house and attacked.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Koopedi, sorry to interrupt, you mentioned that Mr Mathebula George was a target because his name was mentioned in meetings and it was part of this programme to isolate the Police. What was the reason for Zenzile Makhudu to become a target?
MR MAPHETHO: The reasons are the same because Zenzile was one of those people who were harassing the people, then he was telling people openly that Mamelodi Youth Organisation and UDF, as long as he is still present or still alive, they are going to be extinct. That made him to be an enemy of the community.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson. When the attack occurred, only two people were present, is that correct? Yourself and Lazarus?
MR MAPHETHO: That is correct.
MR KOOPEDI: What happened exactly, please tell this Committee?
CHAIRPERSON: The question was could you please tell the Committee what happened in the attack, describe the attack.
MR MAPHETHO: During the attack as I have already mentioned that we threw two grenades in two bedrooms. After we threw those handgrenades, then we withdrew. The following day when we listened to the news, we learnt that Zenzile together with his wife were injured, and then later we learnt that Zenzile had died.
MR KOOPEDI: Were you, when you executed these attacks, I am referring to the two of them, did you consider that there might be other people in their company?
MR MAPHETHO: According to the information we had at the time, we knew that George was usually alone and then we knew that Zenzile also was alone at all times, unfortunately it happened that the people who were there, were caught in the cross-fire. That is how I can put it, but it is not our intention or the intention of the ANC or of MK to kill innocent people.
MR KOOPEDI: If there were, if there were people as it appears from the documents before us that there were people in their presence, would you like your application to encompass whatever harm that could have befallen those people?
MR MAPHETHO: Yes, that is correct, I want to include those people who were caught in the cross-fire. It was not our intention or the intention of the ANC or of MK to injure or to attack innocent people, but it was the intention of the ANC and MK to attack the Police. It happened unfortunately during a war situation, it happens that there would be people who are not part of the warring factions who would be caught in the cross-fire and they would be injured or killed. That is one of the things which made me to come forward and apply for amnesty before this Commission.
MR KOOPEDI: Okay, now for these two operations, did you receive any personal gain, were you paid?
MR MAPHETHO: I did not receive any personal benefit.
MR KOOPEDI: Do you think that you have fully disclosed all the material facts, relevant facts, in these two applications before this Honourable Committee?
MR MAPHETHO: Yes.
MR KOOPEDI: From your evidence, could you say that these two attacks were politically motivated?
MR MAPHETHO: Yes, that is correct.
MR KOOPEDI: In your mind, do you think that any political objective was achieved by these two incidents?
MR MAPHETHO: Yes, that is correct.
MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, that concludes the evidence in chief of this applicant, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Koopedi. Mr Majuja, do you have any questions that you would like to put to this applicant?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAJUJA: Yes, Mr Chairman, I have got several questions to ask the applicant. Could you tell us when did this incident happen, the attack of Mr Zenzile Makhudu's house?
MR MAPHETHO: Though I am not able to remember the actual date, but it happened in 1985 towards the end. MR MAJUJA: But we have the evidence from the inquest that
was held with regard to this killing, that this person's death was in 1986.
MR MAPHETHO: Are you talking about Zenzile?
MR MAJUJA: Yes.
MR MAPHETHO: As I have stated that I am not able to remember the actual date, but I accept that I am responsible for the death of Zenzile.
CHAIRPERSON: I think when Mr Koopedi was asking you questions at the start of this incident, he asked you whether or not the incident occurred on the 2nd of January 1986 and you said yes?
MR MAPHETHO: I said yes, because it is stated in the documents, but as I say that I am not able to remember the actual date.
CHAIRPERSON: As far as you are concerned, it happened late 1985 or early 1986, somewhere around there?
MR MAPHETHO: Towards the end of 1985, that is when we executed the first operation and then the January one, is the one, is the operation towards Zenzile.
CHAIRPERSON: I don't think anything really material turns on the actual precise date.
MR MAJUJA: Actually Chairperson, I think I am satisfied with the way he has responded.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR MAJUJA: You later told this hearing that there was an order from the ANC that your cells should expand and as I understand from the evidence that you have already given, you were like three in your Unit, does the word expand mean that you had to recruit only one member?
MR MAPHETHO: No, it doesn't explain that. When I mean to expand, it says whoever, any member who is in the Unit, should go and recruit people who would be part of that Unit. If he found those people, he must not come and tell members of other Units, so that there should be a mood of secrecy.
MR MAJUJA: Can you tell us at what time did you want to check Mr Makhudu's house?
MR MAPHETHO: I am not able to remember the dates, but I did do the reconnoitring the same day, but I don't remember the same dates.
CHAIRPERSON: What time of the day, were you there in the morning, early morning, lunch time, the evening, night time?
MR MAPHETHO: I did reconnoitring in the morning and again during the day and in the afternoon.
MR MAJUJA: Can you tell us, okay, at night, at what time, that is what I am concerned with?
MR MAPHETHO: I am not able to remember the actual time.
MR MAJUJA: At the time when you saw Zenzile's car getting into his yard, at what time was it?
MR MAPHETHO: I don't remember what time was it.
CHAIRPERSON: Was it daylight or dusk?
MR MAPHETHO: It was at night.
MR MAJUJA: You have told this Commission that Zenzile was one of the people who were harassing the people of Mamelodi, is that correct?
MR MAPHETHO: Yes, that is correct.
MR MAJUJA: And you said that he openly said that he was going to deal with the UDF and other organisations in the community?
MR MAPHETHO: Yes, that is correct.
MR MAJUJA: When did he make those statements?
MR MAPHETHO: I would not actually say when, but he was at Maseko's shopping centre, he was telling people loudly. Then on that day I was present, I heard him saying so.
MR MAJUJA: Okay, in your application for amnesty, if you can check on page 4, what your justification for regarding such acts as political objective.
MR LAX: Mr Majuja, is that page 18 of the Bundle?
MR MAJUJA: Yes, Mr Chairperson. In the statement you are saying that the two Policemen were well known among the Mamelodi community as killers of our people, but now you are saying that they were harassing. What is the difference between harassment and killing?
MR MAPHETHO: You can harass a person by beating a person, you can harass the people by throwing the teargas on them and you can harass them by killing them. When you assault people and when you kill them, those who are around those, are harassed.
MR MAJUJA: ... evidence that Zenzile Makhudu had killed some of the community members?
MR MAPHETHO: I don't have evidence to that regard as to whether, whom did he kill, but I am saying the Police who were in Mamelodi, there were those who were killed by them.
MR MAJUJA: In your statement you are saying the two Policemen, you are talking about George and Zenzile, is that not correct?
MR MAPHETHO: Yes, that is correct.
MR MAJUJA: You are saying that they were known amongst the Mamelodi community as killers, why did you write that if you are not in agreement with that?
MR MAPHETHO: I said they were known as killers. That is what I am saying, that the Police were killing people, then it may happen that George and Zenzile were known as killers, because even in the meetings, they would sing songs with them and then in the meetings the people requested that these people should be killed. According to Mamelodi residents, in this particular case, I quote these two people, because I am applying amnesty for the attacks. Those are some of the people who were regarded as killers by Mamelodi residents.
MR MAJUJA: There is a sentence where you say that as a result the Mamelodi Committee, I want to know what is that Committee that you are talking about here, the Mamelodi Committee that took the decision that these people should be removed from society?
MR MAPHETHO: It was not a formal meeting, but during the rallies and during the meetings when people sing slogans and when they lodge complaints, they would talk about people who were harassing them as people who were playing a leading role in the harassments and among the names mentioned, was Zenzile and George and others.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Maphetho, what you are being asked is, you mentioned here just to quote from here
"... as a result the Mamelodi Committee demanded their immediate removal."
Now, was there such a thing as a Mamelodi Committee and he is asking you about this Committee, what was this Mamelodi Committee because a Committee is normally an identifiable group of persons who regularly meet in order to pursue a particular object.
MR MAPHETHO: At that time, we used to have a forum and during the meetings of this forum, when we discuss about Mamelodi problems, in those forums the comment would be made that there are people who are troublesome and MK is not happy about Zenzile and Sinke and George but MK is not doing anything in that regard. Those are the various Committees which used to raise problems as to whether why is MK not solving the community's problems.
CHAIRPERSON: Could any citizen of Mamelodi attend these meetings or was it restricted to certain people only who could attend those meetings?
MR MAPHETHO: In various sections, there were Committees and then they would send delegations to the General Committee within Mamelodi.
MR MAJUJA: Was this an order from the Mamelodi Committee?
MR MAPHETHO: As I have stated that the people I am talking about as members of this Committee, it was their complaints that these people should be removed from Mamelodi because they were troublesome and I as a member of the ANC, and then as a member of MK, I was fighting on behalf of the people, so the complaints of the people are my complaints, and as a member of MK, I had to defend or protect the community against any attacker, and especially the person who was attacking the people in defence of the apartheid system.
MR MAJUJA: Do you know the Unit that Mr Makhudu was working for while he was a Policeman?
MR MAPHETHO: What I knew is that he was a member of the Special Branch, as to whether where, I did not have full details. But he was always going all out and telling people that he will deal thoroughly with UDF and Youth Organisations in Mamelodi.
MR MAJUJA: So will I be correct if I say that you were not sure that he was in the CID or a Special Branch member?
MR MAPHETHO: As I have already stated that I did not know as to whether he was a CID or a member of the Special Branch. But what made him to be among the target, is his comments before the people. As I have stated that it was a campaign that the Police should be isolated. In short it meant that each and every Policeman, as long as he defends apartheid, became a target. Isolation can mean many things, you can isolate them in the real sense of isolating them, it may be isolation in the sense that they should be removed from society be attacking them and killing them.
MR MAJUJA: Let's go back to the place where this whole incident took place. You said that you threw in two handgrenades into the house or one into each room?
CHAIRPERSON: You are talking about the Makhudu incident?
MR MAJUJA: Yes, the Makhudu incident. Is that correct?
MR MAPHETHO: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Before you proceed Mr Majuja, can I just get some information, these handgrenades, could you describe what they were, their potency, what type of grenades they were?
MR MAPHETHO: The handgrenades are those we call a defensive and offensive handgrenades and both of them have high potency. But defensive grenades have more power because it goes into splinters when it blasts and even offensive handgrenades has power also.
CHAIRPERSON: What did you use in that particular attack, were you using defensive grenades or offensive?
MR MAPHETHO: We used both of them.
CHAIRPERSON: One of each?
MR MAPHETHO: Yes, that is correct.
MR MAJUJA: Who was handling which one, who was handling the offensive and who was handling the defensive one?
MR MAPHETHO: I had a defensive handgrenade and my colleague had an offensive handgrenade.
MR MAJUJA: And this defensive one, where was it thrown?
MR MAPHETHO: In the bedroom where the deceased was killed.
MR MAJUJA: Was the window closed or open at that time when you threw this handgrenade in?
MR MAPHETHO: The window was closed.
MR MAJUJA: So how did you manage to throw the handgrenade into the house?
MR MAPHETHO: I had a brick, I broke the window panes and then thereafter I threw the handgrenade inside.
CHAIRPERSON: Were there curtains across the window?
MR MAPHETHO: I don't remember about curtains because it was at night, what I know is that I broke the window and then I threw the handgrenade.
CHAIRPERSON: From what range Mr Maphetho, more or less?
MR MAPHETHO: I didn't throw the brick, I used it to break the window.
MR MAJUJA: How did you throw it?
MR MAPHETHO: From there I threw the handgrenade.
MR MAJUJA: Were you like placing it or throwing it inside?
MR MAPHETHO: I threw it inside.
MR MAJUJA: I don't understand, you threw it or you just placed it, that is what I want to know?
MR MAPHETHO: I said I threw it.
MR MAJUJA: With force or minimal force?
MR MAPHETHO: There was no need to throw it with force because I was near the window.
MR MAJUJA: How did you know that there were two people inside the house?
MR MAPHETHO: I did not know that there were two people inside the house.
MR MAJUJA: Did you report this incident immediately?
MR MAPHETHO: Yes, I did.
MR MAJUJA: Whom did you report it to?
MR MAPHETHO: I reported to Mainstay, that is Odirele Maponya.
MR MAJUJA: Can you tell us approximately how long was the whole operation?
MR MAPHETHO: It didn't take a long time, what happened is that we arrived there, I broke the window and then we threw the handgrenades, and then we withdrew.
MR MAJUJA: You know, if you can look at the Bundle there, there is a statement by, I think it is page 32, no page 26 Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: It is a statement by Warrant Officer Rossouw Mashabane, is that right?
MR MAJUJA: There is something very interesting there, if you look at paragraph 1, the Officer talks about having been told about this incident by a certain Le Roux, Lieutenant Le Roux, how could Lieutenant Le Roux have known about this incident if you didn't report it?
CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps, just for the record Mr Maphetho, this paragraph 1 says, this is a statement by Warrant Officer Mashabane, he says
"... on the night of the 22nd January 1986, I was on duty. Sergeant Maposa was my crew, we arrived at Mamelodi charge office at 03H50 (I think it is, the early hours of the morning) on the 23rd of January 1986 and Lieutenant Le Roux of the Riot Squad told me that there had been an explosion at house 4440, Block M."
The question was, how would Lieutenant Le Roux have known about the explosion if you had not reported it to the Police?
MR MAPHETHO: I don't know how he knew, but when we executed our operations, we usually reported to our Commanders, not the Police.
MR MAJUJA: The F1 handgrenade, the defensive one, when it explodes, you explained there is some splinters from that, is that correct?
MR MAPHETHO: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Shrapnel I think is the word, yes.
MR MAJUJA: Shrapnels?
MR MAPHETHO: Yes.
MR MAJUJA: So as you were an active member of MK, so I think maybe you might be able to help me, if maybe you are two in the room and with this kind of a handgrenade being thrown at us, would it not injure all of us?
MR MAPHETHO: Yes, it will.
MR MAJUJA: And you say that you heard the following day that there were two people in the house?
MR MAPHETHO: That is correct.
MR MAJUJA: And the other one was deceased?
MR MAPHETHO: That is correct.
MR MAJUJA: Would you be able maybe to guide as us to why is it like that?
MR MAPHETHO: How?
MR MAJUJA: I just want to, maybe you can help me, you know, because that is what the family wants to know.
CHAIRPERSON: What the witness said was that they threw the two grenades in and then they later learnt that two people had been injured and then they again later learnt, that one of them Zenzile, died. That is what he says, so we don't know whether they were in the same room or different rooms or whether - he just heard that two people were injured. I don't think the witness said that there were only two people in the house, he said he heard that there were two injured.
MR MAJUJA: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Furthermore, the handgrenade, the offensive handgrenade, in which room was it thrown into?
MR MAPHETHO: It was thrown in the front bedroom.
MR MAJUJA: So it exploded inside that room?
MR MAPHETHO: What I know is that the offensive one exploded before the defensive one.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Maphetho, when you threw these grenades in, did they immediately blow up or did they roll on the floor and then after a while, after a time span, blow or did they blow on contact with hitting the ground or whatever they hit inside the bedroom?
MR MAPHETHO: It does not explode immediately, but it doesn't take a long time.
MR MAJUJA: But you know I don't know whether your Counsel has got hold of the inquest report that was made with regard to this killing. If you look at, did you have it in your possession?
MR MAPHETHO: Yes, I have it.
MR MAJUJA: It clearly shows that the offensive handgrenade exploded next to the wall, I don't know what you call it, a (indistinct) in English?
CHAIRPERSON: Next to the?
ADV GCABASHE : Concrete fence, next to the concrete fence.
CHAIRPERSON: Outside?
MR MAJUJA: Yes.
MR LAX: Sorry Mr Majuja, you have some photographs there that we don't have, I am afraid.
MR MAJUJA: If it pleases this Committee, I don't have a problem of handing them in because it is the intention of the victim's family to submit them.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. What you are putting to the witness is that the offensive grenade blew outside the house, not inside the house?
MR MAJUJA: Not inside the house.
CHAIRPERSON: Next to the concrete wall which goes around the edge of the garden? What do you say to that Mr Maphetho?
MR MAPHETHO: I said if you are in an operation, after you have done an operation, there is no time to observe as to whether your target was hit or not. What I said is we threw two handgrenades.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you not disputing the fact that one of them might have exploded in the garden next to the wall?
MR MAPHETHO: Yes, I don't dispute that and again, I don't agree with it.
CHAIRPERSON: The one that you threw, you yourself personally, you say you threw it into, because you were close, next to the window and you broke the window with a brick and you threw it into the room so the one that landed in the garden from what you tell us, would obviously not have been the one that you were throwing?
MR MAPHETHO: Yes, that is not the one I threw.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you see Lazarus throw his grenade?
MR MAPHETHO: I did not see him because he was outside, I was inside. He threw. I heard by the sound that he threw his handgrenade, but I didn't see where.
MR MAJUJA: But you as a Commander of the Unit, will I be correct if I say that you were the one who came with the order to eliminate Zenzile?
MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, with respect, this witness has testified that he received orders from Odirele.
CHAIRPERSON: He said he received orders from Mr Maponya.
MR MAJUJA: Mr Chairperson ...
CHAIRPERSON: And that he was the leader of the actual attack operation on the ground.
MR MAJUJA: Mr Chairperson, if it was possible for the late Mr Bopape to issue an order ...
CHAIRPERSON: Maponya. Was it Maponya? I think Bopape was the first incident on George.
MR MAJUJA: Yes, actually I am just trying to compare the two incidents, Your Worship, Mr Chairperson. Like, if it was possible for Mr Bopape to issue a command to go and eliminate somebody, why were you not in the position to do so because you were the Commander of that particular Unit, Unit 1?
MR MAPHETHO: I don't understand your question.
MR MAJUJA: Mr Bopape issued a command ...
CHAIRPERSON: What he said Mr Majuja is, and correct me Mr Maphetho if I am wrong, he said that they had a Unit 1, initially it had the three members he mentioned, including Mr Bopape and himself and the other applicant.
MR KOOPEDI: Seloane Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And of that Unit, Mr Bopape was the Commander and then when it came to the Zenzile, the Makhudu operation, Mr Bopape was not available, he was in detention, that is why the order came from Mr Maponya.
MR MAJUJA: But Mr Chairperson, what I understand is that the applicant has said that he replaced Bopape, meaning that he was the Commander of that Unit.
CHAIRPERSON: Well, let's put it to him. Did you become the Commander of Unit 1 in the absence of Mr Bopape?
MR MAPHETHO: Yes, I said so because I was, at that time I was working with Odirele.
CHAIRPERSON: Right now, the question put by Mr Majuja is in that event, you said that when Mr Bopape was the Commander, he could make the decision himself, he gave the order himself as in the Mathebula incident, now he wants to know seeing that you were the Commander standing as it were, in the shoes of Mr Bopape, why did you have to receive orders from Mr Maponya, why didn't you make the order yourself, is that the thrust of your question Mr Majuja?
MR MAJUJA: Yes Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: In other words why didn't Mr Maponya also order the Mathebula incident?
MR MAPHETHO: I would explain it this way. In the Unit, the Commander is a Commander of that particular Unit and that Unit, there would be another Commander who is above him. Stanza was receiving orders from Maponya and then Bopape would transfer those commands to the Unit. If the Commander dies of a particular Unit or he is not present at that particular time, there would be somebody who would be in command at that particular Unit and then that particular person would receive commands from a higher Commander. There will be no Commander who acts independently. If Stanza was present during the Zenzile attack, the order would come from Stanza Bopape and then Stanza Bopape could have received the order from Odirele Maponya.
MR MAJUJA: Thank you for that answer. You said that, you told this Committee that you were sorry about the whole incident. Is that correct?
MR MAPHETHO: Yes, because I have stated that there were people who were attacked and they were not members of the Security Forces, it happened that they were caught in a cross-fire.
MR MAJUJA: What made you actually to come to this Committee to ask for amnesty?
MR MAPHETHO: The reason is that apartheid has been removed and then we have Truth and Reconciliation Commission. I wanted to be part of that Truth and Reconciliation Commission, that people should disclose about the past, the conflict of the past and that we will be able to build the new South Africa together, that we should forgive one another and start building the new nation.
MR MAJUJA: Besides your Unit, who knew about this incident?
MR MAPHETHO: We are talking about two incidents, which one are you referring to?
MR MAJUJA: The Makhudu incident?
MR MAPHETHO: No one knew about this incident.
CHAIRPERSON: Well, Mr Maponya would have known about it and then afterwards it would have become well known because it was in the newspapers?
MR MAPHETHO: (No translation)
MR MAJUJA: So obviously because you were never arrested and there are no pending charges against you, why did you have to disclose it? I just want to know your motive for why? I am not satisfied with the answer that you gave me, that you ...
MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, with respect, this witness has in evidence in chief explained why he came before this Committee. A few minutes ago the same question was put to him as to why he came before this Committee, he gave a very clear explanation why he came here and I feel this question is unfair.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think Mr Majuja, I can tell you from experience in these matters that many, many applicants have come
forward and disclosed incidents that they have been involved in in respect of which they have never been arrested or charged or even suspected of having been committed and that they also have said that they have done it in the spirit of reconciliation and the building of a new nation.
MR MAJUJA: Thank you Chairperson. I don't have further questions for this witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAJUJA
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Majuja. Do you have any questions, Ms Mtanga?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson, about two questions. Mr Maphetho, in the statement made by Mr Mathebula he stated there that he was actually surprised as to why he was attacked by your Unit because he was only in charge of charge office duties, he was only at the charge office of the Police. Were you aware, were you personally aware of what activities would have made Mr Makhudu a target for your Unit?
MR MAPHETHO: We don't know as to whether who works in the charge office or who works in the field, but what we know is that all Police at that particular time, as I stated, is that they were regarded as enemies of the people because they were supporting apartheid. As I stated, is that this two people which I
have attacked, they happened to be among the Police according to the community, who were regarded as their enemy.
MS MTANGA: The attack on Mr Mathebula took place on the 13th of October 1985, did you carry out any reconnaissance on that day, that is prior to the attack?
MR MAPHETHO: That is correct.
MS MTANGA: What time was this, can you remember, what time of the day was it?
MR MAPHETHO: My reconnaissance were done during the day and during the night.
MS MTANGA: In the affidavit of Mr Mathebula he states that he was at home with his ex-wife and his mother. My concern is if you had done reconnaissance and your intention was not to injure innocent people, his ex-wife and the mother were innocent people and if you had done reconnaissance, you would have known that there were these people in the house? What do you say to this?
MR MAPHETHO: My response is that when you are sent to do investigations and you bring the information gathered, you would not rule out the possibilities that at a particular time, it may not be complete, that is why even in a war situation, people who are injured ordinarily, are people who are not involved in that particular war. It was not out intention to kill his ex-wife or his mother or anyone who is not involved in the Police activities.
MS MTANGA: No further questions, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Do you have any re-examination?
MR KOOPEDI: Nothing in re-examination Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI
CHAIRPERSON: Adv Gcabashe, do you have any questions you would like to ask the applicant?
ADV GCABASHE : Thank you Chair. Mr Maphetho, just explain to me again with regards Mr Makhudu's house, you arrived there with Mr Chikane, yes?
MR MAPHETHO: That is correct.
ADV GCABASHE : You were the first one to act, you broke the window and threw the handgrenade into the bedroom?
MR MAPHETHO: If I remember well, I was not the first one to act. Maybe our attack was simultaneous, but I don't remember quite well as to whether who attacked first, but what I know is that I threw my handgrenade where he was sleeping.
ADV GCABASHE : You see, the reason I ask is because of the issue of the concrete fence, that one of the handgrenades landed near the concrete fence, all right, and you said in your evidence that Lazarus was outside and you were inside, all right?
MR MAPHETHO: Let me explain this way.
ADV GCABASHE : Okay. MR MAPHETHO: When you talk about George, you should talk about George and then when you address about Zenzile, you must mention Zenzile because I only know of the surnames now because I didn't know their surnames, I only know them as George and Zenzile. When you put a question sometimes I become confused as to whether which incident you are talking about.
CHAIRPERSON: We are talking about the Zenzile incident in this case, the Zenzile incident, the second one.
MR MAPHETHO: During the Zenzile attack, Lazarus threw the handgrenade first and then I threw my handgrenade second.
ADV GCABASHE : That is exactly where I need a bit of clarity, you said that Lazarus was outside and you were inside, that is I assume in relation to the concrete fence - hold on, hold on, don't rush, let's do this slowly, otherwise I am going to miss it completely - he was outside the yard and you were inside the yard, you had the concrete fence between you, yes?
MR MAPHETHO: That is correct.
ADV GCABASHE : Now explain to me from that point, you threw your handgrenade first and then he threw his, is that the order?
MR MAPHETHO: I said he threw his handgrenade first.
ADV GCABASHE : Okay, his handgrenade landed up next to the concrete fence on the basis of what Mr Majuja put to you, do you remember this, because you must have been inside the yard at that point?
MR MAPHETHO: As I have already stated that after the operation, you do not have time to make some observations as to whether, where did you hit. After the operations you withdraw immediately.
INTERPRETER: I don't think he did understand your questions.
CHAIRPERSON: While we wait, when the handgrenades were thrown, were the lights out, were the people inside apparently asleep or were the lights still on and people apparently still awake?
MR MAPHETHO: The lights were off.
MR LAX: Can I just ask, in that bundle of papers, is there a plan of the place to show where the various explosions were, with a map of the wall and so on, so that we can get a picture.
MR MAJUJA: Mr Chairperson, I can submit that if you want to see that, I don't have a problem with that.
MR LAX: Because that would help explain, that would help the witness to orientate himself as to where he was and where the other person was and so on.
ADV GCABASHE : Anyway, I must be honest, I am still not clear. Maybe Mr Koopedi will be able to assist, he might understand my difficulty because as I understand it, if you were inside the yard and Mr Chikane threw his grenade after you had thrown yours, or before, I beg your pardon, before, you would have been injured in that explosion, you would have noticed, you would have seen that explosion, but maybe you need to explain the sequence of events just a little better, just to assist us understand the timing of the devices, why you were confident that even if he threw his first and it landed outside, it wouldn't explode first. You know, maybe that is the area that is a bit grey and that I certainly don't quite understand.
CHAIRPERSON: And also whether the explosions both took place at the same side of the house.
MR KOOPEDI: If I may come to your assistance, excuse me, I seem to agree with the suggestion by Honourable Committee member, Mr Lax, that if we had a picture or a map of the place, it would be easy to deal with the question, because from what I understood from the evidence, is that he went inside and when he was inside, the other one was left outside and he went to the bedroom window, although he did not specify which bedroom window, but it could have been any, which means in my mind, it could have been a bedroom window behind the house perhaps or not on the same side of the wall, because I am not sure on which side was Mr Maphetho.
CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps we can ask Mr Maphetho, Mr Maphetho, we know that two explosions went off and we know that the handgrenade that you threw, you know landed inside the house because you were standing next to the window, in relation to where you were standing at that window when you threw in that grenade, do you know where about the other explosion took place? We know it was outside next to the wall, but where was it, was it behind you, was it on the same side of the house, the other side of the house? If you don't know, just say so.
MR MAPHETHO: Let me explain it this way, for the first handgrenade to explode, it was not an accident, it was a plan because I instructed him that he should throw his one, his first. Then after his one exploded, I would throw my handgrenade and then at the point where I was, his handgrenade would not affect me in relation to where I was standing.
CHAIRPERSON: Why would it not affect you?
MR MAPHETHO: The handgrenade which he threw, it affects you with the cartridges. There is a wall and then there is, if you throw it in front, then being at the back, there will be no way which it will affect me.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying it wasn't on the same side of the house where you were standing?
MR MAPHETHO: He was outside the yard, but I was at the back, next to the window and then when he threw his handgrenade, it would not affect me, and even if that person is behind the house, that handgrenade would not affect that particular person.
MS MTANGA: Chairperson, if I may come in, we have some photocopies of the photographs of the house and I have asked the Investigator to make copies of them, I think they might assist the Committee.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Adv Gcabashe, do you have any other questions?
ADV GCABASHE : Yes, one other aspect. You spoke of the community wanting these people and I understand that you meant Policemen, to be removed from the Mamelodi community and in your application you speak about "remove from society", what was the intention here, or what did the Mamelodi community say? Was it removal from society as eliminate, kill or removal from that particular community so that they can move on and go and live somewhere else where they would not bother the Mamelodi community, or was it both, can you explain that to me?
MR MAPHETHO: When the Mamelodi, as soldiers we regarded ourselves as the people's army. If the people were saying that these people should be removed from society, to our standing it meant that they should be attacked.
ADV GCABASHE : That is precisely my question, was the issue that they should be removed from society or that they should be removed from the Mamelodi community?
MR MAPHETHO: To put it straight, it meant that they should be killed.
ADV GCABASHE : Thank you. Thank you Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: I think at this stage we can say that it concludes your testimony. Sorry, I forgot to ask Mr Koopedi, questions arising out of questions put by the panel?
MR KOOPEDI: You were correct Chairperson, that should conclude his evidence.
CHAIRPERSON: You don't have any questions arising out of questions put?
MR KOOPEDI: I have no questions save to perhaps mention something which may have missed your attention in that particularly around the question of where was he standing. I seem to have heard him say in his evidence that when he heard that, rather he said "I knew that he (referring to lazarus) had thrown the handgrenade because I heard", this in my mind tells me that he did not see it, he was not on the same side and that goes on to explain why he would not have been injured. I am just trying to go to the difficulty that Adv Gcabashe had earlier on, thank you Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Majuja, do you have any questions arising out of questions that were put by the panel?
MR MAJUJA: At this time I don't have any questions, Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAJUJA
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga, do you have any questions arising?
MS MTANGA: No questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: We have arranged for lunch to be at half past one, so we have quarter of an hour, I think let's, if we could commence with the evidence of the next applicant and then we will break at half past one.
INTERPRETER: The Interpreters request (indistinct)
CHAIRPERSON: The Interpreters, okay, I have received another request from the Interpreters, well, perhaps then we will
adjourn for lunch now and see if we can resume at quarter to two, provide lunch, would that be convenient?
MR KOOPEDI: That is convenient for us Chairperson, even if we could have a shorter lunch, we have no problems.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, we will now adjourn for lunch and try our best to start again at quarter to two.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. During the lunch interval, we were handed some photographs and a description of the points indicated in the photographs and it would seem that the photograph, the explosion that took place next to the fence, is explosion (a) and the explosion described by Mr Maphetho, if one looks at the first page of the handgrenade that was thrown through the bedroom window, is (f). Our photo's, we don't actually have a (f), but it is clear that points (a), (b) are on the same side of the house and (f) must have been on another side of the house which would explain the fact that no shrapnel from (a) hit Mr Maphetho. I think it is fairly clear from this. Mr Koopedi?
MR MAJUJA: Mr Chairperson, may I intervene before we proceed? Mr Chairperson, during the course of this day, especially during the hearing, if this Honourable Committee understands, I asked one question twice, why are we here and the answer was given that it was to reconcile and even the Honourable Chairperson even assisted the applicant. You even mentioned one instance that happened earlier this year, I wish that the applicant should take into consideration that we have got kids of the deceased among us here and then to go out and just talking about that, you don't care, you know like, you are not scared of anything, it shows that there is no remorse, especially on the part of the first applicant who has already given evidence and I want this Honourable Committee to take this into consideration when they make their decision with regard to this, (indistinct) of the first witness.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Majuja. Mr Koopedi?
MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, I am a little at sea, I am not sure what my learned friend is referring to and I believe this Committee will consider you know, in making its decision, will consider evidence that is before it. I am not sure what my learned friend is referring to.
CHAIRPERSON: We've got to consider these applications in terms of the criteria contained in the Act, which criteria I think we all are aware of, that is political objective, full disclosure and whether the application complies with the requirements of the Act, the question of remorse isn't actually one of the criteria for the granting or refusal of amnesty.
MR KOOPEDI: May I just say Chairperson, and without belabouring the issue, that the first applicant explained why he came here, the first applicant explained why he says he is sorry and with respect, I do not understand my learned friend's utterances.
MR MAJUJA: I don't know whether my learned colleague wants me to respond to that? Actually I am referring to an incident that happened when we left this hall, when we went for a break. The applicant who has already, Mr Maphetho, uttered a statement that he was not scared and if the family of the victim wants to fight, he doesn't care, he is not scared. I think the purpose of us being here, is to reconcile.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly one would hope that that would be one of the effects of an application of this nature. We have noted what you have said. Mr Koopedi?
MR KOOPEDI: No Chairperson, I do not want to comment on this issue.
