CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody, I apologise for the late start. The reason was that the bringing of Mr de Kock from the Correctional Services was delayed. Yesterday we concluded the evidence of Gen van der Merwe and now I'm told, the evidence of Brig Schoon will be led, is that correct?
MS LOCKHAT: That is correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR VISSER: Brig Schoon is available to take the oath, Chairperson.
WILLEM FREDERICK SCHOON: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser?
MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Good morning, Mr Chairman. Before you, you will find a statement by Brig Schoon, I'm told that it will be Exhibit E, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, yes. Has everybody got a copy of the statement? This will then be received as Exhibit EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.
Brigadier Schoon, you are also applying for amnesty in this atter, is that correct?
BRIG SCHOON: Yes, that is correct.
MR VISSER: Your amnesty application is in bundle 1, page 148 to 239, is that correct?
BRIG SCHOON: Yes.
MR VISSER: Previously you have studied Exhibit A and with previous amnesty applications you have already confirmed the content thereof, do you once again confirm the content?
BRIG SCHOON: Yes, that is correct.
MR VISSER: As well as the evidence to which is referred in that document?
BRIG SCHOON: Yes.
MR VISSER: Previously you've also given evidence yourself on the 19th of November 1996, in terms of a subpoena relating to Section 29, also on the 9th of October during the Armed Forces hearing in 1997. Is that correct?
BRIG SCHOON: Yes, that is correct.
MR VISSER: And do you also confirm then the content of your evidence which was previously given as well as the content of your application except insofar as there may be explanations or amendments made by you today, as being true and correct?
BRIG SCHOON: Yes.
MR VISSER: Can we go to page 3 of Exhibit E. Please begin at paragraph 1 and take the Committee through the document.
BRIG SCHOON
"This incident is an incident which was submitted by Gen J V van der Merwe on the 21st of October 1996, to the Amnesty Committee, in the applications of Brig J Cronje and four others which have been referred to above.
I also request that the evidence which Gen van der Merwe will deliver before this Amnesty Committee, or which has been delivered before this Amnesty Committee, be incorporated into my application."
MR VISSER: Now Brigadier, when you completed your amnesty application, did you have an independent recollection of the date upon which these events took place?
BRIG SCHOON: No, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And who did you consult in order to say in your application that the incident took place in 1986?
BRIG SCHOON: In the documents which were submitted by Brig Cronje.
MR VISSER: And you had insight into those documents?
BRIG SCHOON: Yes, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And is that the reason why you also said 1986, while we all know now that it was actually 1985?
BRIG SCHOON: Yes, that is correct.
MR VISSER: And this also let to another error on your behalf, but we will get to that shortly. Mr Chairman, paragraph 3, could I ask you to strike it out, it is a mistake on my part. It's a confusion between who the deceased persons were and who the injured persons were, but it's purely a mistake on my part and I only realised this morning that I haven't rectified it. I beg your pardon for that.
CHAIRPERSON: So we delete then paragraph 3.
MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
Would you continue, paragraph 4.
BRIG SCHOON
"During the period before the mentioned dated, Gen van der Merwe informed me that the Minister of Law and Order had given ..."
....(intervention)
MR VISSER: That was actually Police.
BRIG SCHOON: Yes, of Police.
"... had given authorisation to give handgrenades to certain activists. This group of activists was infiltrated by Joe Mamasela, who presented himself as an MK member. I was informed that the activists intended to attack targets which they had already identified and that they were actually waiting to obtain weapons."
MR VISSER: Brigadier, what was your position in the Security Police, during June 1985?
BRIG SCHOON: At that stage I was in command of Group C, at the Security Head Office.
MR VISSER: And what precisely did Group C involve?
BRIG SCHOON: It was generally known as the Counter-Terrorism Unit.
MR VISSER: Yes. Now yesterday, Adv Booyens put it to Gen van der Merwe that Mr Hattingh's recollection is that there was a meeting during which you and Gen van der Merwe and he were present, when the issue of the adjusted detonators was discussed. Do you have any recollection of that?
BRIG SCHOON: Yes, Chairperson, I can recall that we discussed this matter and if I recall correctly, Col Hattingh said that it would be somewhat of a difficult task to adjust these items, or that he did not have the expertise to do so.
MR VISSER: Very well, we will get to that later. What did the authorisation involve, according to you?
BRIG SCHOON: The authorisation involved that the detonators of the handgrenades be adjusted to such an extent that there would be no time delay after it had been activated and that the handgrenade would thus explode, either near or next to the person who tossed it. I was given the order to arrange that certain Russian manufactured handgrenades be adjusted as such.
MR VISSER: You have just referred to the fact that Mr Hattingh may have been present, is it your recollection that you did indeed speak to someone dealing with explosives at the Technical Division?
BRIG SCHOON: Yes.
MR VISSER: And are you prepared to accept that it may have been Col Hattingh?
BRIG SCHOON: Yes, it may have been him, because he was in command of the Demolitions Unit at that stage.
MR VISSER: Very well. Your recollection as you have just stated it, was that there was doubt regarding whether this could be done or not. Can you recall what you did then?
BRIG SCHOON: Chairperson, I then went to Special Forces, and according to my recollection I spoke to Gen Joop Joubert and asked whether he would be able to conduct these adjustments for us.
MR VISSER: Now Gen Joubert has written a letter ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: It's Exhibit D.
MR VISSER: Exhibit D. Thank you, Mr Chairman.
... in which he stated that he indeed was not the Commander of Special Forces on the 25th or 26th of June, and that he cannot recall any discussion with you regarding this subject, and that he believes that you are mistaken. Now Mr Wagener did some homework last night and he has an extract which he gave to me, from the Armed Forces hearing of 8th of October 1997, and in this extract the Defence Force gave evidence in Cate Town and Gen Joubert said the following - he is asked, at the top of the page:
"You were the General commanding Spes Forces, from 1985 to the end of 1988, is that right?"
And Maj-Gen Joubert says:
"The last, it is quite correct, but I started earlier, I was appointed up to the 31st."
And then Mr Goosen says:
"Formally you were the Commanding Officer from the 1st of November 1985, but before that you were already involved in Special Forces some months beforehand."
Gen Joubert says:
"Yes, for the handing-over process."
Chairperson, I'm not certain whether there's any sense in handing it in, it's only that passage.
Brigadier, are you prepared to accept in truth and in fact, that Gen Joubert was not the Commander of Spes Forces in June 1985?
BRIG SCHOON: Yes, I would accept that.
MR VISSER: Now then that brings us to the question of who you spoke to. Can you recall the person that you spoke to, or can you simply recall that you spoke to the Head of Special Forces?
BRIG SCHOON: Initially I tried to bring the person to the date and the date which I initially had was that this incident took place in 1986, in which case it would then have been Gen Joubert that I had consulted. However, seeing that the incident is placed in the middle of 1985, I will have to accept that it was not him and that it was, or may have been Gen Liebenberg that I spoke to.
MR VISSER: What you are saying is that you are inferring who you spoke to in terms of the date?
BRIG SCHOON: That is correct.
MR VISSER: So you have no independent recollection yourself regarding who you spoke to?
BRIG SCHOON: No.
MR VISSER: But you know that you spoke to the Head of Special Forces?
BRIG SCHOON: That is correct.
MR VISSER: Then what did you ask him?
BRIG SCHOON: I asked whether it was possible to modify these handgrenades so that they would explode immediately upon the activation of the detonator.
MR VISSER: And what did the Head of Special Forces say to you?
BRIG SCHOON: He said it wouldn't be a problem and that they could do so.
MR VISSER: And from paragraph 8 onwards, please proceed.
BRIG SCHOON
"I then arranged that a certain amount of Russian manufactured handgrenade detonators, approximately 24, be taken to Special Forces for modification."
MR VISSER: Can we just pause there?
BRIG SCHOON: Were there also detonators which were given to the Technical Division, the explosives experts of the Police?
BRIG SCHOON: They had weaponry which they had reclaimed for safekeeping, because they were demolitions experts and the only authorised personnel who were permitted to keep these items in supply.
MR VISSER: But no, what my question is, in terms of your discussion with Hattingh, would they also have adjusted handgrenade detonators which may have been applied during this incident?
BRIG SCHOON: I believe that they may have tried to do so.
MR VISSER: Very well. The fact is that you didn't have anything physical further to do with these things.
BRIG SCHOON: I did not handle these items myself.
MR VISSER: And you also stated that in paragraph 9 and 10 of your statement in Exhibit E.
BRIG SCHOON: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And later you heard that something else was required.
BRIG SCHOON: That is correct, I later was informed that a limpet mine was also required and that this also had to be adjusted.
MR VISSER: And who did you give that order to?
BRIG SCHOON: Also to the Demolitions Unit.
MR VISSER: That would be Mr Hattingh and his people?
BRIG SCHOON: Yes, that's correct.
MR VISSER: And as far as you know, that adjustment was carried out with regard to the limpet mine?
BRIG SCHOON: Yes.
MR VISSER: And as far as you know, even though you yourself were not personally involved, it later fell into the hands of Brig Cronje's people and ultimately with Mr Mamasela.
BRIG SCHOON: Yes, that is correct.
MR VISSER: At all times you were aware of the purpose behind the adjustments of the detonators of the handgrenades and the limpet mines.
BRIG SCHOON: Yes, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And the aim was to give these items to persons who were going to attack targets.
BRIG SCHOON: Yes, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Did you have any personal motive in the execution of these tasks?
BRIG SCHOON: None whatsoever.
MR VISSER: Any personal vengeance or malice which you harboured?
BRIG SCHOON: None.
MR VISSER: You acted under the orders of Gen van der Merwe?
BRIG SCHOON: That is correct.
MR VISSER: Were you ever informed that the order had come from somewhere else?
BRIG SCHOON: Yes, he mentioned that it came from the Minister of Police.
MR VISSER: Did you commit these acts or omissions as part of your duties and in your opposition of the struggle?
BRIG SCHOON: Yes, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And you also refer to the summary give by Gen van der Merwe regarding the background of the struggle, as given before this Committee?
BRIG SCHOON: That's correct.
MR VISSER: And it was aimed at supporters of the liberation movements?
BRIG SCHOON: That is correct.
MR VISSER: Did you also do this in order to combat political violence as you viewed it?
BRIG SCHOON: Yes, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: An d in this manner to maintain the government and the National Party, to maintain them in power?
BRIG SCHOON: Yes.
MR VISSER: Would you bear with me a moment please, Mr Chairman.
Brigadier Schoon, did you have any knowledge of the precise course of events in terms of which these handgrenades or at least the detonators then, were prepared? Did you know precisely when Mr Mamasela became involved in the action and what precisely he did and what precisely Brig Cronje did and so forth?
BRIG SCHOON: No, I didn't.
MR VISSER: You have no knowledge thereof?
BRIG SCHOON: No, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Because it would appear that Mr Mamasela infiltrated the group after the approval had been given by the Minister. You wouldn't know about that?
BRIG SCHOON: No, I don't know anything about that.
MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman, that is the evidence-in-chief, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Visser. Mr Hattingh, do you have any questions you would like to ask the witness?
MR HATTINGH: I have no questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Booyens?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman.
Brigadier, when did you retire?
BRIG SCHOON: At the end of October 1989.
MR BOOYENS: How old were you then?
BRIG SCHOON: At that stage I was 59.
MR BOOYENS: Now Brigadier, I don't believe that there's any kind of factual dispute between us, I think that it is actually more about what people remember or what they believe they remember. Let us first deal with the meeting during which Mr Paul Hattingh was present. Mr Hattingh tells me that he recalls clearly that at the meeting he had already been called in regarding the technical viability of the proposition to adjust the detonator of a handgrenade. He himself said that he knew that it could be done but it would be difficult, but that he couldn't give you a final answer, that he had to discuss this with Wal du Toit, who was from the Technical Division. It resided theoretically below him, but it was an independent division from the Security Branch and he had to discuss it with them because if anybody could do it, then they could. Is it possible that it may been in Wal du Toit's division?
BRIG SCHOON: It is very possible.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Booyens, what was that name again? Du Toit you said.
MR BOOYENS: Mr Wal du Toit.
CHAIRPERSON: Wal du Toit.
MR BOOYENS: That's one of the applicants, Mr Chairman.
And Mr Hattingh says that it is his recollection that he then did discuss the matter with Mr du Toit and that Mr du Toit said yes, he thinks that they'd be able to do it. You have no dispute with that?
BRIG SCHOON: Not at all.
MR BOOYENS: Now I see in your statement, in paragraph 8, this is Exhibit E to which you have just referred, you say
"I then arranged that a certain amount of Russian manufactured handgrenade detonators be taken to Special Forces."
Can you give us more details, would the Explosives Division have taken it to Special Forces?
BRIG SCHOON: Yes, I arranged for that.
MR BOOYENS: Can you recall who you arranged this with?
BRIG SCHOON: No.
MR BOOYENS: You see I'm wondering, because Mr Hattingh or anybody, none of them have a recollection that they ever received a modified weapon from Special Forces. Is it possible that you may be under the impression that you said take it to Special Forces, but that they already know that the Technical Division could do it and then took it to Technical Division and that is where the modification was undertaken?
BRIG SCHOON: No, the modification was executed at Special Forces.
MR BOOYENS: Did you receive later confirmation that it had been done at Special Forces?
BRIG SCHOON: Yes, the person who performed the modification there contacted me after the items were ready and then I once again arranged with the Demolitions Unit to fetch it.
MR BOOYENS: You cannot recall with who at Demolitions you arranged for them to fetch it?
BRIG SCHOON: No.
MR BOOYENS: Then it would appear to me that it is entirely possible because I can assure you that Mr du Toit would definitely not apply for something if he didn't have anything to do with it. I don't believe that anybody is that enthusiastic to appear before this Committee. Is it then possible that the right hand may not have known what the left hand was doing and an order may have come from Mr Hattingh and the others, that Mr du Toit and the others would modify another group of detonators and ultimately there were two sets of detonators and two sets of handgrenades which arrived at Demolitions?
BRIG SCHOON: I don't know about it.
MR BOOYENS: But you wouldn't be able to exclude the possibility?
BRIG SCHOON: No, I cannot dispute it.
MR BOOYENS: Well it would appear to me that this is probably what happened. And possibly - just with regard tot he limpet mine, this modification of the limpet mine was not undertaken by Mr Hattingh's division, the Demolitions Division, but was undertaken by Mr Wal du Toit in his division.
BRIG SCHOON: Yes, I later heard that.
MR BOOYENS: Thank you Chairperson, I have nothing further.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Booyens. Mr Cornelius, do you have any questions?
MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chair, no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mafora, do you have any questions you'd like to ask?
MR MAFORA: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAFORA
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Lockhat, would you like to put some questions?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT: Thank you, Chairperson.
Brigadier Schoon, in your first meeting or your meetings with Gen van der Merwe, were you informed as to the reasons for this Zero-Zero Operation?
BRIG SCHOON: I cannot recall that, Chairperson, although the reports which went through to him in this regard would have arrived at my desk as well and I would have been aware of it.
MS LOCKHAT: So you can't recall that these COSAS members were problem persons in the area and that certain policemen's homes were being attacked and therefore they needed this operation?
BRIG SCHOON: Chairperson, that information was conveyed to me and I was aware of it.
MS LOCKHAT: Tell me, your usual procedure, would you say that your usual procedure would go to the Head of Special Forces to actually give him this instruction to prepare these handgrenades?
BRIG SCHOON: No, not to give in instructions, I went to him and it was simply out of politeness that one would go to the commander and not to his subordinates, but I went to him with this request, which he then granted.
MS LOCKHAT: And you say that is Mr Liebenberg, is that correct?
BRIG SCHOON: Yes Chairperson, if it was not Gen Joubert, then it must have been Gen Liebenberg. But I do doubt this.
MS LOCKHAT: I just want to refer you to your Section 29 hearing. That is contained in bundle 2A, Chairperson, from page 317. I want to refer you to page 319. Just further down you say
"I think there was a small amount, and if I say "small amount", I do not want to ..."
...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: What line are you referring to?
MS LOCKHAT: Page 319, Chairperson, it's just ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: They've got lines down the side, is it 115 of ...(intervention)
MS LOCKHAT: It's 35, just below 35, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Just below 35, thank you.
MS LOCKHAT: Then you go further
"I do not want to commit myself to a figure, but it may have been a dozen or two."
Is that what you requested, for a dozen or two of handgrenades?
BRIG SCHOON: Yes, that is correct. I just want to add that I did not ask Special Forces to provide the detonators, we ourselves provided it. And according to the best of my knowledge, it was approximately 24, which was then delivered to them.
MS LOCKHAT: Where did you obtain these handgrenades?
BRIG SCHOON: Chairperson, these were handgrenades which were taken into possession during the course of regular police activities.
MS LOCKHAT: And then Adv Goosen asks you, at line 42
"Yes, yes, and during the discussion of that incident, who was directly involved there, with the planning thereof?"
And then you respond:
"Well I think it was Gen van der ..."
And then he goes on:
"According to your knowledge."
You further state:
"It was I, I have an idea that it was Gen van der Merwe and Cronje and I may have been involved."
Just explain that.
BRIG SCHOON: Yes, Chairperson, it was as it is known here, Gen van der Merwe who started the whole matter, Brig Cronje was involved and after that I also became involved in the provision or the preparation of the handgrenade detonators.
MS LOCKHAT: Just the next question that also Adv Goosen put to you regarding black handgrenades, so that they could be identified. It's just below line 10.
CHAIRPERSON: ... 20.
MS LOCKHAT: That is correct, Chairperson, page 320. He asked you
"Do you know anything about so-called black handgrenades?"
"No, can you inform me some more?"
So I just want to check with you, was it possible that these handgrenades could have been coloured as black handgrenades in order to actually identify that these were the handgrenades that were booby-trapped?
BRIG SCHOON: Chairperson, I never saw these items, so consequently I cannot say whether they were coloured or painted, but I would accept that the detonators which were intercepted or modified would have been marked in some way so that they could be identified as dangerous.
MS LOCKHAT: And then just at line 45, Adv Goosen asks you another question
"Now to launch such an operation, from where would approval have to be obtained?"
And then you responded:
"I should think that it would have to come from the State Security Council."
Can you just elaborate on that for us, what did you mean by that?
BRIG SCHOON: Well Chairperson, such an operation couldn't simply be launched from the lower levels from the average Joe Soap, it would have to be a decision that had been taken on a relatively high level and I knew that - at that stage I might not have remembered it, that the Minister of Police had approved the operation.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Brigadier, just on this point. Why would you say that you would believe that it should have got approval from such a high level? Why I ask the question is that we have heard many applications involving operations also of a very serious nature, which resulted in the death of people, which never went beyond, approval-wise, beyond yourself for instance or at least beyond head office of the Security Police.
BRIG SCHOON: Chairperson, this was first in its kind and there had not been previous incidents such as this, that is why I regarded it as an exceptional operation.
MS LOCKHAT: Brigadier, so when you were informed that these people were actually going to be, could be injured, eliminated, did you in yourself agree with this operation? ...(end of side A of tape)
BRIG SCHOON: ...(inaudible)
MS LOCKHAT: .... commander.
BRIG SCHOON: Please repeat the question.
MS LOCKHAT: Your commander, was it ...(intervention)
BRIG SCHOON: General van der Merwe was my senior.
MS LOCKHAT: Why I'm asking you this, in your mind do you feel that you were just following instructions in this instance?
BRIG SCHOON: Yes, Chairperson.
MS LOCKHAT: Did you feel that you could tell Gen van der Merwe that you did not want to proceed with the elimination of persons, could you be in that position to do that?
BRIG SCHOON: Yes, I was in that position, but I didn't because I believed that it was urgently necessary for something to be done about the tossing of these handgrenades to innocent people.
MS LOCKHAT: So what you're saying is that you could have told him look, I don't want to be part of this operation?
BRIG SCHOON: Yes, I could have said so.
MS LOCKHAT: But then you thought it was necessary though?
BRIG SCHOON: Yes, I thought so.
MS LOCKHAT: Thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Visser, do you have any re-examination?
MR VISSER: None thank you, Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER
CHAIRPERSON: Adv Gcabashe, do you have any questions you'd like to ask?
ADV GCABASHE: No thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malan?
MR MALAN: No questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Brigadier Schoon, I'd just like to ask you, the structures, we've heard that there was a Technical Division within the Security Police, is that correct?
BRIG SCHOON: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that where Col Hattingh worked?
BRIG SCHOON: Yes, Chairperson, that is where he worked. At the Demolitions Division, he was in command of Explosives.
CHAIRPERSON: And Mr Wal du Toit, where did he work?
BRIG SCHOON: He was in Technical.
CHAIRPERSON: And the Special Forces, why did you got to Special Forces and not to your Explosives or Technical Division?
BRIG SCHOON: Chairperson, we approached them first and ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: I want to know why if you had your own technical people.
BRIG SCHOON: Because they couldn't do it at that stage.
CHAIRPERSON: And is there any reason why, any particular reason why you sent plus-minus 24 grenades for modification?
BRIG SCHOON: Chairperson, not the grenades themselves, but the detonators.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, the detonators, what made you choose that number?
BRIG SCHOON: Chairperson, it was simply so that we could have quite a few in stock.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether numbers were mentioned at all, as to how many people were to be the targets?
BRIG SCHOON: Chairperson, I don't believe that any pertinent number was mentioned, but the initial information was that there was a small group who were interested in continuing with this operation.
CHAIRPERSON: And then you said that you were later informed that a limpet mine also required modification. Who informed you about that and how much later did that information come to you?
SCHOON: Chairperson, that was approximately at the same time and it was Brig Cronje.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you know why a limpet mine, or were you told why a limpet mine was required?
BRIG SCHOON: He told me that there was one of these persons who wanted to blow up a power station or a sub-power station and for those purpose they required a mini limpet mine.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Are there any questions arising out of questions put?
MR VISSER: No, thank you, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Schoon, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down.
BRIG SCHOON: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
